Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part VII

[Cousin Eddie]

I prefer to evaluate a team from what actually happened instead of what didn't happen.

They have consistently failed. Both front office and pro scouting. They overvalue these slow AHL type defenders, that always seems to find a way to our NHL roster.

When the best puck movers added in the last decade is Andre Benoit and Patrich Weircioch, who both are rather mediocre, it's beyond bad. It's complete incompetence.

Crazy what a difference he made to this team and he isn't even an NHL quality player. He didn't over complicate things. Just made a simple pass the the easiest option time after time. It's not accident that he was on the ice for more of Matt Duchene's ES points that one season than any other defenseman.

Benoit was on the ice for 39% of Duchene's ES points that year. I watched a video a few weeks ago of all of Matt Duchene's goals from that PPG season and it's crazy how many of them started with Andre Benoit making a simple play from the back end. (An ROR video from that year draws the same conclusion). Duchene rarely scores off the rush anymore and that's because the rush never starts. Most fans woulodn't even notice the plays Benoit made since they're so simple and common around the league but in watching that video as an Avs fan this year I'm drooling because we don't get to experience it.

Check this out. I bet Avs fan would be the only people on the planet more impressed with Benoit's pass than Duchene's beautiful finish.

 

[Freudian]

Sure...but you are inferring those are the first decisions they made, when in fact several of those players were no where near that.

They tried for Sekera but didn't want to give out the term. They tried for Niskanen, Orpik, and Stralman but they preferred to stay out east.

There's a context to this man, and you're brazenly skipping over it because you are in a rush to point out the Pro Scouting is bad. It's ****ing stupid.

All 30 teams have a laundry list of players they tried to sign/trade for that they didn't get. What on earth does that prove?

Of course Avs tried to sign the most wanted UFA defender each year and if they did they would have overpaid like the team that got them. Surely that's not your gold standard for good pro scouting?

 

[Sea Eagles]

Hate beating that old drum, but I repeat what I said pre-season:

X Development year this year
X Keep team together until cap space opens with Iggy / Stuart / Vegas
X Attain a top 2-3 pick

Nothing much else required. The offers people are making for Landy and Duchene are a joke, and some of the Barrie one's are as well. Sakic needs to stand firm, and only trade these fellows if it's an overpayment - otherwise - back-off other GM's.

Worst case next season:
Landeskog - Mackinnon - Rantanen
Jost - Duchene - Top 2 Pick
Greer - Soderberg - Grigorenko
Nieto - Compher - Comeau

Zadorov - Johnson
Free Agent - Barrie
Beauchemin - Bigras

Pickard
Free Agent or Martin

Yes, that team would probably struggle to reach the cap floor, but so what, that's how a rebuild starts.

X Also more than happy for those free agent positions to be given to one of our junior guys, if they are 100% committed to each and every shift.

 

[Epic Neal Time]

^ I agree. I think the solution is new management. Trim the fat on the roster (Beauchemin, Soderberg). Draft Patrick/Hischier/Liljegren. Re-tool in the summer and palyoffs are attainable by 2018-2019, I think. The potential for a quick turnaround is there.

 

[agentblack]

There seems to be two sides to the pro D man debate. I think both are right and I would tend to skew towards the "Mid to top FA D men dont want to come here" camp but I also realize thats an easier answer and its alot more dismissive kind of like saying "Oh he's just not into you" and thats it , go to bed.

Saying the pro scouting is poor and we target the wrong players is a much harder pill to swallow and makes things a lot more complicated and frustrating. Cause you cant just swing for the top dudes and expect that to happen cause everyone wants the top guys. So you gotta be better at finding the right players...experience be damned. Maybe even actually use some of the younger guys you already have.

 

[RockLobster]

All 30 teams have a laundry list of players they tried to sign/trade for that they didn't get. What on earth does that prove?

Of course Avs tried to sign the most wanted UFA defender each year and if they did they would have overpaid like the team that got them. Surely that's not your gold standard for good pro scouting?

Where did I say they had good Pro Scouting?

Sure...ignore the names of players we know the Avs tried to bring in but it just didn't come together, because otherwise your list wouldn't look as bad as you're trying to make it (it'd still look bad, just not as bad)

 

[forsbergavs32]

Hate beating that old drum, but I repeat what I said pre-season:

X Development year this year
X Keep team together until cap space opens with Iggy / Stuart / Vegas
X Attain a top 2-3 pick

Nothing much else required. The offers people are making for Landy and Duchene are a joke, and some of the Barrie one's are as well. Sakic needs to stand firm, and only trade these fellows if it's an overpayment - otherwise - back-off other GM's.

Worst case next season:
Landeskog - Mackinnon - Rantanen
Jost - Duchene - Top 2 Pick
Greer - Soderberg - Grigorenko
Nieto - Compher - Comeau

Zadorov - Johnson
Free Agent - Barrie
Beauchemin - Bigras

Pickard
Free Agent or Martin

Yes, that team would probably struggle to reach the cap floor, but so what, that's how a rebuild starts.

X Also more than happy for those free agent positions to be given to one of our junior guys, if they are 100% committed to each and every shift.

Thank you

 

[EdAVSfan]

I think it would be extremely irresponsible of the avs to make a trade now rather than at the deadline.

That is, unless you get a great return.

I think knowing what your draft pick will be changes significantly what you can move and for who. I think by early march, it could be clearer as to where we might finish in the standings.

If you know that you have a top 2 pick going into the draft, at least then you can comfortably move duchene or landeskog for defense.

But barring an ideal return now, I'd hold off til the offseason to make the moves avs management seemingly wants to make.

I disagree with wanting to move those two for the record. I think if you stay the course, they'll be better off for it.

 

[Freudian]

Where did I say they had good Pro Scouting?

You need to stop throwing out nonsense like "your list wouldn't look as bad as you're trying to make it".

I'm not trying to make anything. There are all defenders added through trade or free agency that have played for Avs. It is what it is. I haven't omitted any good player to "try to make it look bad". I haven't added any ****** defender to "try to make it look bad".

If you actually have to start imagining moves that didn't happen for Avs history to look better, isn't that telling?

 

[Don Corleone]

That is, unless you get a great return.

Good luck Great return and Joe Sakic do not feature in the same sentence and never have.

How can anyone even defend the Pro Scouting? It has been truly awful. Many teams bring in decent pickups at free agency and in trades now and then but the Avs almost always get a shiny new turd.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Good luck Great return and Joe Sakic do not feature in the same sentence and never have.

I think they did a good job on the ROR trade.

Considering this would be a similar move, I have faith they can target the right players.

 

[AvsGuy]

Yeah, our pro scouting is bad and the proof is on the ice. Our free agent additions in the past few years alone should be enough evidence of this.

 

[Avs44]

You need to stop throwing out nonsense like "your list wouldn't look as bad as you're trying to make it".

I'm not trying to make anything. There are all defenders added through trade or free agency that have played for Avs. It is what it is. I haven't omitted any good player to "try to make it look bad". I haven't added any ****** defender to "try to make it look bad".

If you actually have to start imagining moves that didn't happen for Avs history to look better, isn't that telling?

Eh, I get his point. I feel like you're confusing the evaluation of pro scouts vs. management now a bit. Those are the defensmen the Avs have added, yes. However, in the end, it is management that signed every single one of them. We also know the Avs were in on defensmen like Sekera, Stralman, Niskanen was once mentioned, Orpik, etc. Obviously the pro scouts recommended guys like that too, didn't they? It's just that management failed to convince these guys / close out them coming here. The pro scouts have no control over that aspect at all.

 

[forsbergavs32]

I think they did a good job on the ROR trade.

Considering this would be a similar move, I have faith they can target the right players.

Exactly...plus we saw last year with Sakic asking for Draisaitl for Barrie, Edmonton offering RNH and Sakic declining that he isn't going to make a trade unless he's getting what he's looking for in return.

 

[Don Corleone]

I think they did a good job on the ROR trade.

Considering this would be a similar move, I have faith they can target the right players.

At least someone has faith in them

A good job is not exactly a great return

ROR
McGinn

VS

Zadorov
Compher
Grigo
31st pick

Grigo right now is pretty worthless. Compher has yet to play in NHL. Zadorov is a number 4 D at best right now. The 31st pick was wisely traded for more picks so that was good. Far too early to tell is the trade any good, it could seriously turn out to be pretty damn bad. I know people like to think that prospects all improve and become important pieces for the club but we will wait and see what happens in the coming years. The circumstances were against the Avs tough so I will give them that. Now this does not mean that I am not high on any of the players because I hope that Zadorov becomes a number 2 D but only time will tell.

 

[RockLobster]

You need to stop throwing out nonsense like "your list wouldn't look as bad as you're trying to make it".

I'm not trying to make anything. There are all defenders added through trade or free agency that have played for Avs. It is what it is. I haven't omitted any good player to "try to make it look bad". I haven't added any ****** defender to "try to make it look bad".

If you actually have to start imagining moves that didn't happen for Avs history to look better, isn't that telling?

And you should stop being in such a rush to post anything negative about the Avs, that you conveniently leave out context.

It matters.

I haven't imagined anything, rather told you that some of those players weren't the Avs' first option (which is exactly what your post was intended to imply). I didn't claim the Pro Scouting was good, simply said that IF they had gotten their known first choices on some of those, then the list wouldn't look as bad as it did.

But you're just in a hurry to be HF Avs' equivalent to Travis Yost or Ryan Lambert.

[EDIT]

Hell, even Avs44 pointed out something--the players we know they tried to sign were identified by the Pro Scouts, do they not get credit for that? It's not like that department failed to sign/trade for them, that's on Management.

 

[Mighty Makar]

Does anyone see Greer making the team (full time) next season?

 

[henchman21]

Any trade the Avs send out Duchene or Landy they are likely going to be sending out the best player and those types of deals are going to look bad for at least a while. I think a collective deep breath needs to be taken before freaking out on what may potentially happen. Too much freaking out over less than 5% of the picture.

 

[Don Corleone]

Even if they were not their first option does not make it any better. They have signed garbage NHLers for years now for good money and that is the only thing that matters. Its not like after the first option the next thing to do was trade for Stuart and extend him. There were many more better options.

 

[hockeyfish]

I just want to get this over with. Let's start the trading.

 

[RockLobster]

Any trade the Avs send out Duchene or Landy they are likely going to be sending out the best player and those types of deals are going to look bad for at least a while. I think a collective deep breath needs to be taken before freaking out on what may potentially happen. Too much freaking out over less than 5% of the picture.

Too late!

 

[Freudian]

And you should stop being in such a rush to post anything negative about the Avs, that you conveniently leave out context.

It matters.

I haven't imagined anything, rather told you that some of those players weren't the Avs' first option (which is exactly what your post was intended to imply). I didn't claim the Pro Scouting was good, simply said that IF they had gotten their known first choices on some of those, then the list wouldn't look as bad as it did.

But you're just in a hurry to be HF Avs' equivalent to Travis Yost or Ryan Lambert.

You do realize that there are 30 teams in the league and any team that manage to get all the players they want will look better? If you don't evaluate Avs performance with the understanding that they don't manage to get a lot of the players they want, you are the one trying to distort the picture.

I don't have to be negative. The list speaks for itself. It tells us all about the player types Avs target and how well that type of players perform in the AHL (edit: I meant NHL but I kinda like the typo so I'll leave it).

When most of them can't find a job among the 29 other NHL teams once they are gone from Avs, what does that tell you?

 

[EdAVSfan]

At least someone has faith in them

A good job is not exactly a great return

ROR
McGinn

VS

Zadorov
Compher
Grigo
31st pick

Grigo right now is pretty worthless. Compher has yet to play in NHL. Zadorov is a number 4 D at best right now. The 31st pick was wisely traded for more picks so that was good. Far too early to tell is the trade any good, it could seriously turn out to be pretty damn bad. I know people like to think that prospects all improve and become important pieces for the club but we will wait and see what happens in the coming years. The circumstances were against the Avs tough so I will give them that. Now this does not mean that I am not high on any of the players because I hope that Zadorov becomes a number 2 D but only time will tell.

I'm not passing judgement on the trade.

I'm basing it off the value we obtained in the circumstances.

The trade was very good value.

What we do and how we develop those pieces is up to us and doesn't tchange the value we got in the trade itself.

As an exaggeration only...
If I trade grigorenko for the first overall, and that pick busts completely, was the trade still not great value?

I get your point. But at the time, with the circumstances, avs got pretty good value.

 

[RockLobster]

You do realize that there are 30 teams in the league and any team that manage to get all the players they want will look better? If you don't evaluate Avs performance with the understanding that they don't manage to get a lot of the players they want, you are the one trying to distort the picture.

I don't have to be negative. The list speaks for itself. It tells us all about the player types Avs target and how well that type of players perform in the AHL (edit: I meant NHL but I kinda like the typo so I'll leave it).

When most of them can't find a job among the 29 other NHL teams once they are gone from Avs, what does that tell you?

It sure does when you purposely leave out context...

No where did I say the Avs' Pro Scouting is good. But once again, you have failed to recognize that (I assume it's for the reason I already stated--you're doing your best to be our version of Yost or Lambert).

Pro Scouting identifies players for the management to sign or trade for, and it's up to the GM and his team to carry that task out.

Does the Pro Scouting not get any sort of credit for recommending Sekera, Niskanen, Orpik, or Stralman (or the litany of other Defenseman the Avs have attempted to trade for)? You're confusing the shortcomings of the Front Office (i.e.--GM) with the shortcomings of the Pro Scouting team.

Your list speaks for itself because you've omitted (purposely, I might add) the context of players that aren't on the Avs, but we know for sure they attempted to get (either via UFA or trade). I think that matters because let's say even two of those players wind up on the Avs, then it pushes the garbage down the lineup, or out of it completely.

But my point still stands, I said even if we include those names, the list would still be bad, but not as bad as you've purposely spun yours to be.

 

[Don Corleone]

It sure does when you purposely leave out context...

I disagree. The list perfectly illustrates what the Avs have been doing with their money in free agency and trades. Not a single team gets entirely what they want but it is up to them to make good choices after the preferred options are not possible. The Avs have had a plan A and B, once that fell trough they have went as low as it gets with their acquisitions and called it a day.