Confirmed with Link: Avs re-sign Nuke to 8-year, $6.125M AAV deal

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Old tall tale that isn’t supported by evidence. Few cases of it happening, but not really the norm.
I feel like the "breakout" for some of these players is less about these guys needing time to mature, and more about teams having different expectations for them. When Neely got traded from the Canucks to the Bruins he went from a team that was playing him like a bottom-line goon, to a team that actually gave him some offensive opportunities.

The Islanders at the time that Bertuzzi was traded were a mess. They gave away some really, really good players because they had no patience.

For Nuke, I think it's that he didn't really have any pressure or expectations when he came to Colorado. He just so happened to end up on a team with guys that motivated him and helped to get him to the next level.
 
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To be fair, prime Lucic was incredible. Absolute monster.

Nichushkin’s really nothing like him though. Completely different players.

I get the Hossa comps from the completeness of Val’s game, but Nuke is way more Nash than Hossa imo.
Can you imagine a tandem of Nuke and Prime Lucic? That would be terrifying. Lucic was one of the most intimidating players of his era, that combined with Nuke's relentless puck pursuit would be a hell of a tandem to play against. Hell, they would probably make ERod or Newhook look like competent 2Cs
 

ANewHope

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I feel like the "breakout" for some of these players is less about these guys needing time to mature, and more about teams having different expectations for them. When Neely got traded from the Canucks to the Bruins he went from a team that was playing him like a bottom-line goon, to a team that actually gave him some offensive opportunities.

The Islanders at the time that Bertuzzi was traded were a mess. They gave away some really, really good players because they had no patience.

For Nuke, I think it's that he didn't really have any pressure or expectations when he came to Colorado. He just so happened to end up on a team with guys that motivated him and helped to get him to the next level.

It's really looking like opportunity for Nuke. Last year he got way more TOI, PP time etc. and produced. This year he's getting an extra minute of ice time so far and obviously has increased his production. I haven't checked in a few games but I think his offensive zone stats this season are waaaay higher than they've been in the past.

Impossible to know but makes you wonder if a 25 year old Nuke got 19/20 minutes a game in the top 6 with PP time if the "breakout" wouldn't have come sooner.
 

henchman21

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I feel like the "breakout" for some of these players is less about these guys needing time to mature, and more about teams having different expectations for them. When Neely got traded from the Canucks to the Bruins he went from a team that was playing him like a bottom-line goon, to a team that actually gave him some offensive opportunities.

The Islanders at the time that Bertuzzi was traded were a mess. They gave away some really, really good players because they had no patience.

For Nuke, I think it's that he didn't really have any pressure or expectations when he came to Colorado. He just so happened to end up on a team with guys that motivated him and helped to get him to the next level.
Yup… just needing a new start I think is a big thing. These players get the expectations placed on them they can dominate when they get to the league and it just takes a reset.
 

Avs_19

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To be fair, prime Lucic was incredible. Absolute monster.

Nichushkin’s really nothing like him though. Completely different players.

I get the Hossa comps from the completeness of Val’s game, but Nuke is way more Nash than Hossa imo.

The way he shields the puck and uses his reach is Nash-like but that's mostly all I see. Nash was one of the best pure goal scorers of his era, who wasn't exactly known for his defense. Neither one of those things are true with Nichushkin.
 

henchman21

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The way he shields the puck and uses his reach is Nash-like but that's mostly all I see. Nash was one of the best pure goal scorers of his era, who wasn't exactly known for his defense. Neither one of those things are true with Nichushkin.
Nash had breakaway speed that Nuke has never had. That lead to about 7-10 extra goals a year… when he was really going, he’d get 4/5 short handed a year just off that. Take those out you get a guy who is high 20s, low 30s goals.

Nash was also super underrated defensively. In todays game, he’d be highly valued there analytically.
 

Northern Avs Fan

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The way he shields the puck and uses his reach is Nash-like but that's mostly all I see. Nash was one of the best pure goal scorers of his era, who wasn't exactly known for his defense. Neither one of those things are true with Nichushkin.

I think Hossa was better than Nash on offence too.

Nash scored a lot, but wasn’t much of a playmaker. Ala Nuke. I don’t think Val is as good offensively as him, but stylistically I see a lot of similarities.

Regardless, nice that he’s taken a step in his game, where you can compare him to some really good players and it’s not a crazy stretch.
 

niwotsblessing

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Forget Hossa or Lucic. Dobber Hockey just compared him to...

1m6mFrx.png


The last couple of sentences are related to fantasy teams.
Fornicate **** ********, that criminal POS should have been thrown in jail for what he did to Steve Moore. A disgusting excuse for a human being, lower than the scum that forms at the bottom of a used grease barrel in a shitty fast-food joint.
 
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Nash had breakaway speed that Nuke has never had. That lead to about 7-10 extra goals a year… when he was really going, he’d get 4/5 short handed a year just off that. Take those out you get a guy who is high 20s, low 30s goals.

Nash was also super underrated defensively. In todays game, he’d be highly valued there analytically.
Nash’s hands are what really separates him from Nuke, he had that big body and puck protection, speed as you mentioned, but also some of the softest mitts in the league.
 

Chiarelli

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Fornicate **** ********, that criminal POS should have been thrown in jail for what he did to Steve Moore. A disgusting excuse for a human being, lower than the scum that forms at the bottom of a used grease barrel in a shitty fast-food joint.
People make mistakes. Two careers were ruined that evening and I’m sure if he could go back in time things would be a lot different. It’s an intense game with a lot of emotions. Unfortunate for sure but I do think Bert was remorseful and regretted it. He was never the same after
 

McMetal

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It easily could... more or less my point is that 8 years is a long time and we've seen plenty of contracts be good early, but terrible late. One or even 3 good years doesn't mean the whole contract is great.
I think the only thing that matters is the years that are going to be in our contention window. If he's this good for the next 3-4 years, who cares what it will look like at the end? That was the price to get him to sign. ALL of our forward core will be old and overpaid by then, not just Nuke. We'll be in for some nasty years no matter what, the afterglow of a championship (or maybe two) will be what makes it all worth it. I doubt Chicago fans would trade away their last three Cups for the sake of being competitive now.
 

niwotsblessing

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People make mistakes. Two careers were ruined that evening and I’m sure if he could go back in time things would be a lot different. It’s an intense game with a lot of emotions. Unfortunate for sure but I do think Bert was remorseful and regretted it. He was never the same after
He played for a number of years after that incident, and made a lot of money doing so. That lunatic should never have played another game of professional hockey anywhere in the world, and certainly not in the NHL. It was assault, not a hockey play.
 

henchman21

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I think the only thing that matters is the years that are going to be in our contention window. If he's this good for the next 3-4 years, who cares what it will look like at the end? That was the price to get him to sign. ALL of our forward core will be old and overpaid by then, not just Nuke. We'll be in for some nasty years no matter what, the afterglow of a championship (or maybe two) will be what makes it all worth it. I doubt Chicago fans would trade away their last three Cups for the sake of being competitive now.

Oh yeah I totally agree. I really don't care what things look like that far down the road. The next 3 years are the most critical. Sucks that they are cap issues in the midst that make it more difficult, but you have to deal with those so the core doesn't age out.

When I see comments about contending 5-6-7+ years from now, I just have a major pause. Not only will the Avs have a number of meh to bad contracts, they'll have an older team which historically doesn't win Cups.
 

Ceremony

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Nichushkin will age well. Landeskog will age well if his knees hold up. Rantanen will age well. MacKinnon will not age well.
 

AvsInRhodey

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Have you watched Tampa this year? :laugh:

The rule of majority of core fits with Tampa and Washington. If the majority is 30 or over, you don't win. IIRC Caps had 3 guys 30 or older (and Ovi was 32), they fell on their face. Tampa had Killorn, Stammer, McD, and Hedman right around the 30, but had the other core under. They are also falling on their face this year and look real bad.

I've said you get to 30, maybe 31... beyond that trouble lurks. MacK, Nuke, and Lehk are all 27. Toews is 28. Rants is 26 in a few days. Landy is already on the verge. That really adds up to 4 years at most just purely on age. 3 years is entirely in the likely realm.

I would say the cup window is 5 years (including this one), but I acknowledge that the last few years of that window we are starting to fade into a top 5ish team as opposed to the betting favorite. In my mind, that's still within respectable striking distance and most of our core has shown they can rise to the occasion in the post-season so that helps quite a bit. Much of our competitive edge at the end of the window will be riding on how well Mack holds up in his age 31 season (the last season of my 5 year prediction). He takes phenomenal care of himself so has a good chance to still be a top 10-15 player in the league with the ability to elevate his game in the playoffs.

For me, that 5 year mark is based on a combination of looking at our cores aging curves, which will be a gradual and uncertain process, as well as the impacts of pending contract milestones, which are much more predictable. For now, let's assume the core ages reasonably well and no one has completely fallen off a cliff towards the end of this 5 year prediction (fingers crossed on Landy). Regardless of that assumption, the party ends with a crash in the summer of '27.

Cale's raise will be more then we can bear. And we pay for it happily as tribute to the man who helped us raise many new banners in his prime. It's the same year that Byram and Newhook will hit their UFA status so any bridge discounts are but a fond memory. Same year that Sammy G and Lehks are due raises (if they're still with us). Possibly the same year that Olausson and/or Behrens are coming off their entry level deals and ready to negotiate for some real money. That's too many contract milestones to contend with at one time and the roster sacrifices will not be pretty. It's all good. Just the business end of the sport eventually catching up with us. I for one hope they push ALL the chips in for these next 5 years and make these cup runs count while we still can.
 
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henchman21

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I would say the cup window is 5 years (including this one), but I acknowledge that the last few years of that window we are starting to fade into a top 5ish team as opposed to the betting favorite. In my mind, that's still within respectable striking distance and most of our core has shown they can rise to the occasion in the post-season so that helps quite a bit. Much of our competitive edge at the end of the window will be riding on how well Mack holds up in his age 31 season (the last season of my 5 year prediction). He takes phenomenal care of himself so has a good chance to still be a top 10-15 player in the league with the ability to elevate his game in the playoffs.

For me, that 5 year mark is based on a combination of looking at our cores aging curves, which will be a gradual and uncertain process, as well as the impacts of pending contract milestones, which are much more predictable. For now, let's assume the core ages reasonably well and no one has completely fallen off a cliff towards the end of this 5 year prediction (fingers crossed on Landy). Regardless of that assumption, the party ends with a crash in the summer of '27.

Cale's raise will be more then we can bear. And we pay for it happily as tribute to the man who helped us raise many new banners in his prime. It's the same year that Byram and Newhook will hit their UFA status so any bridge discounts are but a fond memory. Same year that Sammy G and Lehks are due raises (if they're still with us). Possibly the same year that Olausson and/or Behrens are coming off their entry level deals and ready to negotiate for some real money. That's too many contract milestones to contend with at one time and the roster sacrifices will not be pretty. It's all good. Just the business end of the sport eventually catching up with us. I for one hope they push ALL the chips in for these next 5 years and make these cup runs count while we still can.

I think 5 years is a bit much really. All of the forward core will be 30+ and the defensemen will be to the end of the primes. We just don't see those ages of players all win the Cup. I know it really doesn't seem like a big deal but the drop offs that happen from 27-30 are pretty large and after 30 it gets more extreme. Even if MacK stays elite, you have others who likely won't keep up their play. On top of that you have the MacK, Rants, Byram, Toews, and potential whatever goalie is around raises.

To me, this year is the last year where Avs can find themselves near the very top of the contending list. Next year, the sacrifices will be a bit more (Byram and bonues will be expensive), but still a solid base to trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Year 3 is the last hurrah of Rants under 12m (and if things go well, George under 6). Conceivably in year 4 you have 72-76m tied up in 8 players (that's not re-signing Toews and keeping G for his contract) without a starting goalie... 5 of those players bing 30+. Another year on that, to me, just creates more headache alongside age being a large factor.
 

JH21

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Not after this start for sure.

Honestly I was expecting him to regress this year. He had 25(?) goals and 52 points in 62 games last year. Basically a 70 point pace over a full 82 games. I was expecting him to come in more in the range of 25 Goals and 55 points again, but over a full 82 game season rather then just 62 games.

But with this start, 6 Goals and 11 points in 6 games. He would only need 59 more points in 76 games to hit 70 for the season.

Definitely think a 30G and 70 point season is on the table for him and quite frankly maybe even higher. You can just see the confidence in his game right now, starting to really understand his game and what he's capable of doing.

Agreed. I think he knows physically there aren't many Dmen who can stop him or move him from the front of the net. He's relentless.
 

AvsInRhodey

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I think 5 years is a bit much really. All of the forward core will be 30+ and the defensemen will be to the end of the primes. We just don't see those ages of players all win the Cup. I know it really doesn't seem like a big deal but the drop offs that happen from 27-30 are pretty large and after 30 it gets more extreme. Even if MacK stays elite, you have others who likely won't keep up their play. On top of that you have the MacK, Rants, Byram, Toews, and potential whatever goalie is around raises.

To me, this year is the last year where Avs can find themselves near the very top of the contending list. Next year, the sacrifices will be a bit more (Byram and bonues will be expensive), but still a solid base to trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Year 3 is the last hurrah of Rants under 12m (and if things go well, George under 6). Conceivably in year 4 you have 72-76m tied up in 8 players (that's not re-signing Toews and keeping G for his contract) without a starting goalie... 5 of those players bing 30+. Another year on that, to me, just creates more headache alongside age being a large factor.
I see your points and appreciate the dialog. I'm hopeful about that 5th year. But with a realistic lens I think.

I agree with you that this year is clearly our best shot to win again. With that in mind, I hope C-mac shows his mettle and is super aggressive at the deadline.

Next season, we all know what's coming and it's going to result in big drop in depth to start the year. The whole question of whether the cap is rising 1M or 4M will probably be the deciding factor on whether we can hang on to a "kinda core" player like Sammy G. But any way you cut it we will be thinning out our already thin depth.

The necessary counter action to this is that we continue to be aggressive at the deadline on an annual basis. Unless we find someone willing to part with a young, cost controlled 2C for a king's ransom (that we would have the assets to pay?), then we take the approach of patching and re-patching our secondary scoring or 3rd D pairing at the deadline year after year with maximum retention on all contracts received. This will cost us practically all our draft capital for the next 5-6 years, but it's the best way to squeeze value out of this core's remaining competitive years. And to be honest, with the way we draft, I don't see any pick we select in the near term making an impact at the NHL level before the end of this 5 year window. Might as well just own it and push all the chips in. This deadline-or-bust strategy is supplemented in the offseason by peppering in cheap UFA vets willing to take a discount to chase a cup, and other middle-age players willing to bet on themselves with 1 year deals to get a stats boost (such as E-rod).

I think we keep Toews at 7.5-8Mx8 (he'll be 38 by the end but who the hell cares) and Rants at 12-12.5Mx8. The cap increases should come quick enough to cover those raises. Plus, we probably dump Manson in one of those years, which may costs us a pick in the process but someone will overvalue him so won't be impossible. This gives us the flexibility to keep our insanely talented and insanely expensive core while plugging in C-level depth. We probably start every season for the next 4 years feeling like this one, where we don't like the depth at the start of the year, but everyone knows the deadline is where we buy it back. And we should be ready to swallow the fact that most deadline adds moving forward will be pure rentals. This gives us the best bang for our cap space and keeps the rest of the core intact.

As for goalies, I predict George does well, prices himself out, and we go back to the well by trading for someone' else's up-and-coming backup. It's the Avs way. And I bet it works out reasonably well. Too much unpredictability with goalies to make a firm forecast on that other than the idea that we keep it cheap and somewhat unproven.

By the 5th year (26-27 season) it will feel like we are coasting on fumes, but despite their age I think we still have a core where it makes sense to go for one more big splash at the deadline. Maybe by that 5th year our chances feel closer to "lightning in a bottle" as you put it, but my prediction is we are still in the mix as a top 5 playoff team. To me, that is still realistic striking distance and better than today's Penguins or Washington.

After the dreaded summer of '27, we lose a core player or two (or three) and are now on the outside looking in as far as contender status. Maybe we use the word "re-tool" etc. but we are now ready to keep our high draft picks again. In my mind, this will begin the true "lighting in a bottle" or bubble team era.
 

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Nichushkin will age well. Landeskog will age well if his knees hold up. Rantanen will age well. MacKinnon will not age well.
MacK will age the best out of those others because he's a conditioning freak and takes care of himself better than anyone
 
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Pokecheque

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I remember when Q was the coach, it was obvious the team had no shot at a title but it was still really fun to watch--still insanely bitter at Q for making that last-minute player swap that torpedoed that miracle playoff run, but apart from that, it was still enjoyable. I hope, even when the window inevitably closes, that the team remains competitive for a time.

MacK will age the best out of those others because he's a conditioning freak and takes care of himself better than anyone

MacK will almost definitely NOT age the best out of those others because he will lose the two major factors that make him an elite talent--strength and speed--and doesn't really have the hockey sense to make adjustments. His conditioning will hold off the inevitable for a time, but not indefinitely.
 

the_fan

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I remember when Q was the coach, it was obvious the team had no shot at a title but it was still really fun to watch--still insanely bitter at Q for making that last-minute player swap that torpedoed that miracle playoff run, but apart from that, it was still enjoyable. I hope, even when the window inevitably closes, that the team remains competitive for a time.



MacK will almost definitely NOT age the best out of those others because he will lose the two major factors that make him an elite talent--strength and speed--and doesn't really have the hockey sense to make adjustments. His conditioning will hold off the inevitable for a time, but not indefinitely.
I guess we'll see. I just feel like MacK will adjust his game when he loses speed, he will still have an elite shot and it's not like he suddenly won't be able to skate.
 
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Pokecheque

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I guess we'll see. I just feel like MacK will adjust his game when he loses speed, he will still have an elite shot and it's not like he suddenly won't be able to skate.
Not sure we watched the same Nathan MacKinnon because, dude, what makes you think the most stubborn player in all of hockey is going to make adjustments to his crash-and-bang style? Look how long it's taking him to make adjustments in OT and knowing when to back off a puck battle--he's still struggling with that NOW.

Jarome Iginla is probably a good comparison, though IMO Iggy had more hockey sense than Nate, though Nate had more raw athleticism and talent. He lost a few steps in the latter part of his career but still had that elite shot that allowed him to still put up respectable numbers as a power play specialist. But once the strength and power really regressed and he just got pushed off the puck way too easily, it was over.

Mind you, he was thirty-nine when that finally happened, but again, I don't see Nate making adjustments to his game. He's going to be a bull in a china shop for the remainder of his career no matter what.
 

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