Babcock's Future

[Gary Nylund]

I don't think the Raptors truly had a great team, a good team yes but they didn't quite have the personnel to beat LeBron's teams. They also didn't have that "superstar" caliber player on their team, Lowry and DeRozan, while good players were never those guys and it showed as they can put up some real rotten performances in the playoffs. I don't think you can pin the blame entirely on Casey for that, I mean this year Lowry had 0 points in game 1 . Now, not to derail the thread anymore than I have lol but bringing it back to Babcock, sometimes you can't blame the coach if the team doesn't score. That doesn't mean the coach should escape criticism, he does deserve criticism for playing Marleau so much, and pulling the goalie early in game 6 but can you really blame him for Tavares, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen and Johnsson for barely scoring? I'm neither for nor against Babcock getting fired, I'm not so sure it would be the right move to fire him as I don't think there are really many viable options out there. People love someone like Barry Trotz but even he got a lot of time at teams hes coached. He even missed the playoffs 3 times with Nashville(they bounced back immediately when he left), and he even got 4 solid years of playoff hockey with the caps. Which mind you, he won the cup after being eliminated in back to back years to the same team. Not saying that will happen here, but maybe Babcock should get 1 more year, I don't know

I agree the Raptors never had a great team but I also think they repeatedly under achieved in the playoffs. I'm not talking about Lebron, I'm talking about letting lesser teams win 2-3 games against them when they should be dispatched in 4-5 games, I'm talking about getting swept by the wizards. Anyhow, back to Babcock.

In a nutshell, the game has passed Babcock by and his attitude sucks.

The game:
I believe his shortcomings have been discussed enough so I have nothing to add. He's living in the past and if that's where he wants to stay, so be it - let's put his tenure as the coach of the Maple Leafs in the past.

Attitude:
He was complaining about player contracts that haven't even kicked in yet when he should be preparing for the playoffs instead of taking shots at his GM. That's not a team player, that's a loser making excuses for losing when there's no reason to anticipate losing. There are millions of people who live and die with this team and that's a responsibility he doesn't seem to take seriously so let's find someone who will.

 

[OmniSens]

Sens fan, I come in peace.

He needs to go. He's not equipped to coach a young team.

 

[LoveRealHockey]

Some random thoughts on what makes a great coach/coaching staff
1. Ability to adjust when game plan isn't working
2. Ability to get the best out of your players
3. Strong PK/PP
4. Game plan to contain the other team's top players
5. Allow your best players to be your best players - playing time, line combinations etc

You can argue that he does okay at #4 (we seemed to contain their top guys 5on5 for the most part), but I'm struggling to understand what Babcock's strengths are as a coach relative to type of team we've built. Either Dubas and Babcock aren't on the same page, or Babcock is over-rated or a combination of both. Ironically he rode his Detroit superstars (Zeddenberg, Lindstrom, Dadsyuk etc) but doesn't seem to want to ride ours i.e. playing time that players like Mathews gets.

I always thought Hunter would be the better choice than Dubas as GM. Not sure if that is shared among the majority of our fanbase, but you can be certain that Hunter would addressed getting some players that can dig the puck out and win puck battles. You can have all the skill you want on a team, but if you get win the puck battles, especially in the playoffs, it's going to be tough

 

[Gary Nylund]

I thought getting past the 1st round was this year's criteria. We are stuck for another year with guy. I hate the players getting coaches fired but guys like Matthews or his agent need to put pressure on Shanahan to approve what I'm sure Dubas wants to do

Yeah it's one thing to lose once when you're a slight underdog, it's another thing to do it three years in a row. This is a results oriented business and he's failed 3 times now. The first time was totally fine, the second time was disappointing but still, tolerable. As far as I'm concerned though, this is strike three and we all know what that means.

As Jack Armstrong likes to say - get that garbage out of here!!

 

[Cantplankwell]

The longer the delay to act on a big bench management shakeup..whatever form it takes... the higher up the responsibility goes...…

 

[Just Rude]

Game 7 soured me on Babcock a ton and I've been a huge supporter.

Facts don't lie. In his past seven playoffs, Babcock teams have made the second round once. ONCE.

I think there is an obvious disconnect between Babcock and Dubas, and these two won't be able to co-exist next season. Just my opinion, but I think there is something there.

That said, there are a myriad of reasons we lost this series, but the most glaring for me is the selfishness of #43. The strength of this team was the depth down the middle and his stupidity cost us a chance to exploit that against a team that was there for the taking.

 

[ryno23]

Here is the thing. A meeting between Dubas and Babs has to happen. Dubas must provide his game plan and how he wants the team to play. If Babs balks at it then ship him out.

An honest question must be asked by Dubas why was Matthews only at 5 mins in the 3rd period. Why was Marleau and Brown still playing ahead of Ennis and Moore.

Then go back to the regular season and why wasn't the PP and PK fixed going into the playoffs. So many answers needed before Dubas can feel comfortable bringing Babs back

 

[Crysis]

Here is the 1st test for Dubas. Fire Hiller who is Babs loyal assistant. If that doesn't shake up Babs to adapt then you know he has to move on.

He won't adapt and I could see him retiring once he gets fired.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

He won't adapt and I could see him retiring once he gets fired.

Until Shanny thinks through entire org Dubie will do nothing except give his thoughts to Shanny. This is how Shanny works. It will be a few weeks. He needs time to talk to everyone and think it all through. Then he will give Dubie his marching orders.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Babcock's relationship and loyalty to Marleau gives me Burke and Wilson vibes.

Babcock may die on the Marleau love affair if Marleau plays.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Just not the right coach for the team methinks. Babcock needs a grizzled veteran team with a HOFer on the backend. This team doesn't match that at all.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Facts don't lie. In his past seven playoffs, Babcock teams have made the second round once. ONCE.

I think there is an obvious disconnect between Babcock and Dubas, and these two won't be able to co-exist next season. Just my opinion, but I think there is something there.

That said, there are a myriad of reasons we lost this series, but the most glaring for me is the selfishness of #43. The strength of this team was the depth down the middle and his stupidity cost us a chance to exploit that against a team that was there for the taking.

#43 isn't selfish, no way can you say that about a player who has sacrificed his body for the good of team more than any other player on this team since the lockout. What he lacks is self-control and that's why he can't be trusted.

He won't adapt and I could see him retiring once he gets fired.

I think Babcock's ego is way too big for that. If he's let go, he'll coach someplace else.

 

[Lightsol]

As good of a bargain-bin signing as Tyler Ennis proved to be, Dubas and Babcock were not on the same page with the Nic Petan addition at the deadline and it gave them few options come playoff time. This falls on management as well as the coaching staff.

The Nic Petan addition wasn't made with the intention of getting another piece. It was literally made to remove Par Lindholm from Babcock's list of options, because he was doing the same thing with Lindholm he's been doing with Marleau and Brown. Babcock would NEVER have given Moore a chance with Lindholm there.

If anything shows they're not on the same page, that's it. The GM is making moves to deprive the coach of options because the coach is too stubborn to recognize options that aren't working. And we're going to see it again this offseason. To be frank, although Hainsey drives me crazy, I think he would be a useful contributor if he was the 6th defenseman. But he needs to go, because he won't be the 6th defenseman with Babcock coaching; he'll be the 2nd.

 

[Stephen]

I do have some major concerns about Babcock’s coaching but I’m more concerned that the style of play that a coaching change suggests is even farther off course from what a winner should look like in the long run.

 

[Lightsol]

This is what makes me cringe with Babcock.

With 1 minute left in the 2nd I said to my buddies "Why doesn't Babcock ever stack a line with Matthews, Marner & Tavares when there's 1 minute left in a period. Pittsburgh does this all the time with Malkin and Crosby."

So he didn't do it with a minute left but then with 12 seconds left he did it. Like WHAT?!?!?

Because when it fails, he can insist he was RIGHT! Babcock does this all the damned time. We saw the same thing with the idea of pairing Matthews and Marner, and with pairing Reilly and Muzzin.

 

[Mess]

Are you actually Mike Babcock? Because you fail to give any responsibility of a loss to Babcock and seem to blame it on anyone but him. Just like he does in his pressers.

Having a 56% pk and not making any adjustments is a reason we lost, playing Marleau when down in game 7 nearly as much as Matthews could be a reason we lost. Not giving someone like Trevor Moore more ice time despite playing well could be a reason we lost. Not mixing up the lines could be a reason we lost.

But yeah, let's blame this series loss on not having mcelhinney LOL

Babcock should get his slice of the blame

But he didn't let in that soft first goal Andersen did.
He didn't tell Gardiner to drop the puck to nobody so Marcus Johansson could score the game/series winning goal.
Its not the coach's fault that he has Nic Petan and Justin Holl as his reserves to use, instead of GM filling out his wish-list request at the trade deadline, of a big powerforward, a top 4 RHD and #4 veteran C that could have taken PK draws.
Its not his fault Boston lured Kadri into getting suspended and the coach losing one of his few players with push back ability.
Its not his fault many of the softer smaller wingers Kapanen, Johansson, Nylander had very little impact in a physical and tight defensive series.

Marner didn't set up a single 5v5 goal in the entire 7 game series, JT the $11 million dollar man scored a EN goals in game #1 and the only goal in a 5-1 loss in game #7. Nylander played 5 games at his preferred position in what should have been a mismatch but neither he more any of his linemates scored a single goal in the last 5 games.

Trevor Moore is a 4th line energy player and did his job, but his job is not to save all the other teammates from themselves.

I don't know why its all Babcock's fault for the all the under-performing players, and been given a team that most hockey insiders claimed was built for the regular season, but not the tough grind of the playoffs.

 

[GoonieFace]

Babcock should get his slice of the blame

But he didn't let in that soft first goal Andersen did.
He didn't tell Gardiner to drop the puck to nobody so Marcus Johansson could score the game winning goal.
Its not the coach's fault that he has Nic Petan and Justin Holl as his reserves to use, instead of GM filling out his wish-list request at the trade deadline, of a big powerforward, a top 4 RHD and #4 veteran C that could have taken PK draws.
Its not his fault Boston lured Kadri into getting suspended and the coach losing one of his few players with push back ability.
Its not his fault many of the softer smaller wingers Kapanen, Johansson, Nylander had very little impact in a physical and tight defensive series.

Marner didn't set up a single 5v5 goal in the entire 7 game series, JT the $11 million dollar man scored a game #1 EN goal and the only goal in a 5-1 loss in game #7. Nylander played 5 games at his preferred position in what should have been a mismatch but neither he more any of his linemates scored a single goal in the last 5 games.

Trevor Moore is a 4th line energy player and did his job, but his job is not to save all the other teammates from themselves.

I don't know why its all Babcock's fault for the all the under-performing players, and been given a team that most hockey insiders claimed was built for the regular season, but not the tough grind of the playoffs.

This is bang on. I am indifferent about Babcock, but the majority of the blame is on the players.

 

[mapleleafs34]

Because when it fails, he can insist he was RIGHT! Babcock does this all the damned time. We saw the same thing with the idea of pairing Matthews and Marner, and with pairing Reilly and Muzzin.

Remind me when/why either of those failed?

 

[93WrapAround]

Babcock would rather lose his way than win by doing something different.

This is the biggest problem I see, his ego. He knows the media/fans have been clamoring to see vets/gud pro's scaled back and skilled, young, energetic players scaled up - eg. the utter obviousness it would have been to slide Moore/Ennis to 3rd line for Willie, and have a 4th line checking line of Marleau/Goat/Brown. It literally made too much sense. Babcock knows all this, but THEN he would be admitting he's been wrong about Marleau, about Brown. He would much rather gamble with "his guys" because if they chip in eventually (see Marleau Game 7 2018) then he looks like the genius that stuck with his beliefs when no one else saw what he saw and that's why he's a HOF coach, etc, etc etc. If he DOESN'T pan out, hey we weren't even favoured in the series and it won't be because good vets like Connor and Marleau had a big role. The fact that he relented with 5 mins to go in Game 7 and finally pushed Moore/Ennis up with Willie when we were in desperate need of some offense is an admission of this supreme stubbornness. Could one not have argued that we were desperately in need of some spark much earlier in the series when we could have put this series away? Guy really waited until 5 min left down 2 goals to 'experiment' with a change when your 3rd line was doing absolutely nothing all series? It's way too little too late - he will die on his stubborn beliefs before admitting he's wrong and it's holding this team back.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

Facts don't lie. In his past seven playoffs, Babcock teams have made the second round once. ONCE.

I think there is an obvious disconnect between Babcock and Dubas, and these two won't be able to co-exist next season. Just my opinion, but I think there is something there.

That said, there are a myriad of reasons we lost this series, but the most glaring for me is the selfishness of #43. The strength of this team was the depth down the middle and his stupidity cost us a chance to exploit that against a team that was there for the taking.

I think this more than anything illustrates his brand of steadfast and stubborn inflexibility is the cause of his catastrophic failure and not the players or hand he’s dealt. He’s incapable of getting the best from players and completely lacks the agility required to adapt and COMPETE in today’s NHL

 

[Lightsol]

Remind me when/why either of those failed?

When he finally threw up his hands last year and tried the Matthews/Marner pairing, he threw Matt Martin on the wing with them and waited for it to fail. This year, he threw Patrick Marleau on the wing and waited for it to fail. When the Leafs first got Muzzin, it took Babcock all of three games to decide that the Reilly-Muzzin pairing wasn't working and to bump Hainsey back up to the #2 spot.

 

[Just Rude]

#43 isn't selfish, no way can you say that about a player who has sacrificed his body for the good of team more than any other player on this team since the lockout. What he lacks is self-control and that's why he can't be trusted.

Perhaps, but we are arguing semantics. When I say selfish, what he did was indeed selfish as it significantly hurt the team. If you want to sacrifice your body for the good of the team, you do it with a good hit or by throwing the mitts down, not by getting yourself kicked out of a series for the second year in a row.

He wanted to avenge a teammate, much like he did last year with Marner, which is noble. But he needed to find another way to do it.

I think this particular play was a combination of self-control, selfishness and stupidity. Different words that all point to the same thing. He cost his team again (and I'm a big Kadri fan).

 

[Gary Nylund]

Perhaps, but we are arguing semantics. When I say selfish, what he did was indeed selfish as it significantly hurt the team. If you want to sacrifice your body for the good of the team, you do it with a good hit or by throwing the mitts down, not by getting yourself kicked out of a series for the second year in a row.

He wanted to avenge a teammate, much like he did last year with Marner, which is noble. But he needed to find another way to do it.

I think this particular play was a combination of self-control, selfishness and stupidity. Different words that all point to the same thing. He cost his team again (and I'm a big Kadri fan).

To me, the word selfish implies that Kadri somehow benefited from his actions - he didn't.

 

[Mr Knies Guy]

Or maybe this current Leafs team really isn't that good. Once the real season began (game 30 or so), this was team on pace for 93 points, which doesn't even get them in the playoffs.

As a longtime Leaf fan, this is also one of the least appealing teams to rout for from a player personnel standpoint. That's just my opinion.

I agree with this. In a way, it’s nice to fantasize losing may bring about the change required but we all know deep down that Babs’ massive contract will be the roadblock and that Dubas is averse to building teams that are the archetype of successful PLAYOFF teams. I’m not saying you need goons, I’m saying team building should be limited to strictly high skill players when the reality is many of them are small and wilt when the whistles get put away and the ice gets tight. Analytics sometimes don’t trump what we all see which is that Boston’s bottom six has completely crushed ours for two straight years and it all comes down to obvious compete and grit that isn’t throwing hands but finishing checks, applying torrential pressure and giving everything you have.

 

[Just Rude]

I think this more than anything illustrates his brand of steadfast and stubborn inflexibility is the cause of his catastrophic failure and not the players or hand he’s dealt. He’s incapable of getting the best from players and completely lacks the agility required to adapt and COMPETE in today’s NHL

It's a results-driven business, and Babcock's record in his past seven trips to the playoffs speaks for itself. If we are going to praise the guy for winning a Cup 11 years ago, and for coaching some of the best teams ever assembled to Olympic and World Cup gold, you also have to acknowledge his teams have made the second round once since 2011-12. He gets a free pass for the Washington series, but the others? It's alarming if you're a Leaf fan.

The game has changed in the past decade, but Babcock is stuck in his ways and is too stubborn to adapt.

All that said, Dubas is not exempt from the blame either.