Post-Game Talk: Babcock gets out-coached and team gets embarrassed again.

Drytoast

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
6,436
4,607
I'm gonna just pretend that the Leafs were dog tired. 3 games in 5 nights against 4 top tier teams...shit happens.

In the case of Willie, this is a contract year for him...this should motivate him to put up some numbers and some performances. If this doesn't motivate him, I don't know what will. This goes with Bozak and JVR. They are going to price themselves right out of the leagues if they keep playing like they have been.

Growing pains...
 

weems

Registered User
Jul 3, 2008
18,027
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The Nylander of the last few games look remarkably like the Nylander that started last season.

I think he has the two-way game in him to be both a reliable player and a center. He has a tendency right now to fade out of the games, and the good thing about the center position is that it demands that you are involved and active all the time. I think that's why he's historically looked better at center, because it keeps him from falling into some bad habits.

I also think longterm our team being built down the middle with Matthews - Nylander - Kadri is the most optimal. No team in the league would be able to match 3 centers of that quality and we are very healthy winger wise in the organization. Like you said it prolly forces Nylander our of some bad habits if hes at C fulltime even tho those seem to be weeded out for the most part.

I wonder if management would have the stones to make this transition mid season (esessntially trading Bozak/JVR, moving Nylander to C and hopefully add some more 2 way ability or D thru said trades or using those returning assets).
 
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A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,489
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I don't understand stand why Marleau and Nylander aren't on the same line. They can both play center 50% of the time.

JVR Matthews Marner
Marleau Nylander Hyman
Komarov Kadri Brown
Martin Bozak Kapanen
 

IPS

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
15,636
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I think Nylander at C would really bring out some of his best strengths. It's obvious he likes to be the primary puck carrier and the main transition man. He's honestly taken a back-seat to these things with Matthews playing the way he has this season.

Putting him at center will allow him to have the puck on his stick a lot of the time and let him operate with a lot of open ice. As long as they keep his match-ups somewhat sheltered, I think he'll thrive.
 

PromisedLand

I need more FOOD
Dec 3, 2016
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You pointing out individuals which is ironic because the issue is that the team is playing as individuals that is the hotmess.

All this talk about defense and the defensive zone during this poor stretch did we the fans learn anything on this road trip?

LA and STL are currently ranked #1 and #2 on defense and they just showed us all that they do it by means of not playing defense but being machines on the offensive cycle. They don't enter the O zone with the mind set to score lose the puck and find themselves playing D. No they enter the O zone with the commitment to establish a cycle. If they score they score off established structure play not individual greatness like the Leafs have on the hot start.

What happen to both LA and STL when they started to defend the lead and stopped executing the cycle? The Leafs started to make a comeback on them showing yet again that when your playing defense you taking faceoffes, rely too much on goaltending and are getting scored on.

So why is it that Babcock continues to chime in about working hard? Playing a cycle game starts on hard work.

Management has to get on there horses JVR must go, Bozak must go because it's gotten to the point they're effecting the rest of the team from being a strong cycle forcheck team that is the root of being a good defensive team. Told everybody that if you took Marner alway from these 2 it will expose the rest of the lines and looky looky things have gone from bad to worst.

You guys can blame Babcock all you want. Management has moved too slow to do what is needed JVR & Bozak must go for this team to start playing winning hockey from all it's lines not just 1 or 2.

giphy.gif
 

Morbo

The Annihilator
Jan 14, 2003
27,100
5,734
Toronto
We are a soft team to play against

We do not have a true number 1 Or number 2 dmen

Rielly and gardiner are 3/4 at best

The sooner we realize this and make changes
Then we can truly become contenders

I'm sure Leaf management realizes it fully. Don't think for a second that a vet at the end of his career like Hainsey on a short term deal was their plan A this offseason, it assuredly wasn't.

hopefully somebody of impact becomes available by the deadline. the money they threw at Zaitsev and the effort they've put in on the Euro guys they're bringing over tells me the trade market isn't great.
 

jrgtml67

Registered User
Sep 12, 2011
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How is that whining first off? Second off complaining about a slash to the head of Andersen that 1, was not seen by the official and 2 not challenged for some reason is viable. I still do not get why no challenge. May be because of the score, but that is a bad reason. I love Babcock, and know he didnt just forget how to coach, the blame is on the players for me, but still. Also I am praising Borgman, a rookie who looked the best on this trip easily. So I dont get your comment.

As well it maybe be year 2, and while we were even told the "pain," may not be over, as we squeaked in last year, the lack of compete and structure for 60minutes is something to worry about. Now I think (for example) period 1 is the way Babcock has coached us to play, period 2 is exactly the opposite of what Babcock has taught our guys, and period 3 was a mix of both. The LA game was the same, a tale of 2 teams. How is it we played LA so well after going down 3-0, didnt score, then forgot how to play then down 5-2 we suddenly remember. Like last night; period 1 we were playing well, good structure, smart passing. The magically forget come period 2?

The benching of Nylander had to happen as well. He has not looked himself, I have been saying this for a week now. He was shielded, somewhat, by the great play of Matthews. Who looked tired last night, especially as the game wore on, he lost his legs. But not his fault when he is doing everything. Post game Babcock said "that line is always good....well Matthews and Hyman." He singles Nylander out, and as he should. While everyone was complaining about Marner, many didnt see how bad Nylander was playing. His passes intercepted, his shots blocked, Hyman way out chanced him, that shouldnt be happening. Yet everyone crucifies Hyman, why? He plays hard every night, is one of our best penalty killers. So he lacks a bit of finish, but when you compare his skill to Nylander's, and Nylander has but 3 more points than Hyman, you have to scratch your head.

I think Babcock has tried all he can to get our guys playing, the line juggling is something you normally do not see from him. Never happened last year, didnt have to. But to the degree he has this year, it shows what he thinks of our guys play. Also when a coach tries it all and nothing works, you absolutely have to get external help. Many have said will one player change it all? No probably not. But you have to do something. Not to mention at some point you have to cash in on your prospects. I am not saying blow up the Marlies, but I am saying we have good pieces down there and on the Leafs to acquire one of 2 big needs, and that is RHD and center.

Bozak, JVR, Komarov, are UFA at the end of the year. While Carrick and Nylander are RFA. Now out of those 5 the only guaranteed guy that we have to sign is Nylander. I think Carrick is gone via trade (if not we let him walk). The other 3 it's a bit tougher to figure out. While JVR is having a tough start, he has looked a bit better lately and is a 25 to 30 goal man, not that simple to replace, but we are deep at the wing position (however key is to move forward not back). Then Bozak, an annual top 5-10 faceoff man in the league; however you can argue with Matthews getting better on the dot that Bozak in that sense is more expendable than in years past. Komarov one of the best on the PK, is not playing well at all besides that. It is like he is playing on the PK the whole game (with the style he is playing), one hand on the stick, swatting around, getting his stick in shooting lanes, but cant clear 5v5. Komarov and his leadership with the youth is well documented as well. But again the strength is the wing. So then who goes? Do we trade (let walk) a leader and great PK specialist? Do we trade the 25-30 goal-scorer? Or is it Bozak?

Centers are hard to come by. So that depends. Can we fit John Tavares under the cap, and still sign our big 3. I did the math about a month ago and we can but barely. But if we do that, you can kiss a goodbye any chance of Doughty coming here. Looking at it though, Tavares is a very good 2 way forward, and imagine that PP Matthews, Nylander, Tavares (wow). It would look great with Doughty as well. The question is who would take a small cut to play here (if even they would do so). Also a team will need to fill their need in a trade, so the best player we have is JVR, problem with him is the UFA status. I wonder if the leafs sign him to a friendly deal, then it makes him much more attractive to acquire via trade, he would then be locked up and the hit wouldnt hurt so bad.

My wish list, is a pipe-dream. I would love Manson, but do not see the Ducks trading him. Tavares again we can do it but it would be very tight, and take us out of taking a run at Doughty. Though I think easily Tavares is the cheaper option. I would say he would be asking for a long term deal in the range of 6-7million (makes 5.5 right now UFA at the end of the season). But Doughty is making 7 million this year and probably signs something close to 10million on a long term deal. As good as it would be to get a true #1 like him, if that is the kind of money we are looking at, I am not sure we offer that. Big contracts like that have messed us up in the past. While Doughty like guys do not grow on trees, I think the highest bidder, with the best chance at a cup wins him. Not sure that LA will pony up, they have a lot of big guys locked in already and only have 3.75million in room, that would be gone in signing Doughty and their only UFA is Cammalleri (of any value the other 2 make 850,000 and 650,000). In that sense it would therefore mean Doughty signing elsewhere is great as the Isles have 4 or 5 UFA's including Tavares, and the other make minimum 1.25million, and Halak makes 4.25, what I am saying is they have a ton of money coming off the books, so it is very possible they are able to sign John, question is; does he want to? A lot has been made of him and management, and ownership. The Isles arena issues, is a huge thing, and the real only advantages we have are; he is home grown guy (mississauga native) and any player with a brain can see the Leafs are close (talent wise) to contend.

Imagine a young John Tavares, grew up a Leaf fan, would he not want to hoist the cup wearing his favorite home team colors? Same goes for Doughty, it is just a fact of money.

Sorry this post was so long. I kept thinking of new ideas.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Leafs Home Board
Babcock could use some bigger, stronger and more defensively aware players.

Teams seem to have figured out how to contain the Leafs speed and exposed their lack of size and push back ability.

Numerous lines are getting trapped deep in their own zone for extended periods of time, and offensive effectiveness limited.
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
Nylander gets benched, Marner demoted, Bozak demoted (perhaps finally after trying different things with him)......but Komarov can play like hot garbage and be totally uninspired and ....nada.
Hyman and Martin too for that matter.
 
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White Shadow

Registered User
Jan 7, 2016
2,477
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Nylander gets benched, Marner demoted, Bozak demoted (perhaps finally after trying different things with him)......but Komarov can play like hot garbage and be totally uninspired and ....nada.
Hyman and Martin too for that matter.
Thats because the D zone coverage is mainly a result of being aware and putting in the effort, it's very coachable. Leo and Hyman rarely blow the coverage in their own end.
 

MapleLeafistan

Registered User
Oct 5, 2017
1,278
676
Victoria, BC
Never understand Leafs fans on this forum. The way some of you come to knee jerk conclusions is just mind numbing. How is the current state of the Leafs Babcock's fault? He can only coach with what he has...doesn't matter what tactics Babcock employs, the skill isn't there on the D for them to execute what he wants. Period.

Then some of you cry about why aren't the Leafs making trades. No GM is going to make a trade in the first week of November that I guarantee. And with whom exactly are the Leafs supposed to trade with. At least offer some proposals instead of crying like little babies. The Leafs will not go down this path because time and time again teams have been ripped off while in "desperate mode". At present time, the Leafs D is known league wide for being the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked. Do you really think the Leafs are going to win any trade mid-season for a D-man? It'll just me more agony for you folks.

The only solution will be to hope the D picks up as the season goes on or they call up pieces from the Marlies and they make an impact. Realistically, nothing drastic is going to change until the off season where they might make a move in the FA market but then again who's available.

In short, patience is a virtue.

Sometimes I wish last season the Leafs didn't make the playoffs...seems like you've all forgotten that they somewhat overachieved. This team is still 2-3 years away from being a proper contender and I didn't expect them to be playoff contenders last year or this year when Babcock first signed on.

Have patience and stop having panic attacks every time they go on a bad stretch.

My goodness...now I understand why the rest of HF is annoyed with Leafs fans here. Jesus H. Christ, talk about a whiny bunch.
 
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A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,489
17,496
Never understand Leafs fans on this forum. The way some of you come to knee jerk conclusions is just mind numbing. How is the current state of the Leafs Babcock's fault? He can only coach with what he has...doesn't matter what tactics Babcock employs, the skill isn't there on the D for them to execute what he wants. Period.

Then some of you cry about why aren't the Leafs making trades. No GM is going to make a trade in the first week of November that I guarantee. And with whom exactly are the Leafs supposed to trade with. At least offer some proposals instead of crying like little babies. The Leafs will not go down this path because time and time again teams have been ripped off while in "desperate mode". At present time, the Leafs D is known league wide for being the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked. Do you really think the Leafs are going to win any trade mid-season for a D-man? It'll just me more agony for you folks.

The only solution will be to hope the D picks up as the season goes on or they call up pieces from the Marlies and they make an impact. Realistically, nothing drastic is going to change until the off season where they might make a move in the FA market but then again who's available.

In short, patience is a virtue.

Sometimes I wish last season the Leafs didn't make the playoffs...seems like you've all forgotten that they somewhat overachieved. This team is still 2-3 years away from being a proper contender and I didn't expect them to be playoff contenders last year or this year when Babcock first signed on.

Have patience and stop having panic attacks every time they go on a bad stretch.

My goodness...now I understand why the rest of HF is annoyed with Leafs fans here. Jesus H. Christ, talk about a whiny bunch.

Pretty sure this is more about Babcock should be sharing as much of the blame as the rest of the team.

His hands are just as dirty.
 

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,489
17,496
It's not Babcock's fault that Jake Gardiner forgets how to play hockey...forget defence.

Since game 1 the Leafs have been piss poor defensively and worse than average the last two years. Babcock is paid to keep the team accountable defensively I would hope for 50m.

When does Babcock assume accountability for 50m? Or does he not share in the blame ever?
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
21,414
15,770
London, On
They started this way last year too but then got things together. I suspect they will again, but I still think they need some help on D.

Oh and regarding trades, they may not be as popular now, but they’ve happened and a big 3-way team trade just fell apart.
 

MapleLeafistan

Registered User
Oct 5, 2017
1,278
676
Victoria, BC
Give him 100m, you'd get the same results. No coach no matter what you pay them is going to make this D look or play better. The skill isn't there. Simple as that.
 

one77

Registered User
Dec 22, 2013
2,243
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Gardiner, JVR and Bozak need to go. That is for sure. For now, I think Babcock should really consider letting Nylander be the #2C with Marleau who could help him ease into it as well.

Hyman – Matthews – Marner
Marleau – Nylander – Brown
Komarov – Kadri – Kapanen
JVR – Bozak – Martin
 

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
Oct 17, 2010
27,489
17,496
Give him 100m, you'd get the same results. No coach no matter what you pay them is going to make this D look or play better. The skill isn't there. Simple as that.

BS. Leafs are as talented as any team in the NHL. That's a poor tank nation type excuse.
 

White Shadow

Registered User
Jan 7, 2016
2,477
598
Gardiner, JVR and Bozak need to go. That is for sure. For now, I think Babcock should really consider letting Nylander be the #2C with Marleau who could help him ease into it as well.

Hyman – Matthews – Marner
Marleau – Nylander – Brown
Komarov – Kadri – Kapanen
JVR – Bozak – Martin

You don't reward people when they haven't proven they can manage their current workload. Willie needs to play better in his own zone on the wing before he gets handed extra responsibilties that come with playing center.
 

rent free

Registered User
Apr 6, 2015
20,427
6,114
I'm gonna just pretend that the Leafs were dog tired. 3 games in 5 nights against 4 top tier teams...**** happens.

In the case of Willie, this is a contract year for him...this should motivate him to put up some numbers and some performances. If this doesn't motivate him, I don't know what will. This goes with Bozak and JVR. They are going to price themselves right out of the leagues if they keep playing like they have been.

Growing pains...
willie could sign a 1 yr deal to reach arbitration next season. who knows.
 

weems

Registered User
Jul 3, 2008
18,027
11,460
As much as there's things I dont currently like about the way the team is playing we still have to remember its been only 15 games (extremely small sample size).
Winnipeg has gone from starting terrible and Maurice should be fired to now their playing really well.

Vegas is on fire
NJD are on fire
Vancouver is playing well

I would bet anyone that those last 3 teams I mentioned will still not make the playoffs.

We havent played good team hockey from game 1. The only difference early on was that our offense was insane and we were outscoring our poor overall play.

This team needs to skate and work hard every night to play the style of game coach and management want. Once they stop moving their feet this team becomes insanely soft and easy to play against for really any opponent.

I expect we will start to see us play much better hockey this next 7 game segment (we need to do well here, 5 of 7 on home ice and a lineup of teams that isnt scary looking).
 

FreeBird

Registered User
Dec 18, 2005
7,782
190
As much as there's things I dont currently like about the way the team is playing we still have to remember its been only 15 games (extremely small sample size).
Winnipeg has gone from starting terrible and Maurice should be fired to now their playing really well.

Vegas is on fire
NJD are on fire
Vancouver is playing well

I would bet anyone that those last 3 teams I mentioned will still not make the playoffs.

We havent played good team hockey from game 1. The only difference early on was that our offense was insane and we were outscoring our poor overall play.

This team needs to skate and work hard every night to play the style of game coach and management want. Once they stop moving their feet this team becomes insanely soft and easy to play against for really any opponent.

I expect we will start to see us play much better hockey this next 7 game segment (we need to do well here, 5 of 7 on home ice and a lineup of teams that isnt scary looking).

One year rebuild is falling apart, Shanahan should have pulled back the reigns on Lou and Babs who reverted from the plan, when they started trading picks away after only one year into the plan. Nothing seems to change I've seen these rebuilds over and over the years they get a little success then try and hit a HR.
 

Due North

Registered User
Mar 16, 2010
130
8
I still think NJD will make the playoffs. As far as the Leafs, the only one set for a big payoff is
Mathews. The leafs will save big money on the other two.
 

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