Rumor: Babcock linked to Pens rumors

[vladdy16]

The Red Wings have severely underachieved since 2008, and I think that is being glossed over. Maybe because Babcock looks and talks the part.

The bottom line is that the head coach has as big an affect as any other individual, and we've turned from a cup contender to a perrenial fringe team. 2008 was a long time ago, and Babcock had only been with the team a couple years.

 

[Heaton]

The Red Wings have severely underachieved since 2008, and I think that is being glossed over. Maybe because Babcock looks and talks the part.

The bottom line is that the head coach has as big an affect as any other individual, and we've turned from a cup contender to a perrenial fringe team. 2008 was a long time ago, and Babcock had only been with the team a couple years.

Sorry - I don't see how this team has underachieved since the team hasn't had any roster improvements up until this year. We lost Hossa, a productive Samuelsson, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart and added zero impact players up until this year.

If anything, this team has performed exactly as expected.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Sorry - I don't see how this team has underachieved since the team hasn't had any roster improvements up until this year. We lost Hossa, a productive Samuelsson, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart and added zero impact players up until this year.

If anything, this team has performed exactly as expected.

From 2007-09 we were as good as anyone. Brian Burke was able to get Chris Pronger for table scraps and the Ducks won a Cup in 2007 when we gave them all they could handle despite Kronwall and Schneider being injured. If we were healthy we could have won that series and the Cup.

In 2009 if Lids and Pavel were healthy I have no doubt we destroy the Pens. Hockey is like that though, sometimes you can't overcome your injuries and you lose.

Since 2009 I don't think any Wings fan truly believes we are among the best teams in the league. There's been a big drop off in talent and the retreads Holland has added to the roster haven't done much if anything to address the drop off in talent. Hopefully the scouts have done a good job restocking the talent pool. The prospects at forward were better than the garbage Holland signed as UFAs, and there's reason to believe the prospects on defense are better than our bottom 2-3 on defense.

So yeah, we are not competitive and haven't been for nearly half a decade but that's entirely a talent issue. Tough to blame that on the coach.

 

[vladdy16]

I'm pretty confident in the organizations ability to stock talent. Develanno, Anderson and Nill are as reliable as you can get. I think mistrusting that pipeline was a mistake we couldn't afford to make in the cap era, and now we've devolved into the mighty ducks.

Lidstrom was a big loss, any other part was replaceable. 13,40 and 55 have been three of the best playoff performers in the league for seven years, that's not the core of a team that should be scrambling to make the playoffs or losing to Nashville in the first round.

If the coaches only job was to draw up a gameplan for the pieces he has any given night, I'd easily agree with you guys. But the coach does a lot more to shape the team than that.

 

[Heaton]

I'm pretty confident in the organizations ability to stock talent. Develanno, Anderson and Nill are as reliable as you can get. I think mistrusting that pipeline was a mistake we couldn't afford to make in the cap era, and now we've devolved into the mighty ducks.

Lidstrom was a big loss, any other part was replaceable. 13,40 and 55 have been three of the best playoff performers in the league for seven years, that's not the core of a team that should be scrambling to make the playoffs or losing to Nashville in the first round.

If the coaches only job was to draw up a gameplan for the pieces he has any given night, I'd easily agree with you guys. But the coach does a lot more to shape the team than that.

Yet they weren't replaced.

 

[vladdy16]

Yet they weren't replaced.

They were replaced, they weren't replaced well. I think more of that falls on the coach than is usually considered when these discussions come up.

 

[Heaton]

They were replaced, they weren't replaced well. I think more of that falls on the coach than is usually considered when these discussions come up.

The coach always gets too much blame and too much credit. I think especially in a discussion like this putting that much blame on the coach basically absolves the players. There's no question that this team has gotten worse from a personnel perspective every year since 2009 with zero improvements. Expecting this team to stay at the same level or get better is just looking for reasons to blame someone.

You can't lose Rafalski and replace with Ian White and expect improvement. You can't lose Stuart and replace with Kindl and expect improvement. Babcock could've and should've made some different adjustments, but the best teams in the league (i.e. Chicago, LA, Boston) all make roster improvements every year. Holland? He trades for Quincey, signs Jason Williams, Mikael Samuelsson, Todd Bertuzzi. It's not even close.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Babcock plays who Holland gives him. Babcock played the hell out of Drake, Maltby, Draper, Helm etc... He plays Abdelkader up lines. Cleary was extremely gritty when he could skate. Your arguments don't hold much water especially considering the circumstances.

I get this argument, but a lot of these players are guys that Babcock is requesting. He is a big Sammy, Cleary and Bert fan for instance, he is on record as that.

Basically the only guy we know he wanted that wasn't a player that fit the exact description of a guy or was endorsed pretty publicly when signing was his quest for Brent Burns. Mind you a guy that is a worse turnover machine on the blue-line than anybody currently (yes he is that bad at defense) playing on our team. His understudy found him to be such a disaster he has been playing forward, now because of Salary and the decline of Boyle he will be attempted back on the blue-line again and what a horror show that is likely to be.

I think Holland is guilty of letting Babcock have too much say, sure it is the kind of respect he commands and he gets to choose the roles. But a bunch of these players we jump up and down about are guys he liked either when signing or fit the exact role he described in exit meetings. Tootoo is a classic example of this, a guy he liked as an opponent, fit a role he talked about a lot and then instantly fell out of favor. Wasn't he consulted, he certainly look consulted and then did an about face.

From the outside looking in there is a disconnect between both of them. Holland is his boss, he has ultimate say, but I understand the Babcock wants Tatar to sit and is the world class coach I cannot undercut him angle. I just think they both need to be a little more ruthless again, one of the reasons Babcock was so successful off the hop was incorporating our puck possession talent with his grimier system and then throwing some of the conventional country club mentality out. Well it is back, same place too long, both these guys need to get over attachments and be a little more aggressive and less worried about the logo and the right way all the time. Pro sports isn't a make everyone your friend business and in that regard Babcock and Holland both talk a bigger game than we have been seeing later.

You talk about jobs being open in camp, next year they better be and that falls on both guys to make that happen.

 

[vladdy16]

The coach always gets too much blame and too much credit. I think especially in a discussion like this putting that much blame on the coach basically absolves the players. There's no question that this team has gotten worse from a personnel perspective every year since 2009 with zero improvements. Expecting this team to stay at the same level or get better is just looking for reasons to blame someone.

You can't lose Rafalski and replace with Ian White and expect improvement. You can't lose Stuart and replace with Kindl and expect improvement. Babcock could've and should've made some different adjustments, but the best teams in the league (i.e. Chicago, LA, Boston) all make roster improvements every year. Holland? He trades for Quincey, signs Jason Williams, Mikael Samuelsson, Todd Bertuzzi. It's not even close.

Right on. Hollands performance has been bad in that time frame. But to be clear, the main point I'm trying to make is that babcock has more influence on the direction of the team than just day to day line-ups and x's and o's. I feel comfortable making the argument that the gm's poor performance can be linked to the presence of the head coach to a fairly significant degree.

Simply said, I think Babcock's personality is too strong to mesh well with Hollands main(only?) strength of delegation. Many of those roster moves you referenced were reaches to appease Babcock's mistrust of the pipeline and certain styles of play, and his own faith that he could mold pieces from the scrap heap to fit his system.

I look at the age and performance of players like nyquist,tatar,filpulla and hudler, and I have to say that the vision of the front office as a whole in the 13/40/55 era warranted more faith than Babcock had in it. We've suffered through Quincy, Samuelson, Cleary, etc as a result.

I think it's a matter of preference more than anything, you can't prove right from wrong in conjecture and hypotheticals. A top 9 built around 13,40,21,14, filpulla and hudler could've been a frustrating bad version of recent montreal teams. I just think it's worth considering the other side of things, when folks seem to absolve the coach of all responsibilty for the shape and direction of the organization.

The fact is whatever the reason, the last half decade has sucked.

I may be crying over spilt milk at this point, considering how many key voices in the front office have moved on. But I'm still concerned that a change may be in order, considering what a great crop of talent we have coming in, and the roles that have been handed recently to players like lashoff, glendenning, anderson, etc.

While Yzerman seems to be attempting to aim a whole organization into a perennial power in Tampa, we seem to be decreasing the decision making voices and settling into a role as perennial gritty underdog. I think that sells the pedigree of our scouting staff short.

 

[Heaton]

I get this argument, but a lot of these players are guys that Babcock is requesting. He is a big Sammy, Cleary and Bert fan for instance, he is on record as that.
.

I disagree completely. Babcock likes Samuelsson/Cleary/Bert type of guys, but as you've seen this year, it doesn't have to be Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson or Todd Bertuzzi, those are the only guys Holland would be willing to give him. Holland LOVES retreads, he always has, long before Babcock was even here he loved them. He loves what is comfortable, what is familiar. Played in the same conference for a decade? He's on his list.

As for the Tatar talk, it's extremely common for rookies to get the short end of the stick at some point of the season. The good players break through regardless. The guys who haven't 'worked' in Babcock's system haven't exactly flourished elsewhere. Filppula had a great season in Tampa, but he also had great seasons in Detroit in his role.

Bottom line, Babcock plays who Holland will agree to give him. We need RH Defensemen? Babcock DEMANDS RH/LH combo for the entire olympics and Holland gives him Ian White (who admittedly played great for half a season with Lidstrom). To be perfectly honest, Babcock hasn't gotten close to the pieces that he feels he needs to win, Holland just is unwilling to make the trades, signings, decisions that will get this team back to a team that can win more than a round in the playoffs.

With that said, Babcock obviously hasn't used the pieces perfectly, but even if he did, can we say with much confidence it would've made a whole lot of difference in the playoffs?

 

[Flowah]

But to be clear, the main point I'm trying to make is that babcock has more influence on the direction of the team than just day to day line-ups and x's and o's. I feel comfortable making the argument that the gm's poor performance can be linked to the presence of the head coach to a fairly significant degree.

Babcock might have influence on who Holland signs but as GM, Holland needs to be able to shut down a coach if he asks for Cleary last season. He just does. If he can't do that and Cleary get played for ~50 games and is completely worthless, he needs to re-evaluate his responsibilities as GM. It's not about making the coach happy or giving a player a job. It's about the best team you can ice.

I even agree that Babcock should have some say. He obviously has a system and he wants players who can play that system. But still, as GM, you should be able to see that a player is just not physically capable of doing it and should say no.

 

[Henkka]

I disagree completely. Babcock likes Samuelsson/Cleary/Bert type of guys, but as you've seen this year, it doesn't have to be Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson or Todd Bertuzzi, those are the only guys Holland would be willing to give him. Holland LOVES retreads, he always has, long before Babcock was even here he loved them. He loves what is comfortable, what is familiar. Played in the same conference for a decade? He's on his list.

More than Holland loves retreads, he loves good valued contracts during salary cap era. If you start overpaying for every half-decent UFA, that does not carry you anywhere else than in cap trouble. "Retreaded veterans" just work with the cap. I'm not saying that Sammy's latest or Cleary were good signing, those were bad deal, but many of those vet deals have been good valued as effort/caphit.

Bottom line, Babcock plays who Holland will agree to give him. We need RH Defensemen? Babcock DEMANDS RH/LH combo for the entire olympics and Holland gives him Ian White (who admittedly played great for half a season with Lidstrom). To be perfectly honest, Babcock hasn't gotten close to the pieces that he feels he needs to win, Holland just is unwilling to make the trades, signings, decisions that will get this team back to a team that can win more than a round in the playoffs.

Unwilling is a bad word. I have willingness to get the most beautiful woman in the world, or 2nd most beautiful, or 3rd most, but usually those are "contracted" to other guys.

There just hasn't been that kind of RH defenceman in the market, that would have been a clear update for the team since Michigan-native Rafalski wanted to come here. Overpaying for someone "Wisniewski" could not have made any difference. You have to grow those guys by yourself, because no one is going trade their RHDs to create same problem in their own team, and that's what is finally happening. There just isn't those deals in the air, willingness or not.

 

[Frk It]

More than Holland loves retreads, he loves good valued contracts during salary cap era. If you start overpaying for every half-decent UFA, that does not carry you anywhere else than in cap trouble. "Retreaded veterans" just work with the cap. I'm not saying that Sammy's latest or Cleary were good signing, those were bad deal, but many of those vet deals have been good valued as effort/caphit.

Giving 3 million to 13th forwards is just inexcusably awful.

Unwilling is a bad word. I have willingness to get the most beautiful woman in the world, or 2nd most beautiful, or 3rd most, but usually those are "contracted" to other guys.

There just hasn't been that kind of RH defenceman in the market, that would have been a clear update for the team since Michigan-native Rafalski wanted to come here. Overpaying for someone "Wisniewski" could not have made any difference. You have to grow those guys by yourself, because no one is going trade their RHDs to create same problem in their own team, and that's what is finally happening. There just isn't those deals in the air, willingness or not.

Overpaying for a UFA would make a big difference. It would have made us a better team over the last 2-3 years. I see people suggesting we should trade a 1st and prospect for Ehrhoff. We could have Ehrhoff for next to nothing in free agency. We would be in much better shape had we just overplayed for 1 FA. It would have prevented the Quincey debacle.

Ideally it's best to grow from within. But we don't have an Ehrhoff or Wisniewski level guy right now to put in the lineup.

 

[Henkka]

Getting Ehrhoff would still have put Babcock dream about those RHDs. He is left-handed and not a difference maker for anything we have.

 

[Heaton]

More than Holland loves retreads, he loves good valued contracts during salary cap era. If you start overpaying for every half-decent UFA, that does not carry you anywhere else than in cap trouble. "Retreaded veterans" just work with the cap. I'm not saying that Sammy's latest or Cleary were good signing, those were bad deal, but many of those vet deals have been good valued as effort/caphit.

He's had some good values, White was a good value and provided some structure. But the majority of the retreads were not good values. Samuelsson was not. Bertuzzi's value hasn't been there the last few years. Quincey definitely wasn't a good value for the majority of his stay. Jason Williams etc... I understand your point, getting good valued veterans is extremely important, but Holland has valued familiarity over actual productive players.

 

[Frk It]

Getting Ehrhoff would still have put Babcock dream about those RHDs. He is left-handed and not a difference maker for anything we have.

Christian Ehrhoff is a huge difference maker over what we currently have on defense. Left handed or not.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I disagree completely. Babcock likes Samuelsson/Cleary/Bert type of guys, but as you've seen this year, it doesn't have to be Dan Cleary, Mikael Samuelsson or Todd Bertuzzi, those are the only guys Holland would be willing to give him. Holland LOVES retreads, he always has, long before Babcock was even here he loved them. He loves what is comfortable, what is familiar. Played in the same conference for a decade? He's on his list.

As for the Tatar talk, it's extremely common for rookies to get the short end of the stick at some point of the season. The good players break through regardless. The guys who haven't 'worked' in Babcock's system haven't exactly flourished elsewhere. Filppula had a great season in Tampa, but he also had great seasons in Detroit in his role.

Bottom line, Babcock plays who Holland will agree to give him. We need RH Defensemen? Babcock DEMANDS RH/LH combo for the entire olympics and Holland gives him Ian White (who admittedly played great for half a season with Lidstrom). To be perfectly honest, Babcock hasn't gotten close to the pieces that he feels he needs to win, Holland just is unwilling to make the trades, signings, decisions that will get this team back to a team that can win more than a round in the playoffs.

With that said, Babcock obviously hasn't used the pieces perfectly, but even if he did, can we say with much confidence it would've made a whole lot of difference in the playoffs?

Babcock tells Holland he needs right handed shots on the power play. Holland gets White and Samuelsson. The only impressive free agent signing Holland has had since the cap era is Marian Hossa for one year. Holland generally signs crap because crap is cheap.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Babcock tells Holland he needs right handed shots on the power play. Holland gets White and Samuelsson. The only impressive free agent signing Holland has had since the cap era is Marian Hossa for one year. Holland generally signs crap because crap is cheap.

Or because stuff that isn't crap is in high demand and can choose the path they desire. See: Suter, Ryan.

 

[Henkka]

Too bad Rafalski wasn't impressive free agent signing.

 

[AD1066]

Outside of Crosby and Malkin, Pittsburgh doesn't seem to be in as great of shape as other perennial contenders like CHI, BOS, STL, LAK, ANA.

Is it purely the appeal of coaching those two that would potentially lure him away, or maybe just wanting a change of scenery? I don't think his Cup chances would be that much higher than they are presently.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Outside of Crosby and Malkin, Pittsburgh doesn't seem to be in as great of shape as other perennial contenders like CHI, BOS, STL, LAK, ANA.

Is it purely the appeal of coaching those two that would potentially lure him away, or maybe just wanting a change of scenery? I don't think his Cup chances would be that much higher than they are presently.

i'd take their chances over STL unless they can find high-end center. sobotka/berglund doesn't cut it as 2C.

CHI is in better shape for sure. LA, strong case there too. BOS, maybe. chara is slowing down and they may have to do some cap crunching moves again. give pens babcock and some roster tweaks (easier said than done though) and i'd take them over B's.

ANA needs better 2nd line and better D. i'd take pens over them though ANA's depth is impressive and they have tons of assets to use. they have drafted well.

fix the G on pens, get better depth get rid of bylsma and 'grind the ****ers down' system that is easily shutdown when one eliminates their stretch pass. and get crosby real winger, dupuis or gibbons doesn't cut it. though babcock would probably give him some crap as he gives datsyuk too here.

 

[Henkka]

Outside of Crosby and Malkin, Pittsburgh doesn't seem to be in as great of shape as other perennial contenders like CHI, BOS, STL, LAK, ANA.

Is it purely the appeal of coaching those two that would potentially lure him away, or maybe just wanting a change of scenery? I don't think his Cup chances would be that much higher than they are presently.

Pittsburgh is great example on offence-only 1-2 punch superstar centers.

It's the exact opposite of our greatest teams that had defensively great Yzerman-Fedorov or Datsyuk-Zetterberg 1-2 punches.

No wonder that those Selke-Trophy Toewses, Bergerons or Kopitars win those nowadays Cups.

 

[AD1066]

Pittsburgh is great example on offence-only 1-2 punch superstar centers.

It's the exact opposite of our greatest teams that had defensively great Yzerman-Fedorov or Datsyuk-Zetterberg 1-2 punches.

No wonder that those Selke-Trophy Toewses, Bergerons or Kopitars win those nowadays Cups.

Two-way play from your best players is a great thing to have but it doesn't win Cups by itself.

I'd still take either of the Pittsburgh stars over any of the Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar group. Pens just don't have the depth of those other teams.

 

[Heaton]

Two-way play from your best players is a great thing to have but it doesn't win Cups by itself.

I'd still take either of the Pittsburgh stars over any of the Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar group. Pens just don't have the depth of those other teams.

I think Malkin and Crosby have both had some really good post season performances, but Bergeron, Kopitar and Toews have been better. I don't think it would make sense to take anyone over Crosby especially since you're getting him for at least 82 games a year but depth or not, those guys you mentioned have been more impactful during the post season.

The other flipside of the coin is we've seen guys like Datsyuk and Z stand out during losses many times, when the Pens lose, their stars always seem to come up short.

 

[AD1066]

I think Malkin and Crosby have both had some really good post season performances, but Bergeron, Kopitar and Toews have been better. I don't think it would make sense to take anyone over Crosby especially since you're getting him for at least 82 games a year but depth or not, those guys you mentioned have been more impactful during the post season.

The other flipside of the coin is we've seen guys like Datsyuk and Z stand out during losses many times, when the Pens lose, their stars always seem to come up short.

What about Malkin's Conn Smythe playoff run? I think it was 36 points, the most in 15 years or so if I recall correctly. Or Crosby for example has 114 points in 95 playoff games, while Toews has 75 points in 89 games. 39 more points in 6 more games.

My point is that two-way play is a great thing to have, but all this talk of Toews being a winner is meaningless if guys like Kane, Sharp, Hossa, and Keith aren't there to step it up when he's not producing. Maybe the lower salary of a two-way #1 C compared to Crosby and Malkin allows the allocation of cap for a better supporting cast, but all else being equal I take Pittsburgh's stars every time. No amount of intangibles or vague notions of being a winner make up for the offensive disparity.

-- just realized I'm way off topic, sorry to derail.

As for Babcock, what's the standard procedure here? If he doesn't sign an extension during the offseason, is that basically the same as admitting up front that he's moving on?

Or is there still a window in which he might sign another deal, one season or otherwise? I'm not really familiar with the signing of coaches and the window we're working against here.