Barkov vs Eichel

[Beezeral]

This is a little disingenuous.

Career PPG:

Barkov: .77
Eichel: .88

Additionally it is flat wrong. Eichel had 57 points in 2016-2017 and Barkov only had 52.

fair enough. I did the looking quickly and got my numbers wrong. However, they have been relatively even the last three years. Their offensive games are very close. Being generous I could give the edge ti Eichel. However, there is no debate who is the vastly superior defensive player.

 

[ookhaab]

now that he finally has a winger who can actually score consistently

More like a winger who has been scoring goals at unsustainable rate and is just waiting for regression.

 

[pb1300]

Possesses more skill at playing hockey.

Typical childish response from someone who doesnt know what they are talking about.

 

[SotasicA]

Typical childish response from someone who doesnt know what they are talking about.

I know Eichel has better numbers on worse teams and he is young and has more upside. He's a stud franchise center, a superstar on that other tier (Matthews-tier!), whereas Barkov is a nice top line player to have, solid, with good two-way instincts (though his defensive play is massively overrated on HFBoards: he makes plenty of mistakes as does anyone with the kind of minutes he plays).

 

[Panthaz89]

More like a winger who has been scoring goals at unsustainable rate and is just waiting for regression.

yeah slowing down to a 40+ goal pace considering 60 obviously isn't likely.

 

[Mattilaus]

fair enough. I did the looking quickly and got my numbers wrong. However, they have been relatively even the last three years. Their offensive games are very close. Being generous I could give the edge ti Eichel. However, there is no debate who is the vastly superior defensive player.

I agree Barkov is far superior defensively. The only thing I think warrants mentioning is that the last three years were Eichel's first three in the league, Barkov had already been in the league for two years at that point. You are comparing Eichel's rookie year to Barkov's third and saying they are almost equal offensively. Not entirely fair.

Eichel:
D+1: .69 ppg
D+2: .93 ppg
D+3: .95 ppg

Barkov:
D+1: .44 ppg
D+2: .50 ppg
D+3:.89 ppg

 

[SotasicA]

I agree Barkov is far superior defensively. The only thing I think warrants mentioning is that the last three years were Eichel's first three in the league, Barkov had already been in the league for two years at that point. You are comparing Eichel's rookie year to Barkov's third and saying they are almost equal offensively. Not entirely fair.

Eichel:
D+1: .69 ppg
D+2: .93 ppg
D+3: .95 ppg

Barkov:
D+1: .44 ppg
D+2: .50 ppg
D+3:.89 ppg

The two aren't even close offensively. Eichel is far superior with the puck. Barkov's redeeming quality is his intangible defensive awareness that has been vastly overrated. If they played head-to-head, with all things being equal, Eichel beats Barkov 6 days a week. Al with a flawless performance can tie one game.

 

[Beezeral]

The two aren't even close offensively. Eichel is far superior with the puck. Barkov's redeeming quality is his intangible defensive awareness that has been vastly overrated. If they played head-to-head, with all things being equal, Eichel beats Barkov 6 days a week. Al with a flawless performance can tie one game.

And yet both players went head to head recently and Barkov dominated Eichel. It’s funny watching you crap on every Panther player you can find

I agree Barkov is far superior defensively. The only thing I think warrants mentioning is that the last three years were Eichel's first three in the league, Barkov had already been in the league for two years at that point. You are comparing Eichel's rookie year to Barkov's third and saying they are almost equal offensively. Not entirely fair.

Eichel:
D+1: .69 ppg
D+2: .93 ppg
D+3: .95 ppg

Barkov:
D+1: .44 ppg
D+2: .50 ppg
D+3:.89 ppg

Barkov played his first year in the NHL at 18. Eichel was 19 his rookie year. They are just over a year apart in actual age. Like I said. The past three years their offensive production has been similar. You can keep trying to say Eichel is far superior offensively, but the reality is that it isn’t true.

 

[Mattilaus]

And yet both players went head to head recently and Barkov dominated Eichel. It’s funny watching you crap on every Panther player you can find


Barkov played his first year in the NHL at 18. Eichel was 19 his rookie year. They are just over a year apart in actual age. Like I said. The past three years their offensive production has been similar. You can keep trying to say Eichel is far superior offensively, but the reality is that it isn’t true.

Fine we'll even start Barkov at his D+2 comparing to Eichel's rookie year:

Eichel:
D+1: .69 ppg
D+2: .93 ppg
D+3: .95 ppg

Barkov:
D+2: .50 ppg
D+3:.89 ppg
D+4: .85 ppg

Eichel has still been better than Barkov literally every season and this is allowing Barkov a year of NHL development that Eichel didn't have. See this is the problem, I can be objective and completely agree with you that Barkov is better defensively, but you aren't capable of the same in return with regard to offense even when presented with the clear data. It's very clear Eichel is a superior offensive player without the need for you to be "very generous" to Eichel.

 

[CptPicard]

The two aren't even close offensively. Eichel is far superior with the puck. Barkov's redeeming quality is his intangible defensive awareness that has been vastly overrated. If they played head-to-head, with all things being equal, Eichel beats Barkov 6 days a week. Al with a flawless performance can tie one game.

[mod] I suggest you watch a Panthers game or two.

 

[pb1300]

The two aren't even close offensively. Eichel is far superior with the puck. Barkov's redeeming quality is his intangible defensive awareness that has been vastly overrated. If they played head-to-head, with all things being equal, Eichel beats Barkov 6 days a week. Al with a flawless performance can tie one game.

Barkov has elite hands and playmaking abilities, so since Eichel is “far superior with the puck,” I guess he is the second coming of Gretzky. Gotcha.

You really should watch other teams players play, and know a bit of their history, before making ridiculously incorrect comments about them.

 

[Beezeral]

Fine we'll even start Barkov at his D+2 comparing to Eichel's rookie year:

Eichel:
D+1: .69 ppg
D+2: .93 ppg
D+3: .95 ppg

Barkov:
D+2: .50 ppg
D+3:.89 ppg
D+4: .85 ppg

Eichel has still been better than Barkov literally every season and this is allowing Barkov a year of NHL development that Eichel didn't have. See this is the problem, I can be objective and completely agree with you that Barkov is better defensively, but you aren't capable of the same in return with regard to offense even when presented with the clear data. It's very clear Eichel is a superior offensive player without the need for you to be "very generous" to Eichel.

Instead of moving years around. Let’s do this. Who was the better offensive player last year? We both know it was Barkov. Their offensive progression has come at different rates. Barkov entered the league at 18 and was asked to play shut down defense against opposing teams top line from day one. Eichel didn’t have that responsibility. He started as the better offensive player, then Barkov closed the gap. Last year he was the better offensive player while having defensive responsibilities Eichel has never had to endure. So far this year Eichel has put up better offensive numbers but the gap is nowhere near big enough to make up for the gap between them defensively.

 

[Mattilaus]

Instead of moving years around. Let’s do this. Who was the better offensive player last year? We both know it was Barkov. Their offensive progression has come at different rates. Barkov entered the league at 18 and was asked to play shut down defense against opposing teams top line from day one. Eichel didn’t have that responsibility. He started as the better offensive player, then Barkov closed the gap. Last year he was the better offensive player while having defensive responsibilities Eichel has never had to endure. So far this year Eichel has put up better offensive numbers but the gap is nowhere near big enough to make up for the gap between them defensively.

Okay, I don't care about Barkov's defence and his defensive responsibilities. I have said at least three times in this thread I agree Barkov is better defensively and that has zero bearing on who is better offensively. It's clear you don't want a discussion because your argument is not based in fact and you have done nothing but disregard the large amount of evidence provided to you. I have shown you stats proving your initial assessment (Eichel having never outscored Barkov) to be wrong, I have then shown you stats to indicate that over their careers (both PPG and PPG for their first three years) you are wrong, I have then shown you stats favoring your player (Eichel's rookie year vs. Barkov D+2 and forward) as you requested yourself and they still indicate you to be wrong, yet you refuse to change you view point and provide zero evidence yourself other than anecdotal.

Last thing I'll say via corsica:

Quality of competition for both for the last 3 years:

Barkov CF% QoC: 49.94
Eichel CF% QoC: 50.17

However quality of teammate?

Barkov CF% QoT: 49.43
Eichel CF% QoT: 48.03

Eichel has faced better competition with worse linemates. The differences here are actually pretty negligible but the point is stats don't seem to indicate Barkov plays against harder competition than Eichel does.

Corsica | Skater Stats

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Lmao. Barkov hurt you so bad and I love it.

Or eichels just better in his view?

 

[Panthaz89]

Barkov has elite hands and playmaking abilities, so since Eichel is “far superior with the puck,” I guess he is the second coming of Gretzky. Gotcha.

You really should watch other teams players play, and know a bit of their history, before making ridiculously incorrect comments about them.

Sam has elite hands and playmaking ability too but hes no where near Eichel his speed and transition game is simply huge in today's NHL which is why he gets so many assists due to getting the puck in the opponents zone and keeping it there....

 

[Beezeral]

Okay, I don't care about Barkov's defence and his defensive responsibilities. I have said at least three times in this thread I agree Barkov is better defensively and that has zero bearing on who is better offensively. It's clear you don't want a discussion because your argument is not based in fact and you have done nothing but disregard the large amount of evidence provided to you. I have shown you stats proving your initial assessment (Eichel having never outscored Barkov) to be wrong, I have then shown you stats to indicate that over their careers (both PPG and PPG for their first three years) you are wrong, I have then shown you stats favoring your player (Eichel's rookie year vs. Barkov D+2 and forward) as you requested yourself and they still indicate you to be wrong, yet you refuse to change you view point and provide zero evidence yourself other than anecdotal.

Last thing I'll say via corsica:

Quality of competition for both for the last 3 years:

Barkov CF% QoC: 49.94
Eichel CF% QoC: 50.17

However quality of teammate?

Barkov CF% QoT: 49.43
Eichel CF% QoT: 48.03

Eichel has faced better competition with worse linemates. The differences here are actually pretty negligible but the point is stats don't seem to indicate Barkov plays against harder competition than Eichel does.

Corsica | Skater Stats

I didn’t say harder competition. I said Barkov is asked to do more and he is. It’s not debatable. Why don’t you look at the offensive zone start percentage of the two players. Eichel’s career oZS% is 57.6%. Barkov’s is 47.7%.

What about killing penalties. For his career Eichel has spent 117 minutes on the PK. Barkov was on the PK for 138 minutes alone last year.
This is my point. Despite being asked to do way more than Eichel, Barkov puts up similar offensive numbers. Last year, Barkov had better offensive numbers by just a little bit. 2016, Eichel had a slight edge. 2015 Barkov had a pretty big edge. This isn’t anecdotal. It’s fact. The gap between the two players offensively is minimal at best and you can easily argue that Barkov has the better offensive game considering how he puts up similar numbers while handling a much tougher burden then Eichel. We don’t know what kind of offensive numbers Barkov would put up if he was deployed in the same manner as Eichel but we do know that the gap between the two is minimal with one player being deployed in an offense first deployment and the other in a defense first deployment.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Explain the "much more skilled" part.

I’m not the one who said originally what you’re asking to him and in return what Response you want him to give, but may I take a stab at this? If you were to create a player like Eichel on NHL 19 you’d see high 80s early 90s for most of his attributes. Barkov too, absolutely....no question about it.

Barkov is an absolute beast defensivly And dynamic offensively with his Finnish flash that can be dazzling, especially on a breakaway.....but Eichel is a more rounded player from an offensive standpoint. His skating is better, he’s more versatile in transition (NHLs best transition player in second half of 16-17 upon returning from ankle injury ahead of even mcdavid utilizing his balance, mobility and speed. The fact he’s returned from two serious high ankle sprains (on both abkles) and continues to be one of the leagues top offensive driving forwards and elite speed skaters is nothing short of remarkable, since these types of injuries linger for months on end and have been known in the past to cut short careers. Not too mention this type of injury that he sustained twice directly effecting the CD area that he uses to pull off his elite skating, where his strides and quick turns stand out as a big reason why he excels so well and can take off at the rate he does. Eichels got a bag of tricks likee Barkov does...., id give Sasha the edge in His handwork decking, stick handling , but eichels are no slouch those areas, his toe drags, theough the legs into the offensive zone and pulling these Moves off in some the most important, crucial times of the games no matter who the defender is, is also absolutely remarkable.

His best attribute when creating plays is how fast he can make passes tape to tape on any spot of the ice. It’s why seemingly whoever he plays with, his skill has elevated their (his linemates) game by a lot, evander kane, Evan Rodrigues, girgensens, Pominville and now jeff skinner....if these guys are on eichels line they produce and usually two or three times as much as they would without him. The numbers clearly back this up and if you’d like I will post them. He’s gotten more with less then arguably anyone in this league not named mcdavid. He was fourth in offensive zone possession just a couple weeks ago and has the most shots in the league. He’s fifth in assists and tenth in points. Generating Chances all the time and he’s even a plus player now..... (plus 9) ,his defensive game has improved considerably since becoming captain.

With that he’s now more accountable and currently the leader as captain and leading scorer of a winning team in a playoff spot, at the moment, we can talk all we want but the eye test is best as you know if you’re a panthers fan not a lot of eyes get on these players but it’s the same with him, just watch it and you don’t have to ask. That doesent mean you’ll agree. But at least you’ll have some Frame of refereence and won’t have to ask why! And this is just the beginning. While the panthers have an impressive top six, eichels never had a player on his line come close to 60 points yet still has 150 points in his last 154 games.

His offensive ceiling is literally as high as anyone in the NHL not #97. This is a few examples of why one would say the skilled part you had in question. They’re both remarkable players at the end of the day despite a few diffeeences there isn’t a big gap but when it comes to skill there isn’t either. As I’ve pointed about above though it’s not ludicrous for someone to merely suggest Eichel had more offensive skill
Then barkov.

I know at the end of the day this is a lengthy read and I wasn’t the one you asked but was that explanation good enough?

 

[pb1300]

I’m not the one who said originally what you’re asking to him and in return what Response you want him to give, but may I take a stab at this? If you were to create a player like Eichel on NHL 19 you’d see high 80s early 90s for most of his attributes. Barkov too, absolutely....no question about it.

Barkov is an absolute beast defensivly And dynamic offensively with his Finnish flash that can be dazzling, especially on a breakaway.....but Eichel is a more rounded player from an offensive standpoint. His skating is better, he’s more versatile in transition (NHLs best transition player in second half of 16-17 upon returning from ankle injury ahead of even mcdavid utilizing his balance, mobility and speed. The fact he’s returned from two serious high ankle sprains (on both abkles) and continues to be one of the leagues top offensive driving forwards and elite speed skaters is nothing short of remarkable, since these types of injuries linger for months on end and have been known in the past to cut short careers. Not too mention this type of injury that he sustained twice directly effecting the CD area that he uses to pull off his elite skating, where his strides and quick turns stand out as a big reason why he excels so well and can take off at the rate he does. Eichels got a bag of tricks likee Barkov does...., id give Sasha the edge in His handwork decking, stick handling , but eichels are no slouch those areas, his toe drags, theough the legs into the offensive zone and pulling these Moves off in some the most important, crucial times of the games no matter who the defender is, is also absolutely remarkable.

His best attribute when creating plays is how fast he can make passes tape to tape on any spot of the ice. It’s why seemingly whoever he plays with, his skill has elevated their (his linemates) game by a lot, evander kane, Evan Rodrigues, girgensens, Pominville and now jeff skinner....if these guys are on eichels line they produce and usually two or three times as much as they would without him. The numbers clearly back this up and if you’d like I will post them. He’s gotten more with less then arguably anyone in this league not named mcdavid. He was fourth in offensive zone possession just a couple weeks ago and has the most shots in the league. He’s fifth in assists and tenth in points. Generating Chances all the time and he’s even a plus player now..... (plus 9) ,his defensive game has improved considerably since becoming captain.

With that he’s now more accountable and currently the leader as captain and leading scorer of a winning team in a playoff spot, at the moment, we can talk all we want but the eye test is best as you know if you’re a panthers fan not a lot of eyes get on these players but it’s the same with him, just watch it and you don’t have to ask. That doesent mean you’ll agree. But at least you’ll have some Frame of refereence and won’t have to ask why! And this is just the beginning. While the panthers have an impressive top six, eichels never had a player on his line come close to 60 points yet still has 150 points in his last 154 games.

His offensive ceiling is literally as high as anyone in the NHL not #97. This is a few examples of why one would say the skilled part you had in question. They’re both remarkable players at the end of the day despite a few diffeeences there isn’t a big gap but when it comes to skill there isn’t either. As I’ve pointed about above though it’s not ludicrous for someone to merely suggest Eichel had more offensive skill
Then barkov.

I know at the end of the day this is a lengthy read and I wasn’t the one you asked but was that explanation good enough?

I don’t mind people thinking that one player is better than the other (you are entitled to your opinion), but these morons with the AINEC or one being much more skilled comments, are either just trolling, or don’t watch other teams play.

Aside from Eichel being the faster of the two, I can literally say the same things in regards to Barkov. And in regards to speed, Barkov has improved in his skating since day one, and while he is no McDavid out there, his acceleration, speed, and strength has much improved, and is an advantage of his now. He is the epitome of how you want to see a player develop from draft, to where he is now.

Barkov’s biggest flaw, if you can find one in his game, is that he is too unselfish. He tends to overlook the shot, just because he wants to get his teammates involved all the time, and he is leaving goals/points on the ice because of that. Aside from that, you can’t find a flaw in his game. He’s established himself as arguably the premier two-way forward in this league. With Bergeron out, he is a clear front runner for the Selke, while still putting up PPG numbers.

 

[FinlandPanther]

Or eichels just better in his view?

He took Kapanen over barkov. He’s the worst poster on the entire hfboards and hates barkov for some reason.

 

[Yamazaki]

As a leafs fan - Eichel

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Sam has elite hands and playmaking ability too but hes no where near Eichel his speed and transition game is simply huge in today's NHL which is why he gets so many assists due to getting the puck in the opponents zone and keeping it there....

Sam who? Reinhart? No he doesn't.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Fine we'll even start Barkov at his D+2 comparing to Eichel's rookie year:

Eichel:
D+1: .69 ppg
D+2: .93 ppg
D+3: .95 ppg

Barkov:
D+2: .50 ppg
D+3:.89 ppg
D+4: .85 ppg

Eichel has still been better than Barkov literally every season and this is allowing Barkov a year of NHL development that Eichel didn't have. See this is the problem, I can be objective and completely agree with you that Barkov is better defensively, but you aren't capable of the same in return with regard to offense even when presented with the clear data. It's very clear Eichel is a superior offensive player without the need for you to be "very generous" to Eichel.

Not saying you did this, but I've had many arguments with Sabres fans where I showed statistically that matthews is the better player offensively over eichel only to have the sabre fans tell me the stats dont mean everything

 

[Mattilaus]

Not saying you did this, but I've had many arguments with Sabres fans where I showed statistically that matthews is the better player offensively over eichel only to have the sabre fans tell me the stats dont mean everything

Well that is cool but you noted right off the bad that you aren't saying I did this and you are correct, I haven't, so what relevance does this have to my argument? I suggest you look at my post history with regard to Matthews and Eichel. I have indicated my position is that Matthews is better in almost any thread or poll regarding the two of them going back quite a bit. Further, if you are saying those Sabres fans who you saw do this were/are wrong for disregarding your stats, then you must agree now that I am right with regard to Eichel.

 

[Mattilaus]

I didn’t say harder competition. I said Barkov is asked to do more and he is. It’s not debatable. Why don’t you look at the offensive zone start percentage of the two players. Eichel’s career oZS% is 57.6%. Barkov’s is 47.7%.

What about killing penalties. For his career Eichel has spent 117 minutes on the PK. Barkov was on the PK for 138 minutes alone last year.
This is my point. Despite being asked to do way more than Eichel, Barkov puts up similar offensive numbers. Last year, Barkov had better offensive numbers by just a little bit. 2016, Eichel had a slight edge. 2015 Barkov had a pretty big edge. This isn’t anecdotal. It’s fact. The gap between the two players offensively is minimal at best and you can easily argue that Barkov has the better offensive game considering how he puts up similar numbers while handling a much tougher burden then Eichel. We don’t know what kind of offensive numbers Barkov would put up if he was deployed in the same manner as Eichel but we do know that the gap between the two is minimal with one player being deployed in an offense first deployment and the other in a defense first deployment.

Cool talk, Barkov kills more penalties which again has literally nothing to do with offense. Look, you want to lean on the fact that D+3 and 2 years older Barkov with 2 NHL seasons under his belt putting up more points than a rookie Eichel makes him the better player offensively now? Be my guest. I am not the one who looks ridiculous. Not wasting more time posting well reason arguments with stats to someone who doesn't read them.

 

[hockeeyyy]

Not saying you did this, but I've had many arguments with Sabres fans where I showed statistically that matthews is the better player offensively over eichel only to have the sabre fans tell me the stats dont mean everything

lol

Regarding the topic: I would take Eichel. He does a lot of things well, and one of his more elite traits is his athleticism along with his puck skills. Eichel hasn't had a lot of success in Buffalo, so it's nice to see his skills coming to the forefront with a decent team around him.

I would much rather having the athletic centre with better offensive skills than the two-way pivot in Barkov. I would love to not have to pick either, but I think Eichel gets a bit underrated on these boards due to the success of Matthews and McDavid.