Confirmed with Link: Avs trade Downie for Max Talbot

[Punished ROR]

Well that came from the report that Dater talked to Sakic. Sakic's not an "insider" and he's not good at spinning things or being careful with his words. If that was indeed said, or the idea that was implied, than it's most likely what it sounds like.

Sakic works for the Avalanche organization, right? Therefore, he is an insider. Further, he is one of the main pillars of the franchise and has a vested interest in how the organization appears and functions. Running around and giving gossipy quotes to reporters probably isn't the direction the Avs want to go (wisely), even if they are trying to be more open with the fans. They still have a business to run and they still have to be professionals.

Again, I'm not saying Friedman is right -- I simply don't know. I'm taking in all the reports and rumors and adding in my own personal take on Downie's on-ice play and coachability to form my own opinion. Certainly the point someone raised earlier, about none of the Avs' regular Tweeters wished Downie well post-trade might raise some eyebrows, yes?

All I'm saying -- you shouldn't take any one report for it's face value, whether we're talking sports journalism or real world news. Be vigilant, question everything you read, keep an open mind.

 

[Foppa2118]

Sakic works for the Avalanche organization, right? Therefore, he is an insider. Further, he is one of the main pillars of the franchise and has a vested interest in how the organization appears and functions. Running around and giving gossipy quotes to reporters probably isn't the direction the Avs want to go (wisely), even if they are trying to be more open with the fans. They still have a business to run and they still have to be professionals.

Again, I'm not saying Friedman is right -- I simply don't know. I'm taking in all the reports and rumors and adding in my own personal take on Downie's on-ice play and coachability to form my own opinion. Certainly the point someone raised earlier, about none of the Avs' regular Tweeters wished Downie well post-trade might raise some eyebrows, yes?

All I'm saying -- you shouldn't take any one report for it's face value, whether we're talking sports journalism or real world news. Be vigilant, question everything you read, keep an open mind.

The characterization of the Executive Vice President and the man with the most say in hockey related decisions as an "insider" is a little silly. Insider refers to someone within the organization that would provide info to reporters, sometimes to spin things as you say. This is not something the Executive Vice President would waste his time doing, let alone Joe Sakic who doesn't spend any time choosing his words carefully, sometimes to his detriment.

As for what was said, I do question every report, and things that I read. I wasn't saying it was true, I was saying it's an interesting possibility, and if Sakic indeed said it, it makes it pretty likely that's how they felt.

 

[5280]

It just adds more to the point the Friedman is speculating... it doesn't fit his story well if the correct order is used.

Yeah, makes you wonder.

 

[Punished ROR]

The characterization of the Executive Vice President and the man with the most say in hockey related decisions as an "insider" is a little silly. Insider refers to someone within the organization that would provide info to reporters, sometimes to spin things as you say.

Sakic is an insider because he is inside the Avalanche organization. Any information he gives anyone is therefore "insider information," whether it's accurate information, misinformation, or disinformation. You're making it sound like there's some kind of negative implication to "insider information." There isn't, and I wasn't implying that there was. Sakic has a job to do and so does Dater. Everyone has their interests to protect.

I'm not saying Sakic is in a secret society and drinks baby blood in Satanic rituals before games, I'm saying ... don't expect to get the juicy info from Sakic. You didn't get it when he was a player, and you're certainly not going to get it now that he's Exec VP. You're going to get the safe answer.

This is not something the Executive Vice President would waste his time doing, let alone Joe Sakic who doesn't spend any time choosing his words carefully, sometimes to his detriment.

RE: "Wasting time." Suppose the incident actually was over the Downie/Landeskog drama. If Sakic gave a dramabomb to Dater and got into the nitty-gritty details, and started a he-said she-said in the media ... in my opinion, that would be wasting time and cause a distraction for the team. Do you agree on this point?

Or, do you think that because Sakic was a good hockey player, he'll always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God?

This is what I was talking about when I said we need to exercise caution when evaluating our information sources, BTW. I honestly don't care what you or anyone else thinks about why Downie was traded -- and I don't mean that with any disrespect, I'm just trying to clearly outline the boundaries of this discussion. Please realize that everyone has interests to protect in their professional lives, this is not a slight against Joe Sakic or you, it's just the way things are.

 

[AMDZen]

That's an interesting new wrinkle I don't think I've seen anyone suggest. Downie might not have WANTED to re-sign here. There could be some truth to that. Preferring to go back east and get a big payday at the same time. Maybe even back to Philly, or perhaps TB with his buddy Stamkos.

Definitely more believable than the Landy incident. Not sure why Friedman, as much as I respect him, thinks it's worth noting. I didn't get the impression from that interview his sources were that connected in this particular regard.

Actually this has been mentioned several times by several people

 

[Bubba Thudd]

Sakic works for the Avalanche organization, right? Therefore, he is an insider. Further, he is one of the main pillars of the franchise and has a vested interest in how the organization appears and functions. Running around and giving gossipy quotes to reporters probably isn't the direction the Avs want to go (wisely), even if they are trying to be more open with the fans. They still have a business to run and they still have to be professionals.

Again, I'm not saying Friedman is right -- I simply don't know. I'm taking in all the reports and rumors and adding in my own personal take on Downie's on-ice play and coachability to form my own opinion. Certainly the point someone raised earlier, about none of the Avs' regular Tweeters wished Downie well post-trade might raise some eyebrows, yes?

All I'm saying -- you shouldn't take any one report for it's face value, whether we're talking sports journalism or real world news. Be vigilant, question everything you read, keep an open mind.

I must have missed the earlier post about this, but I do find it intriguing.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I'm the one who brought it up about Sakic mentioning something to Dater. So if it's all pointless to bring it up then it's my fault for brining it here. I thought the comment was interesting so I posted it. Another poster thought it was interesting too. Nothing more. I am fully aware what Dater posts as a comment in a chat is next to meaningless. We have to take everything with a grain of salt. But considering Dater actually spoke to Sakic, something none of is ever going to do, I'm at least curious on what Dater reports Sakic said. it really makes no difference, Downie is gone. The difference in comment was Sakic implied Downie didn't want to stay. If that's true or not we'll never know.

I noticed that about twitter too but the players have been quiter in general and Downie didn't tweet much. They didn't send welcome Max tweets either. I don't think there is a big problem, I just think they are talking in person and focusing there.

 

[Punished ROR]

I'm the one who brought it up about Sakic mentioning something to Dater. So if it's all pointless to bring it up then it's my fault for brining it here. I thought the comment was interesting so I posted it. Another poster thought it was interesting too. Nothing more. I am fully aware what Dater posts as a comment in a chat is next to meaningless. We have to take everything with a grain of salt. But considering Dater actually spoke to Sakic, something none of is ever going to do, I'm at least curious on what Dater reports Sakic said. it really makes no difference, Downie is gone. The difference in comment was Sakic implied Downie didn't want to stay. If that's true or not we'll never know.

I noticed that about twitter too but the players have been quiter in general and Downie didn't tweet much. They didn't send welcome Max tweets either. I don't think there is a big problem, I just think they are talking in person and focusing there.

Argh! No, it wasn't pointless to bring it up. You brought relevant information to the discussion! I'd never harangue anybody for doing that.

All I simply said was: "he wasn't going to re-sign here" could just as well be a polite way of saying "we weren't going to offer him a contract," based on any number of potential issues that would lead to someone not being brought back with the team.

I'm hesitant to believe that the main issue that led to Steve Downie being traded was that he simply wasn't going to re-sign here. To put it another way, we're supposed to believe that around game #10 -- so close to the trade deadline -- the Avs completely gave up on negotiations with Steve Downie and had to trade him immediately, for a decent but not exactly stellar return. Does that sound likely? Or does it sound like there are other factors involved that led to this trade?

If that is the simple truth, then we must ask the question -- why is Steve Downie so adamantly against re-signing with the hottest team in the NHL, that it was clear he wasn't going to re-sign here? Might that entail some kind of other issue? Is that not a possibility worth exploring?

There were really only 2 points I was trying to impart here on people:

1) There were probably many related factors leading to Downie's trade, not just a single magical explanation (whether it is a fight with the captain or contract dispute or anything else).
2) Just because Sakic said something doesn't necessarily make it so, nor does what he say grant us the total picture.

In other words -- don't play favorites with the acceptable rumors and dismiss the ones you don't like. Rather take all the information you hear and use it to build your own consensus. Consider the professional role of VP, beat reporter, CBC reporter, etc., when making an informed decision. FWIW, I think most people here are doing that already. I was just chipping in my perspective in case it might help someone.

I was not / am not trying to start an argument with anyone, but I'm having a hard time getting through to people, so from here I'll just bow out.

 

[Foppa2118]

Actually this has been mentioned several times by several people

Must have missed it. I've obviously seen people suggest he might not be back here as a UFA, but not that he didn't want to come back.

 

[Lemieux22]

Bottom line it was fun having Downie on the team and I wish we could've gotten a mid round pick thrown in, but at the end of the day he wasn't going to fit into the salary structure. If trading Downie means we can keep Stastny and McGinn next year then this trade will be a huge win.

 

[Foppa2118]

Sakic is an insider because he is inside the Avalanche organization. Any information he gives anyone is therefore "insider information," whether it's accurate information, misinformation, or disinformation. You're making it sound like there's some kind of negative implication to "insider information." There isn't, and I wasn't implying that there was. Sakic has a job to do and so does Dater. Everyone has their interests to protect.

I don't think you characterize someone who's the head honcho on a team as an "insider." Would you ever hear Ken Holland or Glenn Slather called an insider? Sure they're "inside" the organization, but that's not how that terms usually used. To each their own though, we're getting into a bit of semantics.

I'm not saying Sakic is in a secret society and drinks baby blood in Satanic rituals before games, I'm saying ... don't expect to get the juicy info from Sakic. You didn't get it when he was a player, and you're certainly not going to get it now that he's Exec VP. You're going to get the safe answer.

I think we've gotten plenty of juicy info from day one about what the organization wants to do, and Joe was the first one to come out and say they we're going to pick Seth Jones, and to outline the forwards they had above him. That's not a safe comment at all.

RE: "Wasting time." Suppose the incident actually was over the Downie/Landeskog drama. If Sakic gave a dramabomb to Dater and got into the nitty-gritty details, and started a he-said she-said in the media ... in my opinion, that would be wasting time and cause a distraction for the team. Do you agree on this point?

Sure, but the fact that he wouldn't waste his time doing one thing, doesn't mean he'd waste his time doing something else.

Or, do you think that because Sakic was a good hockey player, he'll always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him God? ;

No, I think he should be trusted at his word, because he and Patrick have put an emphasis on this, and have been very open and honest since day 1. Sakic has also shown that he's not very good at cleverly choosing his words to disguise the truth. If you've watched the interviews he's done since getting hired, he spends 0 time doing this. Sometimes in cases where he probably should.

If he said they thought he might not re-sign, then I'll believe it's way more likely he's telling the truth, rather than he's trying to "spin" the story as you put it. I don't see Sakic giving two craps about trying to spin a story.

This is what I was talking about when I said we need to exercise caution when evaluating our information sources, BTW. I honestly don't care what you or anyone else thinks about why Downie was traded -- and I don't mean that with any disrespect, I'm just trying to clearly outline the boundaries of this discussion. Please realize that everyone has interests to protect in their professional lives, this is not a slight against Joe Sakic or you, it's just the way things are.

Ok. I don't know why you're so skeptical in this particular case, but that's fine.

 

[Nalens Oga]

I like Talbot but it sounds like Holmgren REALLY wanted Downie. I hope that Sakic and co take their assets a bit more seriously than this in the future and don't just trade a player because he's not part of the future and some other GM is pestering them about him.

I would've asked Holmgren for Read back. Of course we might not have gotten Read but they would've had to part with a draft pick or something of consequence rather than Talbot. I mean the Leafs just signed Jarred Smithson and he's a similar player in terms of role to Talbot minus the veteran/cup part. I just wish that there was a bigger return and part of me is hoping that there's an IOU for us in this deal and the Flyers will give a little something extra in a future trade though Holmgren might not be there by then.

 

[PAZ]

I like Talbot but it sounds like Holmgren REALLY wanted Downie. I hope that Sakic and co take their assets a bit more seriously than this in the future and don't just trade a player because he's not part of the future and some other GM is pestering them about him.

I would've asked Holmgren for Read back. Of course we might not have gotten Read but they would've had to part with a draft pick or something of consequence rather than Talbot. I mean the Leafs just signed Jarred Smithson and he's a similar player in terms of role to Talbot minus the veteran/cup part. I just wish that there was a bigger return and part of me is hoping that there's an IOU for us in this deal and the Flyers will give a little something extra in a future trade though Holmgren might not be there by then.

Read would've been perfect. However, I doubt we would've gotten him, Read is the one bright spot on the Flyers this season. It would've been someone like Hartnell.

I really wish we got something better for Downie. Injuries inevitably happen, and when they do happen we have no one that can fill into the top 9 for an extended period of time.

 

[Nalens Oga]

Read would've been perfect. However, I doubt we would've gotten him, Read is the one bright spot on the Flyers this season. It would've been someone like Hartnell.

I really wish we got something better for Downie. Injuries inevitably happen, and when they do happen we have no one that can fill into the top 9 for an extended period of time.

Well yeah Read obviously by himself wasn't gonna happen but you have to ask for that and then meet the middle ground. Read would've been the most we could've asked for and Talbot being the minimum return. Should've came out of it with Talbot + 3rd or Talbot + Tye McGinn (who seems like a decent 3rd liner who can score). Instead we got the minimum return, poor negotiation and that's why I'm hoping there's more to this trade that it will even itself out in the future via 'future considerations/agreement.'

 

[ORLY]

We got fleeced

 

[Avs_19]

We got fleeced

Way too early to say that.

 

[The Merchant]

We got fleeced

Certainly can't argue that Talbot has been a non-factor thus far...

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

And Downie's been lighting it up for the Flyers?

 

[forsbergavs32]

Talbot hasn't been a big factor, but we should give him a break...its only his 3rd game and he needs time to learn the system.

 

[Foppa2118]

Talbot hasn't been a big factor, but we should give him a break...its only his 3rd game and he needs time to learn the system.

I'm not necessarily worried about Talbot, but if there's one thing that's a bit concerning is his skating. To play Roy's man on man system, and quick transition game, you have to always be moving your feet. Hopefully it's more a case of Talbot not used to moving his feet this much, as opposed to him not being able to. As it is, he's probably the weakest in this particularly area, and that includes Bordy and Cliche.

 

[ORLY]

And Downie's been lighting it up for the Flyers?

Nope, but he's a better fit for our team.

You can't expect anything out of Talbot for offense...our 3rd line is a scoring line, I mean it HAS to be with MacK as C.

So...on the 4th line Talbot is fine. But if Talbot plays on the 3rd line...the line as a whole isn't good on offence or defence, put Downie in there instead and they actually do something. Downie also can play with guys above his level and not hold them back too much. Talbot can't.

I am taking what I know on Talbot from the Philly board, not just spouting.

 

[tigervixxxen]

So at least MacK WAS carrying a line, even if it was the third one. Some people wanted to make it out like he was useless and should go back to junior.

 

[JLo217]

So at least MacK WAS carrying a line, even if it was the third one. Some people wanted to make it out like he was useless and should go back to junior.

Mack hasn't looked great and like a liability when playing with Talbot and Mitchell. Didn't look much better tonight with Stastny and Landeskog....

With that said, Talbot hasn't looked good at all. I'd say our PK has been worst since he got here, and he even was a contributing factor to our first PP G against last game.

 

[zxcvnm]

I'd say our PK has been worst since he got here, and he even was a contributing factor to our first PP G against last game.

That's pretty impressive considering he was on the bench during it while O'Reilly and Cliche were the forwards on the ice.

 

[JLo217]

That's pretty impressive considering he was on the bench during it while O'Reilly and Cliche were the forwards on the ice.

Gotcha, Wasn't aware. Just saying the guy hasn't looked great and you can't deny we've allowed 3 PP goals the last 2 games.