Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[henchman21]

Of course it does.

And Hish probably would have always had a hard time translating to the NHL.

But I take a bit of offense to people stating that Hish was just a junior star and nothing more. A Pracey failure.

I think that is very unfair. If you knock McDavid out with a terrible concussion for two straight years right now, I highly doubt that he will just turn into Crosby 2.0 when he comes back.

IMO Hishon was a very good junior player, but not an amazing standout. He was a good player in a weak year for the OHL.

The concussion was a part of the failure of the pick, but Hishon's style of play contributed to his injury (he was far from an innocent player in his junior days) and him not being able to translate. He was a really feisty player... the concussion took part of that away and him no longer being averaged sized took away the last of it.

In 2010 Hishon was a reach where he was selected and already had an injury history at that point. Pracey was taking a pretty big risk selecting him there. If Hishon was selected at say 40, there isn't nearly as much criticism on the pick. The odds are pretty good that 8 of the following 10 picks after Hishon reach 200 NHL games.

I still maintain that Hish to me was a better prospect back then than Bleackley is right now.

I'll totally disagree with that. Bleacks has a middle 6 future. If he 'fails' he still has a bottom 6 game. Hishon was always top 6 or bust with a better chance of busting than booming. Pure offensive upside, there are/were about equal.

 

[AslanRH]

You have to offer him for free or in an actual trade?

Have to offer the player to the team(s) that tried to claim him first if they are willing to give a comparable value.

ex: if the trade is for a 6th then the team(s) that tried to claim him gets a chance to offer equal or better before you can make the original trade.

 

[forsbergavs32]

Has a lineup for tonight been released?

 

[JoemAvs]

IMO Hishon was a very good junior player, but not an amazing standout. He was a good player in a weak year for the OHL.

The concussion was a part of the failure of the pick, but Hishon's style of play contributed to his injury (he was far from an innocent player in his junior days) and him not being able to translate. He was a really feisty player... the concussion took part of that away and him no longer being averaged sized took away the last of it.

In 2010 Hishon was a reach where he was selected and already had an injury history at that point. Pracey was taking a pretty big risk selecting him there. If Hishon was selected at say 40, there isn't nearly as much criticism on the pick. The odds are pretty good that 8 of the following 10 picks after Hishon reach 200 NHL games.



I'll totally disagree with that. Bleacks has a middle 6 future. If he 'fails' he still has a bottom 6 game. Hishon was always top 6 or bust with a better chance of busting than booming. Pure offensive upside, there are/were about equal.

Well he was considered a steal at #17 in here a year after the draft (where he was considered a reach because of an injury (not a concussion). He was ranked pretty high before he got hurt at the start of the season) before he got rocked. Yeah that is hfboards for you but weak year or not. The kid had skill.

I and many did not realize that he really was smaller than most people thought but still. He was as you said feisty and playing fearless. I agree that was part of his appeal and that it obviously is gone now.

But I still think it is a bit unfair to compare the player Hishon was back then to the player Hishon is now after sitting out for 2 years. As I said. If you knock McDavid out for 2 years right now, odds are that he will never come close to his current ceiling.

He always had a mountain to climb with his size but just annointing him to be another junior star that busts does not feel right to me.


Regarding Bleackley:
Of course Bleackely is a way safer prospect than Hishon. Without a doubt.

I absolutely disagree on them having the same offensive upside. Hishon was obviously always way more risky but I think his offensive upside was a notch or two above Bleackleys.

Too bad that we will never find out. The discussion is moot anyways. The die for Joey with the Avs has been cast.

But I enjoyed following the Attack back then. (Andrew Shaw anyone? Who would have predicted that he would have a career and Hishon busts?).

Not playing the What-If game with Hishon when evaluating him just feels wrong.

 

[henchman21]

Well he was considered a steal at #17 in here a year after the draft (where he was considered a reach because of an injury (not a concussion). He was ranked pretty high before he got hurt at the start of the season) before he got rocked. Yeah that is hfboards for you but weak year or not. The kid had skill.

I and many did not realize that he really was smaller than most people thought but still. He was as you said feisty and playing fearless. I agree that was part of his appeal and that it obviously is gone now.

But I still think it is a bit unfair to compare the player Hishon was back then to the player Hishon is now after sitting out for 2 years. As I said. If you knock McDavid out for 2 years right now, odds are that he will never come close to his current ceiling.

He always had a mountain to climb with his size but just annointing him to be another junior star that busts does not feel right to me.


Regarding Bleackley:
Of course Bleackely is a way safer prospect than Hishon. Without a doubt.

I absolutely disagree on them having the same offensive upside. Hishon was obviously always way more risky but I think his offensive upside was a notch or two above Bleackleys.

Too bad that we will never find out. The discussion is moot anyways. The die for Joey with the Avs has been cast.

But I enjoyed following the Attack back then. (Andrew Shaw anyone? Who would have predicted that he would have a career and Hishon busts?).

Not playing the What-If game with Hishon when evaluating him just feels wrong.

Fans overrate prospects all the time. We are all guilty of it and have a bias. Scouts get paid to find the correct players, and Hishon (for a variety of reasons... some of his own and some way outside of his control) was not the correct player... not at the time and certainly not now.

Cedric McNicoll had skill. Francois Bouchard was way more skilled than Hish. Skill is only a small factor.

Unfair... well everything is really unfair. Injuries happen, developments don't go right, some prospects have mental issues, etc. What happens, happens. Fair or not things are what they are.

When it comes to Hish and Bleacks upsides... Hishon never had the type of shot that was going to allow him to score a lot of goals in the NHL. It was a ~15g sort of shot... maybe (big maybe) he could hit 20 in a peak year. Bleacks has a ~25g sort of shot (excellent release and it is pretty accurate), but doesn't have the creativity and playmaking Hish did. Pretty similar IMO, and personally I lean towards somebody who can score on their shot alone. That is a valuable skill in the NHL.

 

[JoemAvs]

Fans overrate prospects all the time. We are all guilty of it and have a bias. Scouts get paid to find the correct players, and Hishon (for a variety of reasons... some of his own and some way outside of his control) was not the correct player... not at the time and certainly not now.

Cedric McNicoll had skill. Francois Bouchard was way more skilled than Hish. Skill is only a small factor.

Unfair... well everything is really unfair. Injuries happen, developments don't go right, some prospects have mental issues, etc. What happens, happens. Fair or not things are what they are.

When it comes to Hish and Bleacks upsides... Hishon never had the type of shot that was going to allow him to score a lot of goals in the NHL. It was a ~15g sort of shot... maybe (big maybe) he could hit 20 in a peak year. Bleacks has a ~25g sort of shot (excellent release and it is pretty accurate), but doesn't have the creativity and playmaking Hish did. Pretty similar IMO, and personally I lean towards somebody who can score on their shot alone. That is a valuable skill in the NHL.

Well. I agree that Bleackleys shot is probably better. But I did a little search:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=563443&highlight=joey+hishon


Now I am convinced more than ever that I am not dreaming about Hish having more offensive upside to Bleackley. Yes some things were certainly over the top but the kid had real skill.

Of course there are always reasons why players bust.
But a horrible and dirty hit that leads to a concussion that robs a prospect 2 years of his development time? How often does that happen? That drastic and sad?

Hish dropped because of a broken foot not because he had a history with head injuries. The height measurement was obviously flawed (most are).

But if Hish would have hit a late (small) growth spurt and not got ruined by McNabb( two rather likely scenarios), I am absolutely convinced that this discussion would have a completely different tone.
That is why I object to discounting Hishon as a prospect back then.

 

[henchman21]

Hish dropped because of a broken foot not because he had a history with head injurys. The height measurement was obviously flawed (most are).

But if Hish would have hit a late growth spurt and not got ruined by McNabb( two rather likely scenarios), I am absolutely convinced that this discussion would have a completely different tone.
That is why I object to discounting Hishon as a prospect back then.

Hish had a bunch of injuries over his junior career. Not all of them kept him out of games, but the kid was never really fully healthy after game 5. The MCL was a bigger deal than his broken foot.

We will simply disagree about Hishon and his upside. Smaller players that are not absurdly skilled rarely score points in bunches in the NHL. There are more Sam Gagner's than there are Tyler Johnson and Daniel Briere's.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I don't see why he couldn't have been a Parise? IMO if he didn't get cheap shotted he'd be riding shotgun with Duchene by now.

 

[henchman21]

I don't see why he couldn't have been a Parise? IMO if he didn't get cheap shotted he'd be riding shotgun with Duchene by now.

Frame... Hishon has a thin frame. Parise is nearly a 200lbs player. Regardless of the hit, Hishon was going to have change his game to adapt to the NHL level. A 170lbs player is going to have issues playing a chippy game in the NHL while being skilled. It can happen, but it is fairly rare. Less than a handful of players play that sort of game undersized in the NHL now while being top 6 sorts (Marchand and Gallagher are two examples... both in the east).

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Danny boy and FLuery both had edges to their game and Hishon would've added more weight as he grows older.

Most small players play in the dirty areas of the rink, that's what makes them so good. Hishon had more talent then the 2 you mentioned.

 

[henchman21]

Danny boy and FLuery both had edges to their game and Hishon would've added more weight as he grows older.

Most small players play in the dirty areas of the rink, that's what makes them so good. Hishon had more talent then the 2 you mentioned.

Briere and Fluery were special players. They are the exception not the rule.

Those two are more fiesty and have better frames. Hish is still only pushing 170... if he could have added a bunch of weight, it would have been done over the past few offseasons. I just don't see Hishon at his size being able to play the game the way he did in the OHL being successful in the NHL. The odds are really stacked against that style of play for somebody that is 170lbs. Not impossible, but difficult.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Briere and Fluery were special players. They are the exception not the rule.

Those two are more fiesty and have better frames. Hish is still only pushing 170... if he could have added a bunch of weight, it would have been done over the past few offseasons. I just don't see Hishon at his size being able to play the game the way he did in the OHL being successful in the NHL. The odds are really stacked against that style of play for somebody that is 170lbs. Not impossible, but difficult.

I don't why not but I'm stubborn and like all of them to succeed no matter who they play for.

We can agree with that although you can say that about any player who has short comings... be it size or another hole in their game.

 

[Frenchy]

we are over a 1000 comments, plz use the new thread