News Article: AZCentral: Arizona Coyotes' Dave Tippett motivated to redeem Coyotes

SniperHF

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How many years is it going to take, before somebody starts holding him accountable?

His record over the last 3 seasons (212 games) is worse than Wayne Gretzky's, during his last 3 seasons with the Coyotes. Wayne Gretzky.


Really didn't need to hear that. Thanks.

I already joined team Fire Tippett but if someone had come up with this earlier I'd have joined way faster...

That is disgusting. Please tell me that isn't true.

Pts percentage:
TGO: 0.465447154
DT: 0.462264151

It might be a tad unfair to ball up the 3 years when you consider individually, Tip's 13/14 and Lockout '13 were both better than any of TGO's seasons. But then again both those seasons had a very high amount of OTL points. Probably why those years felt worse than the points number shows at a glance.

One thing I did like from that article though was they didn't drone on the useless talking point of "getting back to Coyotes hockey". It's been 3 years, time for the broadcast team to stop droning on about it.
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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How many years is it going to take, before somebody starts holding him accountable?

His record over the last 3 seasons (212 games) is worse than Wayne Gretzky's, during his last 3 seasons with the Coyotes. Wayne Gretzky.

Great point, except for Tip turned TGO's squad into a playoff team 3 years in a row, had a 107 point season and made the WCF. TGO got less with more, Tip got more with less. As for holding Tip accountable, what does that mean? Do you mean holding him to X number of points this year? What would the over under be? The Coyotes are predicted to be dead last in the west with no chance of making the playoffs. 62 points is the dead last average for full seasons the last 5 years, so that would be the bench mark, right? So, if the coyotes are not dead last or get say 65+ points, Tip would have over achieved with this group, right? If they are under 60 points, then Tip is the problem assuming no major injuries like last year. Just trying to set consensus expectations.

I think most of the hate for Tip is him not playing the younger guys. Tip controls minutes but DM controls the roster. You can blame DM for not enough youth on the roster, not Tip. If DM wanted to, he can put more youth on the roster. I am pretty sure based on comments that DM/Tip are on the same page in not rushing players.

If the coyotes have another sub 60 point season, Tip will quit or DM will have to fire him, but that is what it will take for Tip to be gone.
 

Kaibur

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Jan 23, 2009
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It's just a pity that this management/coaching team can't identify where they are in the rebuilding cycle and stick to a plan. They failed to do so last year and only landed Strome by a sequence of bad luck (Smith, injuries, bad signings). They're failing to do so again this year and it could wreck the franchise's chances of building a true Cup competitor. Instead of lying to the fanbase and/or having odd delusions of grandeur (mediocrity?), why not be honest that it's going to be a rebuilding year and the coaching staff will put in the work developing young players? There's no shame in that if you come out the other side with a Cup worthy squad. If they come out of the rebuild and only get one Western Conference Finals appearance (again) and nothing else to show for it, that's SHAMEFUL.
 

Kaibur

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Great point, except for Tip turned TGO's squad into a playoff team 3 years in a row, had a 107 point season and made the WCF. TGO got less with more, Tip got more with less. As for holding Tip accountable, what does that mean? Do you mean holding him to X number of points this year? What would the over under be? The Coyotes are predicted to be dead last in the west with no chance of making the playoffs. 62 points is the dead last average for full seasons the last 5 years, so that would be the bench mark, right? So, if the coyotes are not dead last or get say 65+ points, Tip would have over achieved with this group, right? If they are under 60 points, then Tip is the problem assuming no major injuries like last year. Just trying to set consensus expectations.

I think most of the hate for Tip is him not playing the younger guys. Tip controls minutes but DM controls the roster. You can blame DM for not enough youth on the roster, not Tip. If DM wanted to, he can put more youth on the roster. I am pretty sure based on comments that DM/Tip are on the same page in not rushing players.

If the coyotes have another sub 60 point season, Tip will quit or DM will have to fire him, but that is what it will take for Tip to be gone.

If they say "We expect to make the playoff" and they miss for the fourth year in a row, they missed expectations by their own verbiage. If they say "This is a rebuilding year" and they miss the playoffs but develop young players who hit reasonable TOI and points/production/analytics, Tipp's played his part in the long term plan of winning the Stanley Cup. Which is the point of being an NHL franchise.
 

CC96

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Nov 6, 2012
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Great point, except for Tip turned TGO's squad into a playoff team 3 years in a row, had a 107 point season and made the WCF. TGO got less with more, Tip got more with less. As for holding Tip accountable, what does that mean? Do you mean holding him to X number of points this year? What would the over under be? The Coyotes are predicted to be dead last in the west with no chance of making the playoffs. 62 points is the dead last average for full seasons the last 5 years, so that would be the bench mark, right? So, if the coyotes are not dead last or get say 65+ points, Tip would have over achieved with this group, right? If they are under 60 points, then Tip is the problem assuming no major injuries like last year. Just trying to set consensus expectations.

I think most of the hate for Tip is him not playing the younger guys. Tip controls minutes but DM controls the roster. You can blame DM for not enough youth on the roster, not Tip. If DM wanted to, he can put more youth on the roster. I am pretty sure based on comments that DM/Tip are on the same page in not rushing players.

How many years is Tip gonna get the benefit of the doubt, just because he had a decent season 6 years ago, and a really good season 4 years ago? (the '10-'11 season was average at best compared to most NHL franchises)

The problem with Tippett, is that even when there are younger guys available to him, he'll play old broken garbage like Matt Smaby, and David Schlemko, before throwing the kids in. Even when we're in last place. It's an absolutely unacceptable position to take, when the team is floundering on the ice, and desperately needs to rebuild.
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
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Great point, except for Tip turned TGO's squad into a playoff team 3 years in a row, had a 107 point season and made the WCF. TGO got less with more, Tip got more with less.

Well was it really TGOs squad though? I mean sure a lot of the key components were the same but there were some huge differences too.

Out:
Sauer (injury)
Morris (but he came back later)
Reinprecht
Hale
Fedoruk
Turris
Tikhonov
Boedker (14 GP)
Lisin
Klee
Failed Jokinen experiment

In:
Aucoin
Vrbata

Fiddler
Korpikoski
Pyatt
Vandermeer
Lang
Prucha (TDL from last season)
Lombardi (Same^)
Upshall (same^)

I love the 09/10 team, it's probably my favorite Coyotes squad. But look at the turnover.
Tip got the absolute most out of those guys brought in, more than Gretzky would have. But it wasn't exactly the same squad. I see scrubs and young guys who were dropped, and legit middle 6 players brought in.

I don't think there's any question Tip had better rosters than Gretzky. Especially when you consider that a lot of the "same" roster players between them were young, and improved as they aged even with the dubious development record around here.
 

CC96

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To add to your point, even without that turnover Phoenix had a somewhat respectable team in '08-'09.

Even Wayne-O the Clown had the team playing competitively that season, until around January/February, when the wheels fell the wagon from the relocation rumors becoming a circus sideshow.
 

BUX7PHX

Registered User
Jul 7, 2011
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It's just a pity that this management/coaching team can't identify where they are in the rebuilding cycle and stick to a plan. They failed to do so last year and only landed Strome by a sequence of bad luck (Smith, injuries, bad signings). They're failing to do so again this year and it could wreck the franchise's chances of building a true Cup competitor. Instead of lying to the fanbase and/or having odd delusions of grandeur (mediocrity?), why not be honest that it's going to be a rebuilding year and the coaching staff will put in the work developing young players? There's no shame in that if you come out the other side with a Cup worthy squad. If they come out of the rebuild and only get one Western Conference Finals appearance (again) and nothing else to show for it, that's SHAMEFUL.

Maybe there was a firm belief that last year, we had the makeup of being a team that could be in the top 8 of the West. We were a few points away from the previous year and we removed ourselves from what we considered a "cancer" in Ribeiro.

There was just a miscalculation of how much of a difference certain players made relative to the previous year. We are talking specifically Ribeiro and Vrbata to Gagner and Erat on the offensive side. Apparently Derek Morris was invaluable on the defensive end, too. On paper, we knew the deficiencies of Ribs and Morris, but players were not able to keep up with the positives that were brought. Not even close. Really, those three names (Ribs, Vrby, and DeMo) on the jerseys were the only changes.

I also think there was a little hubris on the thought of, "It's happened before, so it can happen again." Dave Tippett has brought a team of veterans to the playoffs before, so it can happen again. Mike Smith has backstopped us to games that we probably didn't deserve to win in 2012, so it can happen again. We have replaced veterans on one and two year deals seamlessly from 2009 to now, so it can happen again.

What is realistic for a season anyhow? Remember Colorado was always expected to make a jump in 2013-14, but did anyone expect the #2 seed in the West. What about when LA won the Cup as an #8 seed? What if we start out hot, and all 2-4 rookies are doing well and leading us to the top 8? Are we to consider ourselves "rebuilding" if the players are actually getting us in contention and we have them together for the next 3-8 years?

I am totally fine with going into each season stating that we expect to make the playoffs. Why? B/c it is more about setting a goal that is clear. If Tip and Co. said, "Well, we kind of expect to rebuild this year...", would you be excited as a player to go to the ice and not know if you are playing b/c management wants to see a player for the rebuild in your spot? What about as a fan? I feel like we'd be watching TGO's lineups from the end of the 08-09 season, when Nigel Dawes played on the de facto 1st line, 2nd line, and 3rd line (all with different players) in three different games...
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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How many years is Tip gonna get the benefit of the doubt, just because he had a decent season 6 years ago, and a really good season 4 years ago? (the '10-'11 season was average at best compared to most NHL franchises)

The problem with Tippett, is that even when there are younger guys available to him, he'll play old broken garbage like Matt Smaby, and David Schlemko, before throwing the kids in. Even when we're in last place. It's an absolutely unacceptable position to take, when the team is floundering on the ice, and desperately needs to rebuild.

1. As soon as he under achieves he should be fired. He has not yet. Everyone complains about our lack of talent and how bad Smith is, and at the same time expects Tip to be Houdini.

2. DM controls the roster and can force Tip's hand, that simple.
 

KG

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Sep 23, 2010
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It's not black and white.

Tippet hasn't been perfect. His track record shows he prefers veterans. At the same time I think he has done well with what he has.

I don't think he should be fired yet. But this ought to be his last season. Missing the playoffs for 4 years alone shows a new voice would be needed.
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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If they say "We expect to make the playoff" and they miss for the fourth year in a row, they missed expectations by their own verbiage. If they say "This is a rebuilding year" and they miss the playoffs but develop young players who hit reasonable TOI and points/production/analytics, Tipp's played his part in the long term plan of winning the Stanley Cup. Which is the point of being an NHL franchise.

Every team says they expect to make the playoffs. What else are they going to say? We don't expect to make the playoffs and are going to play young guys, not win many games, and sell vets at the TDL? That would be a good way to tell your fans to skip watching/buying tickets this year.

The world thinks the coyotes are dead last in the west this year and most fans of the team think they will be last or close to last. There are disagreements on who will be first in the west, who will make and miss the playoffs, but a consensus on last place, at least on HFBOARDS. If this team makes the playoffs or is even in contention at the TDL, Tip will be coach of the year or Smith will be in the Vezina conversation.

After last years disaster and Tip's comments in a recent article, we are going to find out this year if Tip can turn it around. I think he is part of the solution, not part of the problem, but if we are under 60 points again, I can see him being let go or quitting.
 

Jakey53

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It's not black and white.

Tippet hasn't been perfect. His track record shows he prefers veterans. At the same time I think he has done well with what he has.

I don't think he should be fired yet. But this ought to be his last season. Missing the playoffs for 4 years alone shows a new voice would be needed.

Coaches are hired to be fired, and DT's time will come, but to expect a playoff birth this year I think is crazy thinking. Again, if you don't have the talent, you will not win, it is that simple. The coach is always the fall guy. Let's not forget how bad off this team was with NHL ownership. That has set up back years by not having good and enough scouts to cover all the players overseas, development coaches etc. I think DM has done a fabulous job hiring good people the last couple of years. Look at the prospects at camp, and you can see the progress.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Every team says they expect to make the playoffs. What else are they going to say? We don't expect to make the playoffs and are going to play young guys, not win many games, and sell vets at the TDL? That would be a good way to tell your fans to skip watching/buying tickets this year.

The world thinks the coyotes are dead last in the west this year and most fans of the team think they will be last or close to last. There are disagreements on who will be first in the west, who will make and miss the playoffs, but a consensus on last place, at least on HFBOARDS. If this team makes the playoffs or is even in contention at the TDL, Tip will be coach of the year or Smith will be in the Vezina conversation.

After last years disaster and Tip's comments in a recent article, we are going to find out this year if Tip can turn it around. I think he is part of the solution, not part of the problem, but if we are under 60 points again, I can see him being let go or quitting.

I agree, but DT will not quit, he has a contract. It's not always about points and wins with a rebuilding team, but rather improvement as the year goes on. Look at Colorado the last two years. They are rebuilding and had a bump in the road last year, and I don't think many wanted Roy or Sakic fired.
 

Kaibur

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Jan 23, 2009
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Every team says they expect to make the playoffs. What else are they going to say? We don't expect to make the playoffs and are going to play young guys, not win many games, and sell vets at the TDL? That would be a good way to tell your fans to skip watching/buying tickets this year.

The world thinks the coyotes are dead last in the west this year and most fans of the team think they will be last or close to last. There are disagreements on who will be first in the west, who will make and miss the playoffs, but a consensus on last place, at least on HFBOARDS. If this team makes the playoffs or is even in contention at the TDL, Tip will be coach of the year or Smith will be in the Vezina conversation.

After last years disaster and Tip's comments in a recent article, we are going to find out this year if Tip can turn it around. I think he is part of the solution, not part of the problem, but if we are under 60 points again, I can see him being let go or quitting.

Take a look at Buffalo last year. They never said they expected to make the playoffs. They were honest with their fans, explained that this was the plan to bring the first Cup ever to Buffalo, and their fans understood. It was a painful year, but they came away with the consolation prize they desperately needed. They're a year ahead on the rebuild and I would argue they're much more likely to be Cup contenders than we are if we barely make the playoffs this season and are bounced in the first round. So you're wrong - not every team goes into every season claiming that the playoffs are the goal. Some teams actually have a long term vision for sustained success. Winning a Cup stabilizes a team for the long term.

Tippett doesn't get long term thinking. He thinks game-to-game, as the article explicitly states. And he's only won a handful of playoff rounds as a result - 5 playoff rounds won in 12 years of NHL head coaching to be exact. He's missed the playoffs 4 of 12 years and been bounced in the first round 5 of 12 years. If he's unwilling to think in the long term and homegrow some high end talent, particularly at forward, by taking the time to coach those that don't come in with a refined two-way game, he needs to move on and go to a team that already has the key pieces but is just missing a few supplemental vets. That's not us right now.

In 09-10 when he started with the club, we were coming out of the trough and into the crest. The rebuild was over after we'd drafted 5th, 17th, 8th, 3rd, 8th and 6th overall in successive drafts. The high end pieces acquired through the draft that are part of a proper rebuild were already in place when Tip came on board, which allowed them to climb to the height of 2 playoff wins at the peak of the crest by supplementing vets. That's not where we are today - we're still in the bottom of the trough, acquiring high picks for the next ridge. Management & the coaching staff should accept that, make a plan & stick to it, and prepare the fanbase for it by explaining their long term vision. Not by pretending that we're closer to contention than we really are to sling a couple extra season ticket packages to the more casual fans. That's not going to stabilize the franchise or bring us a Cup.
 

TheLegend

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Aug 30, 2009
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Expectations....

^^^^^^

When someone from a team says at the beginning of a season "our expectation is to make the playoffs".... people take it too damn literally.

You play to be successful.... and that's the impression you have to project. The playoffs are the goal.... unless you're Buffalo.

In Buffalo's case they had a different goal. They wanted to fail in order to win. May be great for getting a McDavid or Eichel but it doesn't guarantee them long term success (see Edmonton).
 

Sinurgy

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Take a look at Buffalo last year.
Phoenix market and Buffalo market have almost zero in common. Furthermore if Phoenix had received McEichel this would be an entirely different situation. Lastly we already got screwed by the draft lottery and that's when it was still relatively stacked in favor of the bottom teams. They're not going to make the playoffs this year but as long as Domi and Duclair receive a decent amount of ice time there's little reason not to at least try.
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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I agree, but DT will not quit, he has a contract. It's not always about points and wins with a rebuilding team, but rather improvement as the year goes on. Look at Colorado the last two years. They are rebuilding and had a bump in the road last year, and I don't think many wanted Roy or Sakic fired.

There was plenty of chirping about Roy last year and some with Sakic about Statsney/ROR. Last year might have been more than a bump, and if Colorado misses the playoffs this year, Roy could be gone.
 

Bonsai Tree

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Feb 2, 2014
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There is always chirping about coaches and GMs when a team does poorly. It's part of the job to ignore disgruntled fans talking crap about you. I could make a case for a replacement at GM, perhaps, perhaps not. I might be pleasantly surprised by the teams composition (Maloney) and play (Tippet).
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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Take a look at Buffalo last year. They never said they expected to make the playoffs. They were honest with their fans, explained that this was the plan to bring the first Cup ever to Buffalo, and their fans understood. It was a painful year, but they came away with the consolation prize they desperately needed. They're a year ahead on the rebuild and I would argue they're much more likely to be Cup contenders than we are if we barely make the playoffs this season and are bounced in the first round. So you're wrong - not every team goes into every season claiming that the playoffs are the goal. Some teams actually have a long term vision for sustained success. Winning a Cup stabilizes a team for the long term.

Tippett doesn't get long term thinking. He thinks game-to-game, as the article explicitly states. And he's only won a handful of playoff rounds as a result - 5 playoff rounds won in 12 years of NHL head coaching to be exact. He's missed the playoffs 4 of 12 years and been bounced in the first round 5 of 12 years. If he's unwilling to think in the long term and homegrow some high end talent, particularly at forward, by taking the time to coach those that don't come in with a refined two-way game, he needs to move on and go to a team that already has the key pieces but is just missing a few supplemental vets. That's not us right now.

In 09-10 when he started with the club, we were coming out of the trough and into the crest. The rebuild was over after we'd drafted 5th, 17th, 8th, 3rd, 8th and 6th overall in successive drafts. The high end pieces acquired through the draft that are part of a proper rebuild were already in place when Tip came on board, which allowed them to climb to the height of 2 playoff wins at the peak of the crest by supplementing vets. That's not where we are today - we're still in the bottom of the trough, acquiring high picks for the next ridge. Management & the coaching staff should accept that, make a plan & stick to it, and prepare the fanbase for it by explaining their long term vision. Not by pretending that we're closer to contention than we really are to sling a couple extra season ticket packages to the more casual fans. That's not going to stabilize the franchise or bring us a Cup.

Buffalo doesn't have to say anything, they will still draw and aren't in a precarious situation/potentially moving.

Name a team this year that says making the playoffs is not their goal?
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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There was plenty of chirping about Roy last year and some with Sakic about Statsney/ROR. Last year might have been more than a bump, and if Colorado misses the playoffs this year, Roy could be gone.

I'd be willing to bet you on this one.
 

Canis Latrans

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Jan 19, 2015
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Take a look at Buffalo last year.....

Tippett doesn't get long term thinking.....
Addressing two points you made.

Buffalo can afford making public statements like that; they have an immensely rich, local owner whose goal is to win with his team rather than own the team as an investment or to be in a select group of professional sports team owners. They also have a well-established fanbase that can still fill the arena even if a 10% of the fanbase are more fairweather and stay away during a down year. There's probably real truth to the matter that if the Coyotes can't increase attendance, they're off to another city, so it's a fine balance between sacrificing some future potential now to make it look like they aren't going to be bottom-feeders this season so that they can actually have that future potential play in Arizona in another few seasons.

Maloney shapes the long-term outlook of the team far more than Tippett ever can, and I think recent history with the team demonstrating issues with players developing from their draft potential reflects more on Maloney's inability to staff the right people, or people at all in some cases, in the development and scouting areas.

Look at our last couple drafts and the consensus is that the Coyotes have done very well. This may be attributed to such things as the scouting budget increasing and allowing for expanding from, I think, 1 scout for the entire continent of Europe, so either we've gotten lucky (as it's only a sample size of 2), or Maloney is demonstrating again how he's one of the best at his position if he's given the same resources.

I feel it's unfair to lob so much criticism at Tippett for not developing young players as well. It's probably more endemic to the entire development system of the organization, but there's hope! If the organization invested in that area as well and as much as they did with the scouting a couple seasons or so ago (whenever they actually got that influx of cash for investing in infrastructure), then it could be that our prospects are given what's needed to actual reach their potential now. It's only been a couple seasons, so the results of this might not start really showing through until later when we can see that players who can't make that jump straight from juniors to the NHL are successfully traversing through the AHL and onto the full-time roster. Besides, we've also assigned Regier to GM Springfield and hired a new head coach and assistants, so hopefully that points to the whole system being in alignment as to how to bring up prospects properly.

Anyway, I think the organization has been so thin outside of Tippett and Maloney, that placing so much blame on them is misguided. Tippett can't be expected to develop players to that degree when they're brought up to the NHL level; that's something the organization's development level needs to be capable of, and until recently, it probably hasn't been able to do, though it's likely too soon to tell yet.
 

Jamieh

Registered User
Apr 25, 2012
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Where did most fans predict Vancouver, Calgary, LA, and SJ would finish last year? I highly doubt it was anywhere near the position that they finished in. I think the Coyotes can compete with most teams on any given night as it's not only paper skill that determines the winner of most games. I'm not saying they won't finish last but I think they can do much better.
Expectations are high in Colorado, I'll bet Roy is gone if they miss the playoffs, you are on for a drink.

I know there are some homers in these votes, but check out the consensus last place team in this poll of the Pacific:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1954593

Every fan, bar none, thinks the Coyotes are going to be in last place.
 

AZviaNJ

“Sure as shit want to F*** Coyote fans.”
Mar 31, 2011
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2 more years on Tipp's contract after this season. If the team shows improvement (not necessarily the playoffs) he'll be back next year.
 

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