Speculation: Ball Arena

[Hasbro]

I remember when they finally did that to the old Elitch’s. How the wheel turns. Wouldn’t hate not having it downtown, though.

I could see Elitch's being the thing moved to C City.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

As a commerce city resident I have also heard the rumblings of rumors from my neighbors hairstylist that both elitch and bandimere raceway moving up near the Gaylord Rockies Resort just southwest of DIA.

 

[Hasbro]

As a commerce city resident

Sorry

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

Sorry

Haha. I get that a lot.

Where I live is actually very nice. It's just I have to drive through the shit to get to anywhere else. Like getting to Denver involves 15 minutes of shit before I hit I-70 or I-25.

 

[katfude]

Haha. I get that a lot.

Where I live is actually very nice. It's just I have to drive through the shit to get to anywhere else. Like getting to Denver involves 15 minutes of shit before I hit I-70 or I-25.

I too used to live in CoMmErCe CiTy on the north end where they annexed the nice housing developments from Henderson. I called it Henderson instaed of Commerce City, for obvious reasons.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

I too used to live in CoMmErCe CiTy on the north end where they annexed the nice housing developments from Henderson. I called it Henderson instaed of Commerce City, for obvious reasons.

I tend to say Reunion, but technically it is CC.

 

[henchman21]

I don't think you buy sports teams throughout different continents just to develop housing projects. I don't think he's gotten anything out of the Arsenal purchase in terms of real estate, nor when he originally bought the Avs/Nuggets (but don't quote me on that as I originally thought he always owned the team). He's obviously going to pressure any city he's in for new stadiums, which is how he ended up with SoFi (which people say is one of the best arenas in the entire world). It would be interesting if he does end up with Elitch Gardens land because that would be a major project with major railroad lines running through the intended area as well.

E: Yeah I wouldn't say that Kroenke is communist at all, definitely under the banner of capitalism, but with the power of a dictator at this point.

Moving Elitch Gardens isn't killing it though.

It isn't certainly to just do housing projects... it is a side business. They do try to tie larger development to each one of their projects with teams. It has happened with every team of theirs in NA that has undergone a stadium/arena project. Leveraging team and location against municipalities is a way to get cheap land and tax breaks to make the real money outside the sport. It is a pretty normal thing, but something Stan is incredibly good at. He made his fortune by developing land next to and with Walmarts... he utilizes the same strategy with all of his teams in North America.

If you do a deep dive on the Rams' practice facility, you'll see how important development is to them spending any real money on a team here for facilities.

Arsenal is different mostly because things just operate differently in the UK.

 

[GeoRox89]

As a commerce city resident I have also heard the rumblings of rumors from my neighbors hairstylist that both elitch and bandimere raceway moving up near the Gaylord Rockies Resort just southwest of DIA.

Is this a real name?

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

To me, Ball Arena's experience is pretty good in the seats. It is everywhere outside that where the issues crop up... concessions, entry and exit, amenities, bathrooms, parking, etc. But, back with my tin foil hat on, this focus group is more about gaining lobbying power for their other plans.


Nothing will ever be worse than my college football stadium's urinals. It was literally a circular trough in the middle of the room that 30 guys at a time pissed into. Always with the old dude that walked up, ripped a fart, and commented, 'don't be scared boys, we all have the same parts.'

There used to be long toughs filled with ice in the men's restrooms at Memorial Stadium at Nebraska, back in the 80s. You'd walk up and piss on the ice. I remember going in there as a kid, and it was a game vs Oklahoma. Cold as f***. Sleetting. Wind blowing about 30 mph out of the north. This dude wearing coveralls walks in, and he is hammerd. He unzips his coveralls and starts saying, "Here dicky dicky. Here dicky," and most everyone in the restroom was laughing, including my Dad.

It's been renovated several times over since then, and now there's talk of tearing down the south end of the stadium and completely redoing it with large concourses and a restaurant/bar where you can sit/stand and watch the game from your table. Early rumors suggest anywhere from $500M - $700M reno cost, which blows my mind.

 

[SirLoinOfCloth]

Is this a real name?

You bet your sweet ass it is.

Experience the Best Colorado Resort | Aurora | Gaylord Rockies Resort & Convention Center

Experience the ultimate getaway at our Colorado resort in the Rockies. Indulge in world-class amenities and breathtaking views at our Colorado resort. Book now!

www.marriott.com

 

[S E P H]

It isn't certainly to just do housing projects... it is a side business. They do try to tie larger development to each one of their projects with teams. It has happened with every team of theirs in NA that has undergone a stadium/arena project. Leveraging team and location against municipalities is a way to get cheap land and tax breaks to make the real money outside the sport. It is a pretty normal thing, but something Stan is incredibly good at. He made his fortune by developing land next to and with Walmarts... he utilizes the same strategy with all of his teams in North America.

If you do a deep dive on the Rams' practice facility, you'll see how important development is to them spending any real money on a team here for facilities.

Arsenal is different mostly because things just operate differently in the UK.

I'm all for the city to give him that land, he's shown to be ruthless and move clubs if it benefits his portfolio (not that he needs to get any wealthier). The project actually looks really nice and would upgrade Denver which has a poor-looking skyline if you exclude the Rocky Mountains. I am more under the assumption that I think Avs and Nuggets need a new arena outright, but Pepsi Centre would be the ultimate spot to keep the club in the city of Denver so that makes it hard. Then put in the info that the new practice facilities would be part of the redevelopment of the parking lot + Elitch Gardens land.

We'll see what happens across the Atlantic Ocean, but I doubt Arsenal will be moving stadiums any time soon, especially considering how crazy limited land is in the UK. The chances are that they just renovate The Emirates as Chelsea and Spurs have done to their arenas instead of building a brand new one.

 

[S E P H]

That's true. I believe the plan is to move it by the DIA. They could expand there if they want, since there's a lot of open land. However, I can't see it attracting the same amount of customers without its central location. People of the southwestern metro area probably won't want to make the drive.

I have a buddy who lives out in Green Valley Ranch and I think it is becoming a really nice area. Of course, it is far AF from everything and you have planes flying around constantly, but all of it is new and nice development right next to the highway making trips much easier. If they ever decided to put Elitch Gardens there, I would think that would be a prime location, but I feel they would build something around Dick's Sporting Park instead to keep attractions next to each other.

I would definitely live at GVR first before moving to Commerce City, Brighton, or Montbello. Actually, if there is a region that is becoming extremely nice, it is South Aurora, North Parker. The area around Saddle Rock Golf Club, not that I golf but a major place that people might know of (or Tallyn's Reach).

 

[henchman21]

I'm all for the city to give him that land, he's shown to be ruthless and move clubs if it benefits his portfolio (not that he needs to get any wealthier). The project actually looks really nice and would upgrade Denver which has a poor-looking skyline if you exclude the Rocky Mountains. I am more under the assumption that I think Avs and Nuggets need a new arena outright, but Pepsi Centre would be the ultimate spot to keep the club in the city of Denver so that makes it hard. Then put in the info that the new practice facilities would be part of the redevelopment of the parking lot + Elitch Gardens land.

We'll see what happens across the Atlantic Ocean, but I doubt Arsenal will be moving stadiums any time soon, especially considering how crazy limited land is in the UK. The chances are that they just renovate The Emirates as Chelsea and Spurs have done to their arenas instead of building a brand new one.

That's a fundamental debate that gets into a lot of politics. One of the reasons the Coyotes have had major issues getting their arena issue settled is the usage of public funds. They almost have to go completely private to get anything passed. Whereas... Carolina can get 300m. With the Avs, the leases are typically complicated, but it was extended to 2040. The odds of them moving anytime soon are low, whether or not Denver supplies them with subsidies. Saying that, relationships are usually built through goodwill and Denver being a good partner is likely to keep them around. Participating in this project and helping out goes a long way.

On the flip side, sports teams typically take, take, take, and then don't remember they took so much when they get told no.

Arsenal is renovating now IIRC.

 

[S E P H]

That's a fundamental debate that gets into a lot of politics. One of the reasons the Coyotes have had major issues getting their arena issue settled is the usage of public funds. They almost have to go completely private to get anything passed. Whereas... Carolina can get 300m. With the Avs, the leases are typically complicated, but it was extended to 2040. The odds of them moving anytime soon are low, whether or not Denver supplies them with subsidies. Saying that, relationships are usually built through goodwill and Denver being a good partner is likely to keep them around. Participating in this project and helping out goes a long way.

On the flip side, sports teams typically take, take, take, and then don't remember they took so much when they get told no.

Arsenal is renovating now IIRC.

Yeah, there are a lot of politics and friendliness between parties like what we've seen in Calgary and public funds there for the Flames new arena. The problem with Kroenke is he'll just find a location where the city will simp to him, as LA did with SoFi. Kroenke-owned sports teams just work because of him being a brilliant businessman and even though the Rams are looking to be a disaster now, they did win the SB and just hosted some great futball friendlies in the summer.

Isn't the Hurricanes thing due to the arena actually being owned by the North Carolina State University? If NC State is a publicly funded university, then it is very easy to get taxpayer money to fund projects including renovation compared to the Oilers or Flames situation.

The Emirates I don't think is getting any major renovation. Not "100 million dollars" worth as this article said it is fixing some leaky locations in the roof and redoing paint from wear and tear.

Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium is getting a facelift

The Gunners’ new digs should be ready by January 2023

www.timeout.com

 

[henchman21]

Yeah, there are a lot of politics and friendliness between parties like what we've seen in Calgary and public funds there for the Flames new arena. The problem with Kroenke is he'll just find a location where the city will simp to him, as LA did with SoFi. Kroenke-owned sports teams just work because of him being a brilliant businessman and even though the Rams are looking to be a disaster now, they did win the SB and just hosted some great futball friendlies in the summer.

Isn't the Hurricanes thing due to the arena actually being owned by the North Carolina State University? If NC State is a publicly funded university, then it is very easy to get taxpayer money to fund projects including renovation compared to the Oilers or Flames situation.

The Emirates I don't think is getting any major renovation. Not "100 million dollars" worth as this article said it is fixing some leaky locations in the roof and redoing paint from wear and tear.

Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium is getting a facelift

The Gunners’ new digs should be ready by January 2023

www.timeout.com

Frankly most sports owners are like that. Their loyalty only goes as far as their pocketbook. That's why we hear crazy things like the Jets' owners this spring (despite being loaded and very much a part of Winnipeg's downtown development). I'm 100% sure Stan would move the team if Denver didn't play ball.

The Carolina situation is a mess to be quite frank. NC State nor the Hurricanes own the arena. It was originally a NC State thing and fundraising, but public money and Karmanos got involved. So the Centennial Authority owns the arena technically. But they pay the Gale Force to manage the facility. Gale Force is the technical company that owns the Canes. Which means the Canes basically only pay a nominal fee for rent and then get to manage the arena how they see fit. With basically a single condition, NC State gets scheduling priority. That's it. Canes manage the facility, reap all the profits (NC State pays them for usage too), and they even get some of the operating expenses paid for. The 300m is basically public money the Canes can use to renovate the building with the condition that the Canes extend their lease to 2044 (there is an out in 2039) and Dundon invests 800m in surrounding area development. Which is an interesting quirk, the county owns most of that land... and starting in 2029 instead of the Canes paying no rent and getting about 2m in op ex covered, they'll pay 4.5m per year. But Dundon can develop and profit off that land with the 800m... essentially, he can build some expensive buildings, sublease them for crazy amounts, and the most he will pay is 4.5m per year for 80ish acres near the arena. It is a pretty insane deal when you break it all down. Dundon is gonna make a crap ton of money over the next 15 years off of it... then he's going to scream in 2039 about needing a new arena and get a whole new set of kickbacks.

I thought I had read a larger amount like that, but I don't pay close attention to really know.

 

[S E P H]

Frankly most sports owners are like that. Their loyalty only goes as far as their pocketbook. That's why we hear crazy things like the Jets' owners this spring (despite being loaded and very much a part of Winnipeg's downtown development). I'm 100% sure Stan would move the team if Denver didn't play ball.

The Carolina situation is a mess to be quite frank. NC State nor the Hurricanes own the arena. It was originally a NC State thing and fundraising, but public money and Karmanos got involved. So the Centennial Authority owns the arena technically. But they pay the Gale Force to manage the facility. Gale Force is the technical company that owns the Canes. Which means the Canes basically only pay a nominal fee for rent and then get to manage the arena how they see fit. With basically a single condition, NC State gets scheduling priority. That's it. Canes manage the facility, reap all the profits (NC State pays them for usage too), and they even get some of the operating expenses paid for. The 300m is basically public money the Canes can use to renovate the building with the condition that the Canes extend their lease to 2044 (there is an out in 2039) and Dundon invests 800m in surrounding area development. Which is an interesting quirk, the county owns most of that land... and starting in 2029 instead of the Canes paying no rent and getting about 2m in op ex covered, they'll pay 4.5m per year. But Dundon can develop and profit off that land with the 800m... essentially, he can build some expensive buildings, sublease them for crazy amounts, and the most he will pay is 4.5m per year for 80ish acres near the arena. It is a pretty insane deal when you break it all down. Dundon is gonna make a crap ton of money over the next 15 years off of it... then he's going to scream in 2039 about needing a new arena and get a whole new set of kickbacks.

I thought I had read a larger amount like that, but I don't pay close attention to really know.

Wow, that's nuts about Carolina! I wonder if he puts a Topgolf right next to the throwball stadium and hockey arena with that 800 million?! They're in a weird part of the state if I remember correctly. Just two arenas surrounded by a forest with some satellite NC State buildings thrown in between. Maybe @5280 knows more of the place, but I don't really see the state getting an economic boom that is happening in Austin, Nashville, Phoenix/Tempe, and half of Florida it seems like.

I might be entirely wrong about this, but I personally believe that Nugs and Avs are two seeds in the same pot for Kroenke. If he's looking for a new arena, I believe both will follow suit and that would make a location much more difficult. For example, if he wanted to build a new arena in SLC, he has the ability to move the Avs, but they already have the Jazz. There are places where it can work like Kansas City, Milwaukee, or Austin if he was crazy enough, but not a lot. Like Avs would work in Portland, but Nuggets would not. The Nuggets would be brilliant in Las Vegas, but the Avs would not.

 

[henchman21]

Wow, that's nuts about Carolina! I wonder if he puts a Topgolf right next to the throwball stadium and hockey arena with that 800 million?! They're in a weird part of the state if I remember correctly. Just two arenas surrounded by a forest with some satellite NC State buildings thrown in between. Maybe @5280 knows more of the place, but I don't really see the state getting an economic boom that is happening in Austin, Nashville, Phoenix/Tempe, and half of Florida it seems like.

I might be entirely wrong about this, but I personally believe that Nugs and Avs are two seeds in the same pot for Kroenke. If he's looking for a new arena, I believe both will follow suit and that would make a location much more difficult. For example, if he wanted to build a new arena in SLC, he has the ability to move the Avs, but they already have the Jazz. There are places where it can work like Kansas City, Milwaukee, or Austin if he was crazy enough, but not a lot. Like Avs would work in Portland, but Nuggets would not. The Nuggets would be brilliant in Las Vegas, but the Avs would not.

It has been a minute since I was in the area (couple years). As with most places in NC, I recall a lot of random forest.... but I think the arena is pretty much smack between Durham and Raleigh next to the satellite campus and the college golf course. The triangle though has seemingly just been blowing up for years... I don't know if it is at Austin/Tampa level, but when I skip a few years and go back, it seems like a completely new city each time.

Yeah if Stan was moving them, it would be a package deal... and I'd think Austin would top the list with KC as a #2. Good thing is we don't have to deal with it for more than a decade. I think the soonest early out on the lease is 2034.

 

[willy702]

Just finished the survey. Nothing earth shattering in there, a lot of the stuff they show for now are changes to the premium spaces. Since I'm never paying club prices I'm guessing the changes will barely impact my experience.

And come on people, the teams are not moving. KSE can be a bit ambivalent about their teams but threatening to move was a one time deal. Teams just don't move and nothing would piss the leagues off more than moving to inferior markets so the owner could make more personal wealth. Yeah he did it with the Rams but that was literally a market that had nothing to work with and a facility they had no interest investing in. The thing is still sadly there getting almost no use. That's how stadiums work. Arenas can be filled a lot more nights with all kinds of events but benefit from at least one anchor team.

 

[5280]

Wow, that's nuts about Carolina! I wonder if he puts a Topgolf right next to the throwball stadium and hockey arena with that 800 million?! They're in a weird part of the state if I remember correctly. Just two arenas surrounded by a forest with some satellite NC State buildings thrown in between. Maybe @5280 knows more of the place, but I don't really see the state getting an economic boom that is happening in Austin, Nashville, Phoenix/Tempe, and half of Florida it seems like.

I might be entirely wrong about this, but I personally believe that Nugs and Avs are two seeds in the same pot for Kroenke. If he's looking for a new arena, I believe both will follow suit and that would make a location much more difficult. For example, if he wanted to build a new arena in SLC, he has the ability to move the Avs, but they already have the Jazz. There are places where it can work like Kansas City, Milwaukee, or Austin if he was crazy enough, but not a lot. Like Avs would work in Portland, but Nuggets would not. The Nuggets would be brilliant in Las Vegas, but the Avs would not.

North Carolina is booming, actually. Maybe not at the rate of some other places, I don’t know for sure, but it is definitely booming and I would think it will be for a while. People are moving here from all over the Northeast and upper Midwest. There is better weather and taxes and the dollar goes a lot further. You can get a much bigger house or piece of land for the same amount of money. Lots of companies are moving here, too, for the same reasons.

I honestly wish I lived in Colorado or out west somewhere, I’m not the biggest fan of the east coast in general, but NC is a good state, imo. There are a lot of activities to do from the mountains to the beaches. In the middle are a couple of decent cities. They are touting Charlotte as the financial capital of the east coast at the moment and the research triangle around the Raleigh-Durham area attracts all kinds of campuses and people. Both are blowing up.

That is interesting to hear about PNC arena. I’ve seen a couple of games there and it is a pretty fun environment, though it’s definitely in a weird area out in the forest. It’s not even near the downtown area and downtown Raleigh isn’t much to shake a stick at anyway. I’m not sure why they put a team in Raleigh instead of Charlotte. Charlotte is a lot bigger and you would think they would draw more people in that location. Maybe that is why they received so many concessions in regards to the arena.

 

[famicommander]

The teams aren't going anywhere. Ball Arena, Dick's Sporting Goods Park, the Paramount, Altitude TV, KSE Radio Ventures (he owns 2 sports stations and 2 others), the Nuggets, the Avalanche, the Rapids, the Mammoth, and Elitch's are all one operation. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of land he owns. Kroenke is dug in deep here.

 

[henchman21]

The teams aren't going anywhere. Ball Arena, Dick's Sporting Goods Park, the Paramount, Altitude TV, KSE Radio Ventures (he owns 2 sports stations and 2 others), the Nuggets, the Avalanche, the Rapids, the Mammoth, and Elitch's are all one operation. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of land he owns. Kroenke is dug in deep here.

No one is saying they are moving.

Kroenke having ties to the area though is not enough of a reason for any of his teams to stay. His ties to Missouri and St Louis are much deeper than his ties to Denver and Colorado. When the time comes for Ball Arena to be replaced (around 2040 with negotiations starting around 2034-2036), you can be damn sure Kroenke will utilize every tool he has available to get an advantageous deal.

 

[famicommander]

No one is saying they are moving.

Kroenke having ties to the area though is not enough of a reason for any of his teams to stay. His ties to Missouri and St Louis are much deeper than his ties to Denver and Colorado. When the time comes for Ball Arena to be replaced (around 2040 with negotiations starting around 2034-2036), you can be damn sure Kroenke will utilize every tool he has available to get an advantageous deal.

Despite being from Missouri he never really dug in there from a business standpoint. One of his real estate companies is incorporated there but he never began collecting his own venues (Ball, Dick's, Paramount), ancillary teams (such as when he bought the Rapids and Mammoth here or when he became a minority owner of Elway's former AFL team), TV and radio stations, or other attractions (Elitch's). And he certainly didn't spent tons of money developing land and building apartments, hotels, bars, restaurants, Walmarts, etc around the Rams old stadium like he has here.

In St. Louis he didn't even own the venue, so it was entirely believable that he'd uproot the team and go somewhere else. It would be a bluff if he threatened to move his teams out of Denver and everyone would know it. He's spent two decades doing the exact opposite things that he did in St. Louis.

 

[henchman21]

Despite being from Missouri he never really dug in there from a business standpoint. One of his real estate companies is incorporated there but he never began collecting his own venues (Ball, Dick's, Paramount), ancillary teams (such as when he bought the Rapids and Mammoth here or when he became a minority owner of Elway's former AFL team), TV and radio stations, or other attractions (Elitch's). And he certainly didn't spent tons of money developing land and building apartments, hotels, bars, restaurants, Walmarts, etc around the Rams old stadium like he has here.

In St. Louis he didn't even own the venue, so it was entirely believable that he'd uproot the team and go somewhere else. It would be a bluff if he threatened to move his teams out of Denver and everyone would know it. He's spent two decades doing the exact opposite things that he did in St. Louis.

You probably need to look more into his past. His two most successful companies have been headquartered there. THF is still there and has a few hundred million in assets in Missouri (few bil nationwide). He also still lives in Columbia and is very affiliated with the University there. He was the key guy in trying to get St Louis a NFL expansion team in the 90s that lead to that stadium getting built. Then when the Rams were moving from Anaheim, he was critical in getting them there and taking ownership stake. That lead to full ownership.

The whole Rams back to LA move blew up mostly around Kroenke not getting excess rights to land. He was crafty in breaking the lease and his demands were very high (and LA was more than willing to comply).

I doubt he’d move the teams… but he certainly going to push for a lot of concessions and if Denver doesn’t budge he will threaten. He will follow through if he doesn’t get close to his demands. This is 15-20 years from now. His demands currently will play into the relationship down the line too.

 

[famicommander]

You probably need to look more into his past. His two most successful companies have been headquartered there. THF is still there and has a few hundred million in assets in Missouri. He also still lives in Columbia and is very affiliated with the University there.

Again, he didn't have many public facing businesses in St Louis. People don't just walk into his real estate development company and make impulse purchases. People who are going to do business with him there know who he his and seek him out specifically. And his real estate company wasn't tied to the Rams in any significant way.

In Denver all of his operations are interconnected and most of them sell products directly to consumers. Moving his teams out of here means abandoning decades of support infrastructure he built out of his own pocket (venues, ancillary businesses near his venues, extra tenants, the media outlets that cover them, etc).

It's also important to remember that LA is a massively bigger market than St Louis. The only major league markets bigger than Denver that don't have an NBA team are Seattle (which is almost definitely getting an expansion team next round anyway) and Tampa (which is virtually the same size as Denver anyway and has the Magic just down Interstate 4 in Orlando). The only major league markets bigger than Denver without an NHL team are Atlanta and Houston. Atlanta is a trash market that doesn't support any of its teams and has already had two NHL teams pack up and leave. Houston would certainly be attractive but do we really think Stan is going to build his own arena there just for the Avs? Because the Nuggets couldn't go with them, that's for sure.

There are no markets out there he could take both the Avs and Nuggets that wouldn't be a drastic downgrade in terms of media market size.

 

[Ceremony]

No one is saying they are moving.

Kroenke having ties to the area though is not enough of a reason for any of his teams to stay. His ties to Missouri and St Louis are much deeper than his ties to Denver and Colorado. When the time comes for Ball Arena to be replaced (around 2040 with negotiations starting around 2034-2036), you can be damn sure Kroenke will utilize every tool he has available to get an advantageous deal.

Kroenke will be 87 in 2034. I don't think he'll be that good at negotiating by then.