Barzal vs Marner

[Joe n]

If pointing out the truth derails a thread, it deserves to be derailed.

you keep switching the topic you your favourite player Rantanen

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

you keep switching the topic you your favourite player Rantanen

And I allegedly did that by talking about goalies who don't play on the Avs, aren't even in our division, and never mentioning him once in the post you quoted? Really?

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think Barzal and Marner are both playmaking players first, but this is where the similarities end. Barzal plays the more important position. The myth and I am not saying it is coming from you Sidney, of him not playing defensively is a complete lark. To play for Trotz, you have to play D. He has made tremendous strides in that area of the game. He was never bad in that area, he was the Isles best ES player his rookie year at +1 while Tavares leaked at ES at -12.

This year he has taken another step fwd, this is the most complete I have ever seen him and he plays in a much tougher division than Marner does. Also Marner cannot possess the puck like Barzal can, he simply is not the skater Barzal is. Barzal's has the puck so much, as Scotty Bowman used to say the best defence is when your team has the puck.

Barzal is far more important to the Isles than Marner ever would be. Marner is a winger, which is not what the Isles need. One can imagine how many points Barzal would put up if he was on a run and gun team and division. But he and the Isles are thriving symbolically. He's just one of the most elite players in the league possessing the puck.

How is a run and gun team putting up almost identical GA numbers to the legendary Isle's defense? Especially considering it's coming from their 3rd string goalie against 2 recent Art Ross winners instead of the deadly New Jersey offense.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Your overating the goaltending in the West

Gibson has a .905
Quick has .903 though Peterson in the other half starts has a .928 so average about .916
Kuemper has a .913 while raanta gas a .895
Binnington has a .909
Talbot/Kahkonen combine have ~ .916 together
Gruabauer has a .915
Jones/Dubnyk are horrible with a combined sv% less than. .890

Fleury has been elite I'll give you him at .935

Playing against EK, Burns , Vlasic should increase offense. They are some of the worse defensive players in the game. The Avs and knights should be feasting playing against the horrible defense of the Sharks/Yotes/Kings

Rantanen had a great playoff but he has had two back to back poor regular seasosn. Marner had a bad playoffs but has had two better regular seasons and this year he has been a top 5 player this season.

Marner has been better over a longer size these past two years and rantanen hasnt build on a strong playoffs. His production in the playoffs wasnt realistic moving forward and he is showing he is a 80 point player rather than 110 point player. His play is trending downwards vs marner who is becoming one of the best 1st line players going head to head versus Mcdavid/Pettersson/Schiefele and coming out ahead more often than not

Great, now look at Hogberg, Murray, Price and Holtby. None of them have a SV% that starts with a 0.9. Look in the top 10 in SV% and find a North goalie (hint - there isn't one). Look at the last couple of years and tell me where Ottawa finished in terms of defense compared to Arizona, who you claim is "horrible".

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Doesn't sound like you watch the Islanders too often. I love Marner, but they're both very similar. Nothing wrong with that.

if you've decided that Barzal is an equivalent offensive player to Marner while also being a level above defensively and playing a harder position from watching them, that's okay. It just doesn't seem to have much supporting evidence

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This year he has taken another step fwd, this is the most complete I have ever seen him and he plays in a much tougher division than Marner does. Also Marner cannot possess the puck like Barzal can, he simply is not the skater Barzal is. Barzal's has the puck so much, as Scotty Bowman used to say the best defence is when your team has the puck.

Eh, I think Marner's every bit the possession player Barzal is. I think he just does it differently. He's not going to back defenses up with his speed like Barzal can, but I think instead he's more along the lines of elusive than explosive (ie. the difference between Patrick Kane and Connor McDavid in terms of gaining the O-zone).

How much of it is due to linemates being able to finish is hard to tell, but I also think Marner's been more consistently able to generate chances for his linemates by putting the puck in dangerous areas. I think Marner's one of the few players in the league who seems to create a high danger chance almost every time he has the puck.

In terms of pure playmaking ability/vision, I think Marner's ahead in terms of finding the open man when they're in the most dangerous area possible. Where I think Barzal is ahead is due to his skating, he's probably better at beating defenders 1 on 1. Marner's more about dissecting a defense with his patience/vision.

 

[hamzarocks]

Great, now look at Hogberg, Murray, Price and Holtby. None of them have a SV% that starts with a 0.9. Look in the top 10 in SV% and find a North goalie (hint - there isn't one). Look at the last couple of years and tell me where Ottawa finished in terms of defense compared to Arizona, who you claim is "horrible".

The west had 1 elite Goalie this year in fleury

The North has 1 elite goalie this year in Allen.

Overall hoberg/murray are about same level as Jones/dubnyk

Price and holtby have been bad but Allen has been great nd Demkos has been similar to guys like Gibson/Quick/Binnington

Your overeating the Wests defense and goaltending this year.

The Avs should be piling on goals in the division. They havent yet and that's not to the credit of the sharks/kings/Yotes.

It's due to Avalance not finishing and playing as strong offensive suvely as they are capable of.

The yotes got destroyed in 5 with the avalanche having their way offensively in the play ins.

The avalanche got deeper but have not had chemistry and expected production due to Rantanen/Mack under performing so far.

I will give that Covid messed around with them and kept a lot of players out hurting development if chemistry. But moving forward the Avs should be running the division with ease. Rantanen and MacKinnon should be playing at 100+ point paces for the remainder of the year

 

[Joe n]

And I allegedly did that by talking about goalies who don't play on the Avs, aren't even in our division, and never mentioning him once in the post you quoted? Really?

It's almost like Rantanen got hurt last year, missing 28 of the 70 games his team played, and is playing in the best defensive division in the league this year. No, that can't possibly be the reason, it must be that his 1.18 PPG season and his 1.18 PPG career playoff scoring rates must be a fluke. 2 pages ago.

 

[Paul4587]

Marner if you want a player who competes for scoring titles. Barzal if you want to win games in the playoffs.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner. Barzal is a great player, but it's not all that close.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The west had 1 elite Goalie this year in fleury

The North has 1 elite goalie this year in Allen.

Overall hoberg/murray are about same level as Jones/dubnyk

Price and holtby have been bad but Allen has been great nd Demkos has been similar to guys like Gibson/Quick/Binnington

Your overeating the Wests defense and goaltending this year.

The Avs should be piling on goals in the division. They havent yet and that's not to the credit of the sharks/kings/Yotes.

It's due to Avalance not finishing and playing as strong offensive suvely as they are capable of.

The yotes got destroyed in 5 with the avalanche having their way offensively in the play ins.

The avalanche got deeper but have not had chemistry and expected production due to Rantanen/Mack under performing so far.

I will give that Covid messed around with them and kept a lot of players out hurting development if chemistry. But moving forward the Avs should be running the division with ease. Rantanen and MacKinnon should be playing at 100+ point paces for the remainder of the year

Allen has played how many games? 8? Great, there's one "elite" backup.

And, the Avs have only played 7 total games against the Sharks/Kings/Yotes, while playing 4 against Vegas, and 4 against Minnesota. Plus, as you mentioned, covid and injuries aren't helping. Probably won't be "running the division with ease" as long as Vegas still exists, but hopefully things get a little easier going forward.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The fact Barzal dropped from 85 points down to 62 going from Doug "what is defense" Weight to Trotz is proof enough of that.

It's not proof of that... He's dropped off quite a bit on the PP, after putting up a lot of secondary assists there in his first year. He's also had his PP time decrease, and his role has increased. Between his first and second year, he also went from a career high ES and PP OISH% to a career low in both. His underlying metrics in terms of chance generation didn't really change all that much, and it's not like he suddenly became some defensive wizard. People put way too much emphasis on the coaching change.

 

[Cotton]

Marner, better at both ends to such a degree that it eliminates the C>W factor.

 

[Cotton]

Doesn't sound like you watch the Islanders too often. I love Marner, but they're both very similar. Nothing wrong with that.

Nor you the Leafs, Barzal has over 61% oZone starts and a defensive point share of 0.9. Marner gets 53% oZone starts and DPS of 1.3 - with 33pts.

The same year Barzal was 18th in Selke votes, Marner was 14th. Marner is 31st in the league amongst forwards in PK minutes, averaging over 2 minutes a game, Barzal has been on for a total of 9 seconds. Marner also has more takeaways, blocks and a lower xGA. And considering Barzal plays in a “defensive system”, this only makes Marner’s numbers look even better.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Eh, I think Marner's every bit the possession player Barzal is. I think he just does it differently. He's not going to back defenses up with his speed like Barzal can, but I think instead he's more along the lines of elusive than explosive (ie. the difference between Patrick Kane and Connor McDavid in terms of gaining the O-zone).

How much of it is due to linemates being able to finish is hard to tell, but I also think Marner's been more consistently able to generate chances for his linemates by putting the puck in dangerous areas. I think Marner's one of the few players in the league who seems to create a high danger chance almost every time he has the puck.

In terms of pure playmaking ability/vision, I think Marner's ahead in terms of finding the open man when they're in the most dangerous area possible. Where I think Barzal is ahead is due to his skating, he's probably better at beating defenders 1 on 1. Marner's more about dissecting a defense with his patience/vision.

Your reply led me to research possession metrics for both players in relation to the teams they play on and the style both teams play. Reason for not looking at players side by side measuring possession metrics. Quite simply, Trotz teams are almost always near the bottom of the league in CF%. When Washington won the cup, they were 24th in CF%. When The Islanders were the best GA team in the NHL in 18-19, they finished 26th in CF%. They are deceptive when Trotz coaches a team. One can't argue the success of his defensive philosophy.

The one thing I noticed for both players for 18-19 and 20-21 seasons when hockey was normal, Barzal's CF% was generally 5% higher than the team CF%. Marner was about par with the team CF%. What does this mean? It means Barzal impacts possession more positively than Marner. I think Barzal is better 5 v 5. He controls the play with his skating and puck possession.

Regarding playmaking, both elite playmakers. Both are different in the way they impact their teammates. I will agree that Marner's dissection is better than Barzal's, but Barzal's skating and creating space to use his teammates is better.

In the end, I think both players are elite. I always said Marner will be a producer in the NHL. His PPP is better than Barzal's. Is this due to him or his teammates? Probably a little of both. I do think and any unbiased poster would agree the position Barzal plays is harder, when he is the only elite player on his team and gets all of the attention. Marner can slide in without as much attention behind Matthews.

This is a tremendous advangtage. I don't know if Marner would be as effective playing in Barzal's shoes of being the main and at time only player opposing teams game plan against. Marner also gets the benefit of dropping down to Tavares line where he can match up against the 2nd D pairing. Barzal never gets to play against the 2nd pairing D, he gets a steady diet of 1st pairing D men every night.

It's interesting when one can have an intelligent conversation about both players. Your points were listened to, and points were made from my perspective.

 

[IslesBro715]

Marner is a great player if you enjoy getting bounced in the 1st round. His game doesn't translate in the playoffs.

 

[IPS]

Or Kuznetsov had a career year that one year, largely due to his PP assists? His production drop was largely due to getting less points on the PP -- which has zero to do with Trotz's 5on5 system.

The year prior to his career year, he also put up 59 points under Trotz. If Trotz is so great for a centerman's offense, what's with that 59 point season?

That's exactly my point. Barry Trotz 100% does not stifle centerman's offense. It's only being used as an excuse for Barzal cause it's the only way of trying to make it seem like he even belongs in this poll. Barzal's career year happened to be very similar to Kuzy.

Who said he's on par with Marner offensively? I didn't. I'm just calling BS on you thinking that he's "half as good offensively" and your notion that playing in a defensive system won't impact offensive totals at all.

The fact Barzal dropped from 85 points down to 62 going from Doug "what is defense" Weight to Trotz is proof enough of that. Or is your conclusion Barzal simply forgot how to play hockey over the summer?

Interesting double standard you're trying to employ here...

Barzal dropped from 85 points to 62 because of a defensive system yet Kuzy dropoff was cause of less PP assists? You're really talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Taking everything into account - there's no evidence whatsoever that playing under Trotz should hurt anybody's offense.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Marner is a great player if you enjoy getting bounced in the 1st round. His game doesn't translate in the playoffs.

He's far too soft.

 

[IPS]

It's not proof of that... He's dropped off quite a bit on the PP, after putting up a lot of secondary assists there in his first year. He's also had his PP time decrease, and his role has increased. Between his first and second year, he also went from a career high ES and PP OISH% to a career low in both. His underlying metrics in terms of chance generation didn't really change all that much, and it's not like he suddenly became some defensive wizard. People put way too much emphasis on the coaching change.

Dead bang on here Dekes. Barzal's statistical picture really didn't change at all from year to year, the PP time seemed to be the deciding factor. And it's ironic too, because PP time didn't get taken into account whatsoever years prior when it was Leafs players getting less of it. All the same posters too funny enough.

 

[Zybalto]

One thing that was shackling both Marner (and other stars on the Leafs) was Babcock's stubbornness about not playing stars bigger minutes.

Since Keefe took over as head coach on November 20th, 2019, here are the top 10 forwards for 5v5 points/60 (out of 149 forwards with at least 800 minutes played):

1. Panarin
2. Stone
3. Malkin
4. Pasta
5: Marner

(Barzal is 30th on this list behind Chris Kreider)

Looking at defensive play, Marner comes in at 43rd best for xGA/60 REL and Barzal in at 134th.

Straight goals against/60 REL has Marner at 34th best on the list and Barzal at 119th (behind Phil Kessel)



Marner has also become an amazingly reliable forward on the PK with above average underlying stats. Barzal does not PK for the Isles.


How about the powerplay?

Top ten forwards in the NHL for GF/60 on the Powerplay since Keefe was hired (out of 51 forwards with at least 200 minutes played):

1. Bergeron
2. Marner
3. McDavid
4. RNH
5. Draisaitl
6. Marchand
7. Matthews
8. Wheeler
9. Pasta
10. Scheifele

Marner makes such a difference on the powerplay no matter who he is on the ice with. Maybe the most elite vision in the game over almost the last full season.

Number 51 out of 51 on this list?

Matthew Barzal

 

[IslesBro715]

That's exactly my point. Barry Trotz 100% does not stifle centerman's offense. It's only being used as an excuse for Barzal cause it's the only way of trying to make it seem like he even belongs in this poll. Barzal's career year happened to be very similar to Kuzy.




Interesting double standard you're trying to employ here...

Barzal dropped from 85 points to 62 because of a defensive system yet Kuzy dropoff was cause of less PP assists? You're really talking out of both sides of your mouth here.

Taking everything into account - there's no evidence whatsoever that playing under Trotz should hurt anybody's offense.

it wasnt just Barzal, the entire team dropped off offensively, what more evidence do you need?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Taking everything into account - there's no evidence whatsoever that playing under Trotz should hurt anybody's offense.

Well Kuzy did have 37 points in 80 games under Trotz once, he also only managed 52 points in 82 games another year. Ovie had one of his worst statistical years under Trotz also, 33 goals, and 69 points in 82 games. No evidence whatsoever is not entirely accurate.

 

[CatchyTune]

Marner is a great player if you enjoy getting bounced in the 1st round. His game doesn't translate in the playoffs.

Marner has a 0.84PPG in the playoffs and Barzal has a 0.8

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.