Babcock's Future

[Gary Nylund]

This situation really reminds me of the Raptors and Casey. They just couldn't get it done with him. He was too stubborn, used players poorly, and was terrible at in-game adjustments. We need our Nick Nurse. Plus we need to let some of the older guard go (Gardiner, Hainsey, Kadri, Marleau) and move forward with the young bloods, much like when we moved on from Demar and JV.

Well put, I agree with all this.

For me, my opinion of Babcock plummeted when a few weeks ago, he said something about the big contracts making it a challenge or making it harder or whatever to win in the future. The fact is that as of right now, Matthews is playing for peanuts, so is Marner, the roster is completely stacked so why are you moaning about the future when you're absolutely primed to win now? It was almost like he was making excuses for losing but the "problems" he mentioned don't even exist yet, just drove me nuts.

I'm not usually this blunt but ... Babcock is a loser. When you have all the talent that he had to work with and you're complaining about the future, that's a surefire sign of a loser. Had he done a better job of coaching in the now instead of whining about the future, we may well be preparing to play Columbus today.

Babcock needs to be gone and the sooner the better because the longer he sticks around, not only are wasting years when we have a chance to win the cup but also because the longer he stays, the more he poisons our future. As Jack Armstrong likes to say - get that garbage out of here!!

 

[RLF]

Um, that's exactly what's happening. The Avalanche had 11 hits to Calgary's 44 hits in game 5 and won 5 - 1. St. Louis beat Winnipeg (a supposedly heavy team) with guys like Bozak and Schwarz playing big roles in winning. Smashville got totally out-skilled by a smaller and faster Dallas team. The Jackets got out-hit in every game against the Lightning, but outscored the Lightning 19 - 8 in four games. This is why you are seeing so many upsets this season. There is a sea change happening league wide, and if you take a deeper dive, skill/speed is beating heaviness almost across the board.

I guess if you think that if you get hit stats you aren't skilled than sure. Isles took out Pitt in 4, who is considered more skilled and faster? Jackets took out T-Bay in 4, who was considered more skilled and faster? Winnipeg and Nash were 14th and 15th in hits per game in the playoffs, so if you want to use hit stats, they were hardly the big hitters you claim. Teams that win, out hustle and out compete their opponent with some exceptions of great goaltending. Nothing has changed when the playoffs start. Speed and skill still needs to compete and want it more. Without that, teams like the Isles move on.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

I cant believe this guy didnt do ANYTHING. He didnt try and shuffle things in the game, didnt try and stack the power play for two minutes, He has all the tools in the shed. THREE superstars and he cant even use them. Nope, gotta give the connor brown line its time!

Completely mind boggling

 

[GoonieFace]

Are you actually Mike Babcock? Because you fail to give any responsibility of a loss to Babcock and seem to blame it on anyone but him. Just like he does in his pressers.

Having a 56% pk and not making any adjustments is a reason we lost, playing Marleau when down in game 7 nearly as much as Matthews could be a reason we lost. Not giving someone like Trevor Moore more ice time dispite playing well could be a reason we lost. Not mixing up the lines could be a reason we lost.

But yeah, let's blame this series loss on not having mcelhinney LOL

We lost because:

Marner did nothing
Tavares did nothing
Nylander did nothing
Johnsson did nothing
Kapanen did nothing
Marleau did nothing
Brown did nothing
Hyman did nothing

Thats 8 of the top 9 forwards who basically contributed nothing offensively. Andersen wasn't very good in Game 7. Gardiner was a mess last night. Dermott was a mess last night. Their 4th line scrubs made the difference.

 

[Anthrax442]

 

[Trapper]

I agree, but it is also the problem. If Dubas vision is all speed and skill, I don't think we win either and waste one of the most talented teams we have had in decades with a chance at the Cup. Can we afford to have a GM and coach combo that realize what it takes to go all the way anymore than we can afford to keep Babcock who doesn't seem to get playing his stars more in the playoffs is necessary? I don't think we can afford either situation. Take a look at the winners this playoffs, hard to say the fastest and most skilled teams are the ones moving on. Nor has history shown us that it is the way to go.

I don’t think we are going to win if the GM/Coach have different views.

We may not win the Dubas way but we have a much better chance if at the very least the Coach has the same mentality. And that at least starts the clock ticking faster on that philosophy.

 

[Loosie]

Game 7 soured me on Babcock a ton and I've been a huge supporter.

 

[GoonieFace]

Um, that's exactly what's happening. The Avalanche had 11 hits to Calgary's 44 hits in game 5 and won 5 - 1. St. Louis beat Winnipeg (a supposedly heavy team) with guys like Bozak and Schwarz playing big roles in winning. Smashville got totally out-skilled by a smaller and faster Dallas team. The Jackets got out-hit in every game against the Lightning, but outscored the Lightning 19 - 8 in four games. This is why you are seeing so many upsets this season. There is a sea change happening league wide, and if you take a deeper dive, skill/speed is beating heaviness almost across the board.

You might want to re-think this. Columbus is much heavier than Tampa. Hits are a joke stat, they are so subjective. Colorado is a pretty big, fast team. Landy is 215, Mackinnon is 205, Rantanen is 215. Fairly big D as well. St. Louis is big team. Maroon, O-Reilly, Tarasenko, Steen, Sundqvist big D. See the trend?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Game was over after the back to back goals in the first period with Gardiner out there. Babcock had Gardiner out there for 4 shifts between roughly the 13:30 mark and the 2nd goal at 17:46, clearly trying to chase some type of match-up. My guess is Cassidy just watched which line Babcock was going to throw the Gardiner pairing out against and overplayed that very line to keep Garinder out there and exploit the line matching idiocy. The team was obviously deflated at that point and that was the game. I put this squarely on Babcock. Add in all the other craziness with underplaying stars and the 1st PP unit (even Boston were publicly questioning this after the game) plus the ridiculousness of sending Brown and/or Marleau out at the end of close games we were behind in and I think it's pretty clear this guy has to go.

Last year when he was playing Komorov and Hyman on the PP I said I would never watch this team again with Babock behind the bench. I overreacted. I'm not overreacting now: I will watch the Leafs again once he's gone. I can't wait for that day. Until then, I will save myself the frustration and heartache.

 

[Peasy]

You might want to re-think this. Columbus is much heavier than Tampa. Hits are a joke stat, they are so subjective. Colorado is a pretty big, fast team. Landy is 215, Mackinnon is 205, Rantanen is 215. Fairly big D as well. St. Louis is big team. Maroon, O-Reilly, Tarasenko, Steen, Sundqvist big D. See the trend?

Leafs are a big team, Marleau 220, Matthews 216, Tavares 207, Hyman 214, Muzzin 214, Rielly 216.

See how stupid it is to just post the weights of players.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Warning signs were there. Im glad like 90% of this forum is on board now.

Warning signs :

1. Hyman glued to Matthews. We now know Hyman is an improved hard working player, but before that he really was like Brown and just skated hard.

2. Komorov promotion in 2018 playoffs to Matthews line down a goal. Yeah...wtf.

3. Keeping AJ and Kap on the fourth line and only injuries forcing promotions to reveal top line talent

4. Tried using Brown on a top line and took 2/3 of a season before demotion.

5. Marleau never demoted while looking bad. But Moore who looked great never promoted.

6. Same lousy breakouts, crappy PP most of season. Surpringsly our PK was ok probably due to our speed compared to most teams

7. Simple offensive plays. 1 and done plays all season long and teams were all catching on. Ottawa Sens tank team beat us handily.

8. No adjustments intra game. No line shuffling and no top lines having time together. Only in last dying minutes.

9. Top players getting basically same minutes as the unskilled roster fodder players.

Andddd....

10. Everything you saw in this playoffs is the fruition of this and probably explains why the players are so zoned out or never show up on time.

We all complained over and over, slowly people starting to notice the Babcock idiocy... it was there more and more every few games another baffling decision or losing to a tanking team in horrific fashion.

Ive noticed this last year mid season and his player usage during 1 goal games.

Im glad now... there are barely any defenders here and the media is out in question as well.

Leafs have a Dwayne Casey Scenario.

Sad time for Leafs nation

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Game was over after the back to back goals in the first period with Gardiner out there. Babcock had Gardiner out there for 4 shifts between roughly the 13:30 mark and the 2nd goal at 17:46, clearly trying to chase some type of match-up. My guess is Cassidy just watched which line Babcock was going to throw the Gardiner pairing out against and overplayed that very line to keep Garinder out there and exploit the line matching idiocy. The team was obviously deflated at that point and that was the game. I put this squarely on Babcock. Add in all the other craziness with underplaying stars and the 1st PP unit (even Boston were publicly questioning this after the game) plus the ridiculousness of sending Brown and/or Marleau out at the end of close games we were behind in and I think it's pretty clear this guy has to go.

Last year when he was playing Komorov and Hyman on the PP I said I would never watch this team again with Babock behind the bench. I overreacted. I'm not overreacting now: I will watch the Leafs again once he's gone. I can't wait for that day. Until then, I will save myself the frustration and heartache.

My thoughts mirror yours exactly bro

 

[ShaneFalco]

It was mind boggling.
With 20 minutes left and trailing, you become a 3 line team stacking it with your best players and those compliments who are showing the most push at that time.

I really think Babcock has run his course. I'm not saying I totally agree with the Dubas team building philosophy, but if this is his team then he needs a coach who views the game exactly as he does. I don't think Babcock does. So you need a coach who wants the same players as the GM and deploys them with the same thinking. If that fails, then at least it fails with coach/GM on the same page.

And it fails using your best players. Not some vet and plug love-in

 

[KuleminFan41]

This situation really reminds me of the Raptors and Casey. They just couldn't get it done with him. He was too stubborn, used players poorly, and was terrible at in-game adjustments. We need our Nick Nurse. Plus we need to let some of the older guard go (Gardiner, Hainsey, Kadri, Marleau) and move forward with the young bloods, much like when we moved on from Demar and JV.

That's not quite a correct comparison though. The Raptors got better virtually every year under Casey, he won a coach of the year and the Raptors had one of the best benches in the league, they simply couldn't find an answer to LeBron James. Also, its a bit pre-mature to be praising Nick Nurse, he took a team that recorded a franchise high in wins last season and beat a 7th seed team in the first round this year lol. Who knows what Dwayne Casey could have done with with Raptors had he had a player like Leonard .

 

[GoonieFace]

Leafs are a big team, Marleau 220, Matthews 216, Tavares 207, Hyman 214, Muzzin 214, Rielly 216.

See how stupid it is to just post the weights of players.

Its not stupid if guys use their size as an advantage. Leafs are beyond soft.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's not quite a correct comparison though. The Raptors got better virtually every year under Casey, he won a coach of the year and the Raptors had one of the best benches in the league, they simply couldn't find an answer to LeBron James. Also, its a bit pre-mature to be praising Nick Nurse, he took a team that recorded a franchise high in wins last season and beat a 7th seed team in the first round this year lol. Who knows what Dwayne Casey could have done with with Raptors had he had a player like Leonard .

Sure, there's some truth to this. On the other hand, it's not just that we could never beat Lebron, we also had a ton of trouble against teams that on paper, we should be able to handle easily. I don't know if there was even one year with Casey where we could say that we played up to our full potential in the playoffs.

 

[Tlo1]

Don’t know him personally, but I would bet serious money he has a narcissistic personality disorder.

He usually only praises players who are already highly decorated (he considers these his peers), or players who work hard, follow him like a saviour, and will never be viewed as stars by anyone (he considers these his subordinates).

Remember the time Matthews wiped the ice with Toews?

Babcock spent most of the post-game press conference minimizing Matthews’ performance as being just one game, and praising Toews as some paragon of greatness who does it right every day.

Babcock turned Canada into a 4 line team of grinders, not to win gold, but to minimize the odds that any player would stand out above him if they did win gold. Everyone remembers Lemieux and Gretzky in ’87, but when it comes to 2010 and 2014, people only remember Crosby’s OT goal because it won the gold, and Babcock being the coach of teams that scored relatively few goals but dominated possession and conceded virtually nothing.

Low scoring, tight checking games are won by great coaches. High scoring games are won by superior talent. That’s why Babcock always minimizes those types of wins. Two years in a row the Leafs came out of the gate blazing, and Babcock was miserable during the pressers, complaining about the team being too loose defensively and not playing the right way. Two years in a row, he cut their balls off early and turned them into a middling, boring team, who somehow got worse as the season went along. Even though it was plain as day the team was moving in the wrong direction, he continued to insist the opposite.

Babcock loves the media because they give him attention, but he loathes anyone in it who has the audacity to question his tactics. These are inferior people who exist solely to fawn over him. Tonight, after already having faced a ton of criticism over his usage of Marleau before the game, and going back to the same empty well only to have it fail once more, he walked out when questioned about it. A classic example of narcissistic rage.

But remember, if Marleau came through tonight, it would not have been because Marleau is a great player, it would have been because Babcock was right. He would rather risk losing a game to be proven correct than win a game if it means he will be proven wrong.

Hopefully, the media covers his departure the same way they covered his arrival: helicopters following his limo to Pearson, filming his overrated ass getting on a plane, and leaving Toronto for good.

Love this.

He seriously has a smugness and arrogance that's poison for this franchise going forward, and anyone who doesn't recognize this is ignorant.

 

[Trapper]

And it fails using your best players. Not some vet and plug love-in

 

[HamiltonNHL]

As they say:

You can't get rid of the players so you get rid of the .....

 

[RLF]

I don’t think we are going to win if the GM/Coach have different views.

We may not win the Dubas way but we have a much better chance if at the very least the Coach has the same mentality. And that at least starts the clock ticking faster on that philosophy.

I agree with bolded. We aren't going to win even if the coach and GM are on the same page if the GM doesn't build a winning combination. I hope Dubas does understand, but really hard to confirm that right now.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

The dramatic turn around of the Islanders D says a different approach can change things.

 

[Trapper]

I agree with bolded. We aren't going to win even if the coach and GM are on the same page if the GM doesn't build a winning combination. I hope Dubas does understand, but really hard to confirm that right now.

But at present you are just wasting time.
If you are going to go, you go all in. So if this is a Dubas team, go all in. The longer you have excuses, the longer it takes to get to the root of the problem. Once everything is stripped away and you put your fingerprints on everything, the clock is ticking. Right now there is too much opportunity for passing the blame between coach and GM. Between viewpoints. Remove all that. In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Frederik Gauthier was the worst player on either team in this series. If Gauthier was chipping in on the PK and playing sound 200-foot hockey at 5v5 with minimal or non-existent offensive contributions, you might’ve been able to sort-of tolerate it. But he was giving the team 7-8 minutes a night with minimal to no PK time, was not used for important faceoffs, and put one shot on goal in seven games. As good of a bargain-bin signing as Tyler Ennis proved to be, Dubas and Babcock were not on the same page with the Nic Petan addition at the deadline and it gave them few options come playoff time. This falls on management as well as the coaching staff.

Connor Brown and Patrick Marleau’s lack of effectiveness was something of a double whammy — in addition to providing nothing offensively at 5v5, they were relied on for key roles on the penalty kill and the power play, respectively, and were not effective there as the special teams units struggled. If you are going to get angry about Babcock not living and dying by his top guns, it’s the power play where the bulk of the focus should be directed. They never had anything approaching a functioning second power-play unit — it was often so bad that it was killing any momentum to end the PPs — and yet they played Matthews, Tavares, and Marner up to a half a minute less per game than Bergeron, Pastrnak, and Marchand.

Game #7 Review: Boston Bruins 5 vs. Toronto Maple Leafs 1 | Maple Leafs Hotstove

 

[Jackson14]

Can I change my vote?

 

[RLF]

But at present you are just wasting time.
If you are going to go, you go all in. So if this is a Dubas team, go all in. The longer you have excuses, the longer it takes to get to the root of the problem. Once everything is stripped away and you put your fingerprints on everything, the clock is ticking. Right now there is too much opportunity for passing the blame between coach and GM. Between viewpoints. Remove all that. In for a penny, in for a pound.

I don't disagree. My point is more, is Dubas the right viewpoint. If he is not, we are wasting time by letting him try his way and hiring a coach just to see if he knows what he is doing. If we think Dubas has the right vision, fine, keep him and let him hire his own coach. If we don't, then get a guy in who we think has the right vision and let him hire his own coach. Either way, the clock is already ticking.