Bad faith ... Wow

[A Good Flying Bird*]

How is the PA supposed to take the league seriously?
I just finally read a synopsis of yesterday's offer.
Not only was there a cap, which is to be expected at this time.
But the league also banned RFA hold outs?
So lemme get this straight, a player's contract expires. He's under no contract with anyone.
His only leverage to get a better contract is to hold out (or shop services in Europe).
And now the league is banning it.

This is nonsense.
This is not a serious attempt to negotiate by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

Click to read more...

 

[i am dave]

How is the PA supposed to take the league seriously?
I just finally read a synopsis of yesterday's offer.
Not only was there a cap, which is to be expected at this time.
But the league also banned RFA hold outs?
So lemme get this straight, a player's contract expires. He's under no contract with anyone.
His only leverage to get a better contract is to hold out (or shop services in Europe).
And now the league is banning it.

This is nonsense.
This is not a serious attempt to negotiate by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

That was an option in the arbitration section. Quite frankly, I think everything after "mutual arbitration" was fluff to be negotiated out to the point where the arbitration clause was one line indicating two-way arbitration.

 

[Hockey_Nut99]

I'll tell you what's nonsense. A player holding out like a whiny bi***....Holding a team hostage and ruining it's chances of making the playoffs if it's a long holdout. Why should they be able to hold out?

Why don't you go to work and then hold out for more money. If you have a contract and it expires, then demand more and sit out. Your a** will get kicked to the curb very quick. The players had every leverage in the last cba. Banning holdouts is a good thing. Wouldn't you want a full roster for your favourite team at the start of a season?

Stop drinking so much koolaid

 

[txomisc]

How is the PA supposed to take the league seriously?
I just finally read a synopsis of yesterday's offer.
Not only was there a cap, which is to be expected at this time.
But the league also banned RFA hold outs?
So lemme get this straight, a player's contract expires. He's under no contract with anyone.
His only leverage to get a better contract is to hold out (or shop services in Europe).
And now the league is banning it.

This is nonsense.
This is not a serious attempt to negotiate by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

An RFA's leverage in negotiations should be his skill. If a player is asking for so much that a team would rather lose him for a year than pay him, then maybe that player has greatly misjudged his value.

 

[Old Hickory]

How is the PA supposed to take the league seriously?
I just finally read a synopsis of yesterday's offer.
Not only was there a cap, which is to be expected at this time.
But the league also banned RFA hold outs?
So lemme get this straight, a player's contract expires. He's under no contract with anyone.
His only leverage to get a better contract is to hold out (or shop services in Europe).
And now the league is banning it.

This is nonsense.
This is not a serious attempt to negotiate by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

Just playing Devils advocate. What of the league put thigns like the lack of holding out and the UFA age of 30 as items to negotiate?

 

[Sanderson]

How many tims do people have to explain that what you describe is not bargaining in bad faith?

 

[Jobu]

I'll tell you what's nonsense. A player holding out like a whiny bi***....Holding a team hostage and ruining it's chances of making the playoffs if it's a long holdout. Why should they be able to hold out?

Why don't you go to work and then hold out for more money. If you have a contract and it expires, then demand more and sit out. Your a** will get kicked to the curb very quick. The players had every leverage in the last cba. Banning holdouts is a good thing. Wouldn't you want a full roster for your favourite team at the start of a season?

Stop drinking so much koolaid

If my contract ends with my employer, I am free to seek employment elsewhere (generally speaking). This isn't the case for NHL players due to restricted free agency. Apples and oranges.

 

[HockeyCritter]

Instead of complaining about the NHL’s proposal why didn’t the PA take the time to create a counter proposal?

And what defines good faith bargaining? Has either side truly engaged in good faith bargaining?

(And the answer to that would be no)

 

[Jobu]

How many tims do people have to explain that what you describe is not bargaining in bad faith?

Not necessarily true.

 

[Jobu]

Instead of complaining about the NHL’s proposal why didn’t the PA take the time to create a counter proposal?

And what defines good faith bargaining? Has either side truly engaged in good faith bargaining?

(And the answer to that would be no)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NHL is the only party to call a news conference bashing the other side's offer.

 

[mr gib]

How is the PA supposed to take the league seriously?
I just finally read a synopsis of yesterday's offer.
Not only was there a cap, which is to be expected at this time.
But the league also banned RFA hold outs?
So lemme get this straight, a player's contract expires. He's under no contract with anyone.
His only leverage to get a better contract is to hold out (or shop services in Europe).
And now the league is banning it.

This is nonsense.
This is not a serious attempt to negotiate by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

ditto - its a triple cap -

 

[likea]

If my contract ends with my employer, I am free to seek employment elsewhere (generally speaking). This isn't the case for NHL players due to restricted free agency. Apples and oranges.

they actually can seek employment elsewhere

Russia, Sweden ect...

 

[amazingcrwns]

If a player doesn't want to play for the amount of their qualifying offer during RFA status they have every right to go play overseas. They can negotiate to a point but holding out while the season is going on is rediculous. Not only does it hurt the team because they are missing a player off their roster and it's a distraction, They also have to take into account how much payroll that player is going to take up once they come back. This way if a player holds out past a certain date at least a team can straighten itself out once the season get's underway.

The player's aren't going to be forced out of the league because of this, it's going to prevent teams from missing players at the start of the season. It's a deadline in negotiations, kind of like the deadline we're at now. If nothing is solved at this point then the season is lost for everyone.

 

[txomisc]

If my contract ends with my employer, I am free to seek employment elsewhere (generally speaking). This isn't the case for NHL players due to restricted free agency. Apples and oranges.

The players are free to seek employment elsewhere. They can negotiate a deal with any team in the NHL. They are also 100% free to join one of any number of leagues.

 

[barnburner]

If my contract ends with my employer, I am free to seek employment elsewhere (generally speaking). This isn't the case for NHL players due to restricted free agency. Apples and oranges.

Being RFAs does not stop them from being able to go to Europe and play.

 

[Jester]

If a player doesn't want to play for the amount of their qualifying offer during RFA status they have every right to go play overseas. They can negotiate to a point but holding out while the season is going on is rediculous. Not only does it hurt the team because they are missing a player off their roster and it's a distraction, They also have to take into account how much payroll that player is going to take up once they come back. This way if a player holds out past a certain date at least a team can straighten itself out once the season get's underway.

The player's aren't going to be forced out of the league because of this, it's going to prevent teams from missing players at the start of the season. It's a deadline in negotiations, kind of like the deadline we're at now. If nothing is solved at this point then the season is lost for everyone.

exactly, it's a two-way street. the player can lose a season in the NHL if he pushes too hard, and the team can lose the player for the season if they are low-balling. it helps the owners by not letting players hold them hostage and keeping salaries down some, but you telling me teams aren't going to bargain hard to try and get a player signed to a fair deal so they have their services?

 

[HockeyCritter]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NHL is the only party to call a news conference bashing the other side's offer.

Would that be the one and only proposal submitted by the PA? The one that the league took five days to consider before rejecting while formulating a counter proposal? I suppose it was righteous indignation that caused Linden to shoutd his injured feelings from the mountain tops.

Neither side tried to negoitate a real deal, neither side made an honest effort in resolving the problem, neither side is blameless, and neither side has been truthful.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Why should they be able to hold out?

1st off its not a hold out if he has completed his contract.

why shouldnt he be allowed to sit out until he has a contract offer that he agree's to ? is it not his human right to choose to not play hockey for less than 1billion dollars per shift ?

thats an exageration of course, but the point remains, why should he not be allowed to sit out until an agreement is reached ? was he put on this earth simply to be a gladiator for us ?

dr

 

[HockeyCritter]

1st off its not a hold out if he has completed his contract.

why shouldnt he be allowed to sit out until he has a contract offer that he agree's to ? is it not his human right to choose to not play hockey for less than 1billion dollars per shift ?

thats an exageration of course, but the point remains, why should he not be allowed to sit out until an agreement is reached ? was he put on this earth simply to be a gladiator for us ?

dr

If a player has the right to hold out because he feels that ownership is lowballing him, then ownership should have some recourse to lower a player’s contract value if that player failed to meet certain objectives.

 

[Sammy*]

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

The reality that the league has operated under for the past 10 years is alot bigger joke than what the owners have proposed for the next 6.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Imagine how all the people would erupt on the board if the NHLPA offered to get rid of restricted free agents entirely and make it all unrestricted free agents. But since this is the owners offering that deal supposedly its a good offer. The Owners can do no wrong in some peoples minds now, they could kill the first born of every player and people on this board will somehow figure out how to rationalise it to work to the owners advantage. How long has players been holding out been around in the entire sports industry as a whole? Im assuming a pretty long time. I highly doubt if that was offered the NHLPA wouldnt touch that offer with a 10 foot pole anyway so it doesn't really matter I guess.

 

[Epsilon]

If a player has the right to hold out because he feels that ownership is lowballing him, then ownership should have some recourse to lower a player’s contract value if that player failed to meet certain objectives.

This entire discussion is about players whose contracts have expired, and are now restricted free agents. Why people keep bringing up Alexei Yashin-type situations I have no idea.

To repeat: the league is trying to ban players not under contract from sitting out in hopes of a better deal. This has nothing to do with players under contract saying they won't play unless they get a new deal first. The courts told Alexei Yashin where he could stick that idea already.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

If a player has the right to hold out because he feels that ownership is lowballing him, then ownership should have some recourse to lower a player’s contract value if that player failed to meet certain objectives.

who says otherwise ?

under the old system, the team could not offer a player a QO and cut him completly. he could offer a QO and presumably if the player is sitting out it means that he rejected it. once the player rejects the QO, the team is free to offer whatever they want and retain rights to match and compensation.

why dont you give an example though of a player who has refused his QO, sat out into the season and should be offered a reduction in pay. hmm ? so name some one ? i bet you cant.

dr

 

[HockeyCritter]

Maybe, just maybe those “terms†were put in the League’s proposal as a tangible demonstration of the owners’ resolve. It is certainly within the realm of possibility that the holdout “term†would be removed (more likely than not in my opinion).

 

[Slats432]

How is the PA supposed to take the league seriously?
I just finally read a synopsis of yesterday's offer.
Not only was there a cap, which is to be expected at this time.
But the league also banned RFA hold outs?
So lemme get this straight, a player's contract expires. He's under no contract with anyone.
His only leverage to get a better contract is to hold out (or shop services in Europe).
And now the league is banning it.

This is nonsense.
This is not a serious attempt to negotiate by ANY stretch of the imagination.

It's like the owners have come up with a wish list of 10 outlandish desires and demanded every single one of them, without any understanding of the reality the league has operated under for the past 10 years.

This is one of the best parts of the proposal. If there isn't a drop dead signing date, the pressure always gets put on the team to buck up more money.

The way the system is now, the rookie capped contracts were easily worked around and the only contract that the team had leverage on was the second one. Well, holding out takes away all of that leverage.