Rumor: Babcock linked to Pens rumors

[Run the Jewels]

Not saying this is gonna happen. Just throwing this out there for fun during a very slow time of the year with no hockey going on today other than the 94 Finals on the NHL Network.

Ken Holland gets bumped up to a role in the organization like Jimmy Devellano.

The Red Wings hire Ray Shero as General Manager. Holland has been far too petrified to make trades, meanwhile Shero has acquired James Neal, Matt Niskanen and Chris Kunitz, all very good NHL players. He knows personnel.

Babs signs for a couple years to see how the transition works. We are clearly going with a youth movement and if we have a new GM it might make sense for the best coach in hockey to give himself some options should things not improve over how they have been trending the past few years.

Blashill is signed to a very lucrative contract to keep him in the fold in the event things don't work out with Babcock. He is the coach in waiting for as long as we need a coach in waiting. He essentially gets "over-ripe" in true Holland fashion.

We keep our scouting team which has largely done a nice job. We acquire a GM who knows how to properly value talent and make trades that improve your hockey club. We keep the best coach in the world.

I am not saying this is going to happen, just that it's fun to consider. We have far too many prospects for the roster spots available and someone needs to make some trades. Holland doesn't seem to have a good handle on this while Shero clearly does.

 

[Bench]

Holland doesn't seem to have a good handle on this while Shero clearly does.

You're forgetting the misses from Shero, though.

Remember trading for rentals like Doug Murray? Morrow? They lost really good prospects/picks in those deals. Basically the Legwand deal, but twice in one deadline.

What I will say is that he maximized returns from players that didn't have a future with the team. Goligoski, Staal, and Ryan Whitney were all good deals for the team. I'd like to see Holland actually move a guy when they have value and no future with the team rather than let them slip away for nothing (Hudler) or simply have players that never build value at all, ala Kindl.

I do consider it a criminal failure the Penguins don't have another Cup to their name. They were gifted a core every bit as strong as Chicago and have failed to convert. When you have the top 2 centers in the NHL in their prime (or whatever, 2 of the top 5), you're built for success every single year.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

You're forgetting the misses from Shero, though.

Remember trading for rentals like Doug Murray? Morrow? They lost really good prospects/picks in those deals. Basically the Legwand deal, but twice in one deadline.

What I will say is that he maximized returns from players that didn't have a future with the team. Goligoski, Staal, and Ryan Whitney were all good deals for the team. I'd like to see Holland actually move a guy when they have value and no future with the team rather than let them slip away for nothing (Hudler) or simply have players that never build value at all, ala Kindl.

I do consider it a criminal failure the Penguins don't have another Cup to their name. They were gifted a core every bit as strong as Chicago and have failed to convert. When you have the top 2 centers in the NHL in their prime (or whatever, 2 of the top 5), you're built for success every single year.

It also discounts the fact that Holland hasn't made trades because he's thought prices were too high. Bringing in another guy doesn't make the prices lower, it just means Shero ends up making deals that Holland thinks were bad value.

 

[Frk It]

What I will say is that he maximized returns from players that didn't have a future with the team. Goligoski, Staal, and Ryan Whitney were all good deals for the team. I'd like to see Holland actually move a guy when they have value and no future with the team rather than let them slip away for nothing (Hudler) or simply have players that never build value at all, ala Kindl.
.

Seriously. My biggest gripe.

The fact that we developed guys like Hudler and Filppula into really good secondary players, and then they both walked and we got nothing, really irks me.

I don't even fault Shero that much for those Morrow and Murray deals, because they were definitely in the right place to go all in and make those types of trades. He constructed a team good enough to win it all IMO, his players just didn't get it done.

Those trades were not like 2 Legwand trades. That trade made sense because they were legit contenders, and that's the appropriate time to be a buyer at the deadline.

When you are a bubble playoff team and it is apparent your best players aren't healthy, you have no reason to be a buyer for rentals at the deadline. Absolutely none.

Made way more sense for the Pens. But since they didn't win it all they still deserve criticism. But situations were not the same at all.

 

[Run the Jewels]

It also discounts the fact that Holland hasn't made trades because he's thought prices were too high. Bringing in another guy doesn't make the prices lower, it just means Shero ends up making deals that Holland thinks were bad value.

You're whistling past the graveyard. Holland has been in his spot for a very long time. He has no idea how to make trades now that there's a hard salary cap. We need a GM who can make trades and accurately value your home grown talent. Shero isn't perfect - hahahahaha he took the Stars to the cleaners - but he's shown he has very good instincts.

We need a GM who can rebuild us into a Cup contender. There's plenty of data to suggest that ain't Holland. Sorry if this hurts some feelings.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Doing nothing can be just as destructive as a bad trade.

 

[InjuredChoker]

You're whistling past the graveyard. Holland has been in his spot for a very long time. He has no idea how to make trades now that there's a hard salary cap. We need a GM who can make trades and accurately value your home grown talent. Shero isn't perfect - hahahahaha he took the Stars to the cleaners - but he's shown he has very good instincts.

We need a GM who can rebuild us into a Cup contender. There's plenty of data to suggest that ain't Holland. Sorry if this hurts some feelings.

plenty of data to suggest that ain't shero either.

nieuwendyk was a tard so robbing him doesn't really qualify as a good GM.

i don't blame him going all out last year.

but bad drafting, lack of depth, dan bylsma and inability to get crosby great wingers isn't that good track record.

i don't think he's a bad GM but he hasn't done enough to suggest that he's an upgrade over holland.

shero ain't getting us young #1 center or #1 D either. you have to draft them. that's how everyone does it.

holland could definitely rebuild this team but you need high picks for that. can't really fault him for not being able to re-build when they haven't even tried that.

 

[Run the Jewels]

plenty of data to suggest that ain't shero either.

nieuwendyk was a tard so robbing him doesn't really qualify as a good GM.

i don't blame him going all out last year.

but bad drafting, lack of depth, dan bylsma and inability to get crosby great wingers isn't that good track record.

i don't think he's a bad GM but he hasn't done enough to suggest that he's an upgrade over holland.

If you look at how much talent has left - Stevie to Tampa, Nill to Dallas - there's no one in the organization who can take over. So you are relying on Holland to continue to do his job. He's shown he has no real ability to improve the club through trades or free agent signings. So you are hoping we can completely rebuild from within via the draft.

That's a pretty big bet to make. Given how we handle talent it will be at least 2 years until a prospect on defense makes the team and our top prospects at forward - Mantha and Pulkkinen - will not make the roster for another 1-2 years so we can hold onto Callahan and Ferraro.

Our drafting is in fine hands, we need a GM who can improve our roster through trades or through free agent signings. There isn't much outside of Brian Rafalski to suggest Holland is capable of upgrading the roster beyond hoping the draft will turn us back into Cup contenders.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i don't think there's UFA available now that turns red wings into cup contenders. there was ones in 11 and 12 but holland missed, big time. and deserves big blame for that.

i'm not sure how much blame he should get on weiss and cleary as they seem like babcock signings but ultimately, he's responsible.

i think his passiveness has hurt the team somewhat but those high end players that would turn us into contenders haven't been available or we haven't had the pieces. maybe bogo and bouwmeester, guess edler too. but i can't blame him for balking at those prices.

i don't think he's the best GM in the league but don't see shero or anyone else available being clearly ahead of him. i wanted nill to be GM but as that ship sailed, he's staying put for a while. and he's track record is so good that he can **** up as much as he wants and still have a job.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Seems pretty clear cut Detroit will either have Blashill or Babcock as coach for the foreseeable future. Doesn't even sound like they are looking at other options.

I',m not complaining just think theres a lot more prestige and money(which the wings seems to want to match) for a NHL heacd coach

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I mean. Shero gave up valuable assets for Doug Freakin Murray and Brendan ****ing Morrow. These trades weren't done in 2007. Sooooooo.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

You're whistling past the graveyard. Holland has been in his spot for a very long time. He has no idea how to make trades now that there's a hard salary cap. We need a GM who can make trades and accurately value your home grown talent. Shero isn't perfect - hahahahaha he took the Stars to the cleaners - but he's shown he has very good instincts.

We need a GM who can rebuild us into a Cup contender. There's plenty of data to suggest that ain't Holland. Sorry if this hurts some feelings.

I don't think it's that Holland can't make trades. He can. I'm sure if Holland was offered that Dallas trade, for example, he would have made it.

I do wonder if other teams won't trade with him, though. They probably view him as a bit of a weird guy who's always trying to sell you on some prospect that your scouts didn't like that much. He won't give to get, and you don't always know that you're getting good value. One of the unwritten code of conduct things GMs have is that if a guy fleeces you too often, you don't deal with him anymore. I wonder if teams perceive Holland as trying to fleece them. After all, his trade strategy is probably not far from his free agency strategy: low ball all the way.

 

[Frk It]

I mean. Shero gave up valuable assets for Doug Freakin Murray and Brendan ****ing Morrow. These trades weren't done in 2007. Sooooooo.

Both play the type of game that works well in the playoffs when the checking tightens.

My friend who's a pens fan liked both of them.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think it's that Holland can't make trades. He can. I'm sure if Holland was offered that Dallas trade, for example, he would have made it.

I do wonder if other teams won't trade with him, though. They probably view him as a bit of a weird guy who's always trying to sell you on some prospect that your scouts didn't like that much. He won't give to get, and you don't always know that you're getting good value.

How do you know that Shero was offered the trade, and didn't agressively initiate and create the trade?

Look at the amount of trades Shero has made vs Holland. It's quite clear Shero is more agressive and creative.

Holland is one of the most conservative and reactionary GM's there is. I highly doubt the same opportunities would be available for both guys.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

How do you know that Shero was offered the trade, and didn't agressively initiate and create the trade?

Look at the amount of trades Shero has made vs Holland. It's quite clear Shero is more agressive and creative.

Holland is one of the most conservative and reactionary GM's there is. I highly doubt the same opportunities would be available for both guys.

I don't think Holland is reactionary. You might think that the Legwand trade is evidence of that, but I have a feeling that he was "advised" by somebody that the Wings better make the playoffs. Because he goes from ultra-conservative to making a stupid trade out of nowhere. It's actually uncharacteristic of him; he tends not to be reactionary at all. Hell, he barely reacts to anything most of the time. It's all sit and wait.

Besides, wouldn't be the first time that rumor has come up. I think we heard last season or the season before that somebody in the Ilitch camp was seriously stressing that the Wings must keep making the playoffs. The speculation was that it was a money thing, with Ilitch trying so hard to win with the Tigers and funneling all his money to them.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Both play the type of game that works well in the playoffs when the checking tightens.

My friend who's a pens fan liked both of them.

both of them play a game that sucks in the playoffs.

5 years ago or even 3? yeah. not now nor last year.

well morrow wasn't bad but trade was definitely overpayment.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Both play the type of game that works well in the playoffs when the checking tightens.

My friend who's a pens fan liked both of them.

I live in central PA, my Penguin friends hated them. Also, their fenwick corsi numbers were/are terrible, and their puck possession numbers were god awful. Turn over machines. Short and sweet. They suck. Hell, even the trade forum was mocking Shero when the trades occurred because both Dallas and Sharks fans had felt that they fleeced Pittsburgh.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think Holland is reactionary. You might think that the Legwand trade is evidence of that, but I have a feeling that he was "advised" by somebody that the Wings better make the playoffs. Because he goes from ultra-conservative to making a stupid trade out of nowhere. It's actually uncharacteristic of him; he tends not to be reactionary at all. Hell, he barely reacts to anything most of the time. It's all sit and wait.

Besides, wouldn't be the first time that rumor has come up. I think we heard last season or the season before that somebody in the Ilitch camp was seriously stressing that the Wings must keep making the playoffs. The speculation was that it was a money thing, with Ilitch trying so hard to win with the Tigers and funneling all his money to them.

My opinion- I think he's very reactionary.

Sits on his hands and doesn't make moves until he has to.

Example- prospects don't play on the team until they're out of waivers and have to be on the team. Even if they're better than guys on the team.

And moreso than the Legwand deal, which yes I think was reactionary.

Holland knew Lidstrom was getting close to the end. Knew Stuart had family in California. Knew Rafalski was playing on one knee.

Off seasons come and go, and he wouldn't take any risks and pony up money for an upgrade on d

The result? Deadline before lids retires and stu leaves he trades 1st for KFQ. Definition of being reactive vs proactive in my eyes. Sits on his hands, sits on his hands til he realizes he has to do something then overpays on an underwhelming trade for a retread he's comfortable me with. Really a clear cut example for me.

 

[InjuredChoker]

open play corsi. meaning ignores face off effects that might screw the results if one is on the ice for lot of FO losses or d-zone starts etc.

tatar is pretty good. just wait till he learns to cut on those turnovers.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Tatar has been a Corsi machine for the past two seasons when he's played, and that was with completely different linemates:

Andersson and Miller in 12-13, and
Sheahan and Jurco in 13-14

He's also been top tier in goals/minute for us when he's played.

He creates a lot of chances in the offensive zone with his awareness and energetic battle. IMO he has more potential if he can finish better, which is surprising for a guy that has shown his skill level. But he gets a lot of chances that don't end up in the back of the net. But the fact that he gets those chances so often is nothing but good. He led us in shots on goal against Boston in round 1, but obviously couldn't capitalize on some of his grand opportunities.

In the defensive zone he's never going to be great. He'll battle and should improve in that aspect, but he's a confident player who's not always going to make a coaches' play.

He lacks neutral zone vision, but he's a very good puck carrier. This is where most of his turnovers occur, but in reality they're not often costly turnovers because they occur when he's the lead puck carrier (thus there's support behind him).

On the PP is where he becomes a bit more risky as the puck carrier, because he's often carrying it on a drop pass where the support and structure is not the same at even strength.

Overall I think he's a huge asset. He's already a scoring 3rd liner who drives a lines chances, with the ability to become even more (goal scoring top 6 forward.) Depth scoring and guys who like to shoot are what we've been wanting for years. Well, we developed one now.

 

[Vladdy84]

Tat's is awesome and is only gonna get better. Foolish to trade him unless it's for a MAJOR upgrade on D. Not Erhoff or Edler. If Tat's plays a full season with skilled linemates, he can be a 25 goal 50+ Pt player easily IMO.

 

[Frk It]

Tat's is awesome and is only gonna get better. Foolish to trade him unless it's for a MAJOR upgrade on D. Not Erhoff or Edler. If Tat's plays a full season with skilled linemates, he can be a 25 goal 50+ Pt player easily IMO.

Looking at our defensive corps... Edler and Ehrhoff would both be a major upgrade on D IMO.

Anything better that and we're looking more at giving up Nyquist or Mantha IMO.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i think tatar is one of the best 3rd line LWs. saad is ahead of him... can't think of other off hand. maybe galchenyuk if he counts.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Looking at our defensive corps... Edler and Ehrhoff would both be a major upgrade on D IMO.

Anything better that and we're looking more at giving up Nyquist or Mantha IMO.

Truth. I don't even know if we can get appropriate value out of Tats, but he is probably our most movable asset where we hope the return is right and it isn't terrible for us. He should wind up a pretty good player, in fact going to the Sabres or Vancouver where he can get better minutes might help him on an individual level.

We will see, I kind of expect Babcock to start punishing him for turnovers next year. The one thing about Tats is he does have that amazing drive we like our players to have in terms of that inner fire for greatness. I just wonder in terms of a fix he is the realistic target and guy we want to move. I don't think he is a bad player, but I am not sure his ceiling gets as high as some want it to be. Turnovers are likely to exist on some level given how he plays the games, if he sticks around I want that area to be much better.

But if we are shooting higher than Ehrhoff and Edler which is fine because we are likely adding on Tats for them, it is going to get even more expensive. Some of these kids that we like are going to go soon probably as soon as this summer, just the numbers dictate it at this point. We could probably wait one more year or into the season, but should be a lot of tire kicking and seeing who values which kids and for what.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

open play corsi. meaning ignores face off effects that might screw the results if one is on the ice for lot of FO losses or d-zone starts etc.

tatar is pretty good. just wait till he learns to cut on those turnovers.

Is there any way to match the quality of competition up against those stats?