Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part VII

[Bender]

I'm sorry, I fully disagree with you. There is absolutely no way for outsiders like ourselves to know what our pro scouts are telling management.

Pro scouts, their job is to evaluate the player currently playing in the pro level and giving their assessment of what they are capable of so that management can make educated decisions on what to do for their roster.

I understand the frustration of signing players like Tyutin or Colborne, but at the same time if the pro scout is telling management that Tyutin is a 3rd pairing/extra dman and Colborne is a 4th liner who can chip in occasionally. Then they did their job to a T. If management doesn't really listen to the evaluation properly and expects more than what they are told, that's on them.

Granted it can go both ways, in the sense that if the Pro scouts over-evaluates and tells management to expect more than what they are getting, that's on the scouts.

But to sit here and say there is a problem with pro scouting, is absurd, because we couldn't possibly know where the problem is, because we aren't sitting in on the meetings that occur between management and scouts.

I will agree there does seem to be a problem somewhere in the whole process. What it is needs to be identified and fixed before the Avs can progress forward.

This is a good post and I tend to agree.

When you think about it, what is more likely :

A) Our Pro Scouts recommended that we bring-in: Brad Stuart, Francois Beauchemin and Jarome Iginla and our management listened to them.

B) Our Pro Scouts recommended AGAINST bringing in: Brad Stuart, Francois Beauchemin and Jarome Iginla but our management did it anyways.

C) Our Pro Scouts weren't even consulted when those moves were made.

Personally, I tend to think that the answer is C or possibly B but it's not A because IF those guys had done that with the way things have turned out, I think they would have been fired a while back.

 

[Ivan13]

We don't know, this team is very inert when it comes to accountability as we witnessed many times, Tim Army still has a job after all, and Biller hasn't exactly established a great development system either. It is possible that the scouts recommended those guys, it's also possible someone decided to sign them despite what they've said. We don't know.

 

[tigervixxxen]

What? Why would they be fired? Everything they've done since the 2000s has worked out great. It's an insular nepotistic org. They hardly ever get rid of anybody.

 

[Bender]

I don't think it's reasonable to believe that the scouts got all the players right and the front office signed them too way too much money for far too long and for a role that was way too big for them.

I think the contracts reflect what the front office and pro scouts thinks and expect from a player. Weirioch - bottom pairing guy. Beauchemin and Iginla. Top players. Colborne, at least a 2nd/3rd line tweener.

We never have full information of anything when it comes to most things in life. We don't know the full process behind signing Joe Colborne to a 2 year $4.5M contract. But we do know what he looks like on the ice and that's all the information we need to evaluate it. If the pro scouts or GM were highest on him, doesn't really matter.

I think it's highly unlikely that a GM would go squarely against a pro scout all the time and the pro scout would have his job year after year.

There were some encouraging signs this summer. Two players on PTOs (zero risk) and the UFAs were signed to one or two year deals. If there was any bad deal, it's not going to haunt Avs forever. Sakic deserves credit for limiting the risks.

Honestly it just feels as though Sakic & McFarland realized where this team is truly at and signed placeholders until acquisitions are made/young players are ready. He says they have a plan in place and I believe him. I believe Patrick Roy never agreed with that plan or wanted to wait and carry it out and he decided to bail-out.

For Colbourne, I think they needed/wanted a player who could fill-in when Boedker signed in San Jose and they got a 19 goal scorer for almost half the term and price. I'm in the camp that believes that Bednar hasn't given him a good enough opportunity but that's neither here nor there.

 

[RockLobster]

Goody...

 

[Freudian]

This is a good post and I tend to agree.

When you think about it, what is more likely :

A) Our Pro Scouts recommended that we bring-in: Brad Stuart, Francois Beauchemin and Jarome Iginla and our management listened to them.

B) Our Pro Scouts recommended AGAINST bringing in: Brad Stuart, Francois Beauchemin and Jarome Iginla but our management did it anyways.

C) Our Pro Scouts weren't even consulted when those moves were made.

Personally, I tend to think that the answer is C or possibly B but it's not A because IF those guys had done that with the way things have turned out, I think they would have been fired a while back.

I think the most reasonable explanation is that Sakic and Roy wanted Stuart, Beachemin and Iginla and got green light from the pro scouts. I do think Sakic/Roy were very motivated to get veterans who had been in the Stanley Cup final, so that's not something you can pin on the pro scouts.

 

[chet1926]

I don't think it's reasonable to believe that the scouts got all the players right and the front office signed them too way too much money for far too long and for a role that was way too big for them.

I think the contracts reflect what the front office and pro scouts thinks and expect from a player. Weirioch - bottom pairing guy. Beauchemin and Iginla. Top players. Colborne, at least a 2nd/3rd line tweener.

We never have full information of anything when it comes to most things in life. We don't know the full process behind signing Joe Colborne to a 2 year $4.5M contract. But we do know what he looks like on the ice and that's all the information we need to evaluate it. If the pro scouts or GM were highest on him, doesn't really matter.

I think it's highly unlikely that a GM would go squarely against a pro scout all the time and the pro scout would have his job year after year.

There were some encouraging signs this summer. Two players on PTOs (zero risk) and the UFAs were signed to one or two year deals. If there was any bad deal, it's not going to haunt Avs forever. Sakic deserves credit for limiting the risks.

I agree 100%. To expect a pro scout to be right 100% of the time is just insane. And to expect a GM to go against what a pro scout is saying on a consistent basis is also crazy. It's clearly a little bit of both.

In fairness to the pro scouts Beauchemin played like a top 4 guy last season, who knew he was going to cliff dive so hard this year. I think our scouts probably expected two solid seasons and then a slight drop off the final season. Iginla had 51 goals his first two seasons here, yeah his 5v5 play sucked but I think they got what they expected from him, which was vet presence and some goal scoring. I think everyone knew the last season of his deal was going to be rough from the beginning. But sometimes you have to sacrifice a poor year to get a guy to sign with you. As for Colborne the guy was coming off a 19G, 44pts season, I don't know how anyone couldn't expect him to be a 2nd/3rd liner tweener. I think sometimes you just get unlucky, and a player just fails. I personally thought that was a great signing, but it's proven to be just awful. Oh well it happens.

The only player on the roster that I can say was probably a misfire on the pro scouts is Soderberg. It's pretty clear everyone scouts and management thought he'd be a reasonable 2C replacement for losing ROR, and it really hasn't been close to that, especially this season.

 

[Balthazar]

Pretty obvious that the pro scouts had absolutely nothing to do with Iggy or Beauchemin.

 

[chet1926]

This is a good post and I tend to agree.

When you think about it, what is more likely :

A) Our Pro Scouts recommended that we bring-in: Brad Stuart, Francois Beauchemin and Jarome Iginla and our management listened to them.

B) Our Pro Scouts recommended AGAINST bringing in: Brad Stuart, Francois Beauchemin and Jarome Iginla but our management did it anyways.

C) Our Pro Scouts weren't even consulted when those moves were made.

Personally, I tend to think that the answer is C or possibly B but it's not A because IF those guys had done that with the way things have turned out, I think they would have been fired a while back.

I tend to agree with you. Especially when Roy was around. I think we all know how stubborn Patrick can be. I would be willing to bet Roy had his eye on few guys and really didn't care what the scouts had to say, he wanted his guys.

 

[Ivan13]

I agree 100%. To expect a pro scout to be right 100% of the time is just insane. And to expect a GM to go against what a pro scout is saying on a consistent basis is also crazy. It's clearly a little bit of both.

In fairness to the pro scouts Beauchemin played like a top 4 guy last season, who knew he was going to cliff dive so hard this year. I think our scouts probably expected two solid seasons and then a slight drop off the final season. Iginla had 51 goals his first two seasons here, yeah his 5v5 play sucked but I think they got what they expected from him, which was vet presence and some goal scoring. I think everyone knew the last season of his deal was going to be rough from the beginning. But sometimes you have to sacrifice a poor year to get a guy to sign with you. As for Colborne the guy was coming off a 19G, 44pts season, I don't know how anyone couldn't expect him to be a 2nd/3rd liner tweener. I think sometimes you just get unlucky, and a player just fails. I personally thought that was a great signing, but it's proven to be just awful. Oh well it happens.

The only player on the roster that I can say was probably a misfire on the pro scouts is Soderberg. It's pretty clear everyone scouts and management thought he'd be a reasonable 2C replacement for losing ROR, and it really hasn't been close to that, especially this season.

You've seen him play?

Last year was an anomaly for him in terms of production, not the norm.

Soderberg was fine last season, this season he looks disinterested and out of place, some of that is on the coach, some of that is on him. He is still a much, much better player than JC ever was, and if he lands on a well-structured team he will bounce back for sure and provide a steady presence as a middle 6 centre.

 

[hockeyfish]

Goody...

We are going to see Landy in an Avs jersey again, right? Right? Please, just one more time.

 

[chet1926]

Goody...

Honestly I think it's a good thing that he is saying the "vultures are circling" that means lots of teams are interested and we should see a bidding war.

I personally think it is time to move on from Landeskog, Duchene and Barrie. They are all good players, but they just aren't meshing and the team isn't winning.

I'd like to hang onto Varly just because I've seen how bad Pickard can be. I think it would be a shame to let Varly go without ever seeing him in front of a competent defense.

 

[Freudian]

I think Söderberg is better than he's showing. He just needs more insulation. He does seem to hang his head and dog it a bit when he's not on the PP, so he might be a mood player. He's a passenger and I don't mean it in a negative way.

I have no doubt he would look ok on a better team. Just like he did on Bruins. But with that ticket, no one will trade for him.

 

[chet1926]

You've seen him play?

Last year was an anomaly for him in terms of production, not the norm.

Soderberg was fine last season, this season he looks disinterested and out of place, some of that is on the coach, some of that is on him. He is still a much, much better player than JC ever was, and if he lands on a well-structured team he will bounce back for sure and provide a steady presence as a middle 6 centre.

Honestly I thought Colborne was trending up heading into the year. I wasn't expecting 20+G and 50pts or anything like that, but I thought for sure he'd be capable of playing reasonable 3rd line minutes/emergency 2nd line minutes and contributing offensively. I sure as hell didn't think 4th liner/healthy scratch with only 3 goals (which were all scored in the first game) 1/2 way through the season. I was wrong in my assessment the guy looks closer to an AHLer than NHLer.

 

[Freudian]

Honestly I thought Colborne was trending up heading into the year. I wasn't expecting 20+G and 50pts or anything like that, but I thought for sure he'd be capable of playing reasonable 3rd line minutes/emergency 2nd line minutes and contributing offensively. I sure as hell didn't think 4th liner/healthy scratch with only 3 goals (which were all scored in the first game) 1/2 way through the season. I was wrong in my assessment the guy looks closer to an AHLer than NHLer.

Boston, Toronto and Calgary figured out what Avs currently are figuring out. Good size, decent hands and zero drive.

 

[Ivan13]

Boston, Toronto and Calgary figured out what Avs currently are figuring out. Good size, decent hands and zero drive.

Pretty much.

 

[Foppberg]

Honestly I think it's a good thing that he is saying the "vultures are circling" that means lots of teams are interested and we should see a bidding war.

I personally think it is time to move on from Landeskog, Duchene and Barrie. They are all good players, but they just aren't meshing and the team isn't winning.

I'd like to hang onto Varly just because I've seen how bad Pickard can be. I think it would be a shame to let Varly go without ever seeing him in front of a competent defense.

I agree that it's good that vultures are circling, signals multiple teams are interested. Duchene and Barrie I agree with, but Landy should definitely stay outside an overpayment. You shouldn't just make a trade for the sake of making a trade, especially since we'd have nobody to replace his defense upfront.

 

[henchman21]

You've seen him play?

This year is more of an anomaly than last year though. The previous two seasons he had 28 points in both with 14-15 being in 64 games. Including this disaster of a season, his NHL ppg is still .42. Colby's issues here are more fit and coach related than Colby not being able to produce. Saying that, Colby is the type of player coaches love to hate though (Grigo is in the same mold).

 

[S E P H]

Count me as one of the dudes who doesn't think the pro scouting team is as bad as the record says. I've said this countless times before, but Avs were a team which tried to find low risk, high reward moves for defenders since they didn't have any plans in getting rid of forwards. Moves, which certain posters wouldn't like to hear, but ones which used a number of draft picks, cap spaces, or youth prospects. Moves which did not effect the main roster from a solid core piece in a trade, that's what Avs tried to do. I can't fault either the front office or the pro scouting team in trying to find gems without having to make another impact trade (like they did with Erik Johnson). The team the Avs built on paper without having to get rid of one of their forwards is quite impressive. It's not like we were constantly drafting in top 3 getting a surplus of talent that way (as the Oilers did). Which gave them multiple options in a proposed trade and still be okay moving forward.

Now though, since all our defenders have basically regressed, Avs are in the point where they have to trade a forward for a defender. With all due respect is one aspect I don't understand in Freudian's view. You say that Avs pro scouting team sucks, since you listed a ton of defenders which do suck. No arguments from me, but then when Avs try and get a better defender for the sake of a forward, you deem it stupid (I.E. Landeskog for "X" Player). You can't have it both ways, which is what I am seeing here. If Landeskog is theoretically traded for Muzzin, then my opinion is pretty much rubbish. But if Landeskog does bring back a defender of Cam Fowler or McAvoy quality, then we need to consider it a step in the right direction. I think if there is an aspect which the pro scouting has failed on, it has been their track record concerning depth talent they have signed. Since everyone of them is either gone or just plains suck. Every team normally finds a useable NHL undrafted player or a Arvidsson type of player, but Avs seem to normally be one of the worst in the NHL concerning this.

 

[hockeyfish]

Speculation time, but maybe this potential LA deal is much bigger than we are imagining. Muzzin, for a team looking to get younger, doesn't make much sense for the Avs, but he has plenty of value to a contending team in need of defenders. So you end up with Landy to LA, Muzzin to 3rd team, Pearson, picks and top prospects to Avs.

 

[Freudian]

What I don't understand is why Avs seem intent on trading Landeskog, when he's about the only forward providing what they desperately need.

Perhaps they are figuring he might be the type of players who will have injury problems moving forward but even then Avs should have all the time in the world to wait for a deal they like. If they trade him for an underwhelming return in-season it would be so so strange.

 

[Bender]

Just to switch gears a little bit...as far as the vultures may be circling , I still think Sakic and co. are COMPLETELY in the drivers seat on this one. There is no deadline to get something done.

IF we do trade Landeskog, I really think it would be a shame but at the same time, we really don't have all of the information about all that goes on. All I know is that with Landy, he's been concussed a few times and has brought to light a lot of awareness for concussions which is really a great thing. At the same time, I have to wonder, maybe even subconsciously, if he hasn't been playing not to get hurt sometimes. We used to see him 'engage in Viking-mode' quite a lot more in his first few seasons than in recent ones. In any case, my preference would be to hang on to him as I think that kind of thing will gradually dissipate and unless the return is unreal, we won't get full-value.

 

[Ivan13]

This year is more of an anomaly than last year though. The previous two seasons he had 28 points in both with 14-15 being in 64 games. Including this disaster of a season, his NHL ppg is still .42. Colby's issues here are more fit and coach related than Colby not being able to produce. Saying that, Colby is the type of player coaches love to hate though (Grigo is in the same mold).

Well yeah, this year is an anomaly as well, there's no debating that. But like I said multiple times, he is a bad fit here because we have plenty of that type already - as you note as well. He is a player that puts up points when he is put in a perfect situation.

Quite frankly this also brings up another discussion, the pro scouts might be actually finding decent players here and there, but they are a bad fit for this team. The part of a job as a scout should also be the ability to decipher if the player will fit well with the roster you have right now. The fact that someone looks good on one team, doesn't necessarily mean he will look good put on a different one as I'm sure you know.

 

[chet1926]

I agree that it's good that vultures are circling, signals multiple teams are interested. Duchene and Barrie I agree with, but Landy should definitely stay outside an overpayment. You shouldn't just make a trade for the sake of making a trade, especially since we'd have nobody to replace his defense upfront.

I think all 3 need to go. The team needs a full on culture change. Best way to accomplish this is by shipping out the face of the franchise the past 7 seasons (Duchene) and the captain (Landeskog). Barrie I just think needs to be traded. I don't think he changes the culture much.

It sucks, and I know a lot of posters in here have huge man crushes on Landeskog, but fact is he has been the captain for now 5 seasons and we've made the playoffs all of once and we are headed towards a last place finish again. Not all his fault but clearly something isn't clicking with him being our fearless leader. Not to mention his game has slipped this season, 13 pts at this point in the season was not something I was expecting from him, granted he missed some time but that still is just not getting it done.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The last I'll say on this scouting thing, to me the argument is backwards. It's not about looking at each move and trying to pin back blame, it's about what has this franchise done in the last 10 years that would warrant keeping those guys around? It's pretty much excusing mediocrity to say it's been ok. Shouldn't we strive for better? Isn't there anyone better out there or at least with a fresh set of eyes? There's a few new amature scouts, why aren't we doing that with the pro scouts? It's not like we've built the dream team over the last 10 years.