Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXIX|Acquire All of Landy's Friends

[Gatorbait19]

Brent Burns signed that contract under a 73M dollar salary cap...meaning he consumed 10.95% of the salary cap when that contract kicked in...and that 8 year deal started with his age 31 season and runs until he's 39. Tyson will be signing a contract that will kick in under a cap that will be north of 85M...10.95% of which would be an AAV of (at least) 9.3M...when Ty will have just turned 29. So not even the worst case scenario sees Tyson getting more than Burns got.

There's a reason why Karlsson is going to get a lot more than Burns, even if he stays with SJ, despite Chewbacca being the better blueliner at this stage in their careers.

You’re comparing Barrie to a soon to be 2 time Norris winner that is better than Barrie in all facets. $8m/year will represent 9.5% of an $85m cap.

The best (established) comparable here is John Carlson, who signed an 8x8 deal last offseason. John Carlson is a better offensive player than Barrie, and is leaps and bounds ahead of Barrie defensively. 8x8 is a fair market value for what Carlson brings. Barrie does not bring what Carlson brings though.

 

[Mighty Makar]

7.5M is a good number for Barrie and if he is willing to take that, Sakic should go ahead and sign him.

This is what I’m hoping, but I think he’ll get more and $8M is the absolute highest I’d go. If he wants more than that, trade him. I think we can get a good return for him.

 

[cgf]

This is where your meandering comments make little sense.

I used the 11% from your comment on Burns. If this was a benchmark to justify paying Barrie more, use this % to illustrate the resulting number would still land around $7M.

So which is correct % or $ which still works out nearly the same? The difference is the amount to overpay him...$1M ($8M) or $2M ($9M)?

I used 10.95%, not 11%, and it wasn't a benchmark for paying Barrie, it was what Burns got on his deal. I explicitly answered what figures I'd be happy with for Barrie & what kind of an overpayment I could live with previously and none of those hit the 9.3M that Burns would've gotten under an 85M cap.

...this is why it's beneficial to actually read those meandering comments before responding to them...

 

[Gatorbait19]

He’s not, but Burns signed that deal early in the 2016-2017 season, when the salary cap was $75M.

Next years salary cap is expected to be $83M, and that’s not even the season Barrie’s next contract - regardless of what team it’s with - will kick in.

We also can’t forget the salary cap will certainly spike up once Seattle enters the fray.

Yes the cap will go up, but that doesn’t mean you use the extra cap space on a player that’s already peaked for us and won’t be able to use his skills to the best of his abilities based on the other players on our roster.

Also, if you’re using the “current market value” as opposed to 2016-17 when Burns signed his deal, then look at John Carlson. Carlson signed for 8x8 and is a much better player than Barrie.

 

[cgf]

You’re comparing Barrie to a soon to be 2 time Norris winner that is better than Barrie in all facets. $8m/year will represent 9.5% of an $85m cap.

The best (established) comparable here is John Carlson, who signed an 8x8 deal last offseason. John Carlson is a better offensive player than Barrie, and is leaps and bounds ahead of Barrie defensively. 8x8 is a fair market value for what Carlson brings. Barrie does not bring what Carlson brings though.

I did no such thing. You compared Tyson to Burns, I just explained why your 8M figure was misleading in any discussion of a Barrie extension which would kick in for the 2020-2021 season.

Yes the cap will go up, but that doesn’t mean you use the extra cap space on a player that’s already peaked for us and won’t be able to use his skills to the best of his abilities based on the other players on our roster.

Also, if you’re using the “current market value” as opposed to 2016-17 when Burns signed his deal, then look at John Carlson. Carlson signed for 8x8 and is a much better player than Barrie.

Who says he's already peaked for us?

 

[Gatorbait19]

I did no such thing. You compared Tyson to Burns, I just explained why your 8M figure was misleading in any discussion of a Barrie extension which would kick in for the 2020-2021 season.

That’s fine, then compare him to Carlson. If Carlson is worth 8x8, then Barrie is worth less than that.

 

[cgf]

That’s fine, then compare him to Carlson. If Carlson is worth 8x8, then Barrie is worth less than that.

You've got some work to do to convince me that Carlson is so substantially superior to Tyson that 2 years of cap rises wouldn't negate any difference in their quality. And let me head you off on this one; merely repeating "Barrie is a defensive liability" won't cut it unless you have something substantive to back that.

Plus that "Carlson is a better offensive player than Barrie" claim needs a lot of defending...especially given that Tyson has 12 more primary 5on5 points and just as many primary points in all situations since becoming an NHL regular; despite playing for a team that scored 113 fewer goals than did Carlson's over that time frame.

 

[Gatorbait19]

So not only do you want to trade Barrie, you want to add #16 to him to get Jared Spurgeon? Da fuq?

While Spurgeon is not as good as Barrie offensively, he’s much better defensively. I obviously would hope to trade Barrie for second line help and then trade 16oa (plus maybe a decent prospect) for Spurgeon. Our team then improves defensively through the addition of Spurgeon and offensively through the second line scoring help we get for Barrie.

If you look at the top 30+ scoring defenseman from last year they are all vastly better defenders than Barrie is. His offensive production, which no doubt will take a hit from the emergence of Makar/Girard, is not enough to overcome his defensive issues.

 

[Perratrooper]

Would you guys consider something around Barrie and 4th for Mantha and 6th? Give or take some minor addition.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Why would Barrie only fetch a 1st round draft pick? Have people not seen Barrie play?

Did he all of a sudden become an offensively limited left handed d man?

The most valuable thing in today’s NHL is a good player signed to a reasonable/team friendly deal.

Guys that are about to get paid top $$$ are not worth their full value as a result. This is the situation here with Tyson. If he was signed to a reasonable/team friendly contract, he would return much more in trade. But since he’s a soon to be free agent seeking $8m+ we won’t get full value.

 

[Gatorbait19]

I did no such thing. You compared Tyson to Burns, I just explained why your 8M figure was misleading in any discussion of a Barrie extension which would kick in for the 2020-2021 season.


Who says he's already peaked for us?

The writing’s on the wall here with Makar on the top line/PP. There’s a reason Tyson had only 5 shots over the last 5 games.

I’m not going to say that Tyson’s success is all because of MacK (b/c it isn’t), but you’ve got to recognize that Tyson’s numbers were inflated just having the benefit of playing with MacK. Now move him away from MacK and take away his top PP minutes, and you’re left with an offensive Dman that won’t be given the opportunity to maximize his value to the team.

Also, Barrie’s extension would then kick in when he’s 29. An offensive specialist that relies heavily on his speed to generate production will be in serious trouble the second he starts slowing down.

 

[lonelybadger]

There is 0 chance all Barrie gets is a 1st round pick. Even at the deadline he would be worth more than 1st rounder.

He is not as good as Karlsson obviously but he is much better than Vatanen. Vatanen got Henrique, Blandisi and a conditional 3rd.

 

[Gatorbait19]

You've got some work to do to convince me that Carlson is so substantially superior to Tyson that 2 years of cap rises wouldn't negate any difference in their quality. And let me head you off on this one; merely repeating "Barrie is a defensive liability" won't cut it unless you have something substantive to back that.

Plus that "Carlson is a better offensive player than Barrie" claim needs a lot of defending...especially given that Tyson has 12 more primary 5on5 points and just as many primary points in all situations since becoming an NHL regular; despite playing for a team that scored 113 fewer goals than did Carlson's over that time frame.

First, you’re comparing a deal that was signed last year, compared to one that will be signed this summer. That’s 1 year difference and doesn’t matter when the contract kicked in.

Even using 2 years of salary cap increase (from $80m today to $85 in 2 years) though in comparison to Carlson’s contract, means That approx $500k is the difference in market value when Carlson signed and in the future. Even adding in the inflation and increased cap, Carlson is a better player, one who I’d be much more inclined to pay $8.5m a year than I would Barrie.

Also, your offensive production argument is flawed not taking into account PP points and the fact that Carlson put up 68 and 70 points the last 2 years, respectively.

However, even if they are close/even offensively, you’re argument is that Tyson’s 12 extra 5v5 points over the last 8+ seasons, completely offsets the vast difference between Tyson/Carlson defensively?

 

[Balthazar]

You've got some work to do to convince me that Carlson is so substantially superior to Tyson that 2 years of cap rises wouldn't negate any difference in their quality.

Really? Carlson is a minute munching #1 dman and signed his deal after a career year and a Stanley Cup. He averaged over 25 min a game last year (vs Tyson's 21). Other than similar offensive production they are nothing alike.

 

[Patagonia]

I did no such thing. You compared Tyson to Burns, I just explained why your 8M figure was misleading in any discussion of a Barrie extension which would kick in for the 2020-2021 season.


Who says he's already peaked for us?

I’ve never used Burns as a comparable until you considered his salary was based on a % Cap which is approx 11% or 10.95% if you want to be so specific. Barrie should be using a similar formula with a higher cap to justify his earnings. The end result is still approx $7M per.

So what is a reasonable amount?

You keep changing the commentary and make unfounded accusations about not reading. Clarify your position rather than backtracking and deflecting the answer about misunderstanding.

Provide a reasonable salary amount.

 

[Mighty Makar]

6 years/$45M is a good deal for Barrie.

 

[Gatorbait19]

There is 0 chance all Barrie gets is a 1st round pick. Even at the deadline he would be worth more than 1st rounder.

He is not as good as Karlsson obviously but he is much better than Vatanen. Vatanen got Henrique, Blandisi and a conditional 3rd.

I think that’s the minimum that Barrie is worth.

Vatanen isn’t great, but he was still signed for 3+ years when he was traded and wasn’t about to demand $8m for 5+ years. Henrique is average and ppl believe he’s overpaid, and the rest were just throw ins.

Jake Muzzin is a better Dman than Barrie (no not offensively, but in total), and he was traded for a first and 2 decent prospects. Muzzin though still had 1.5+ years left on his deal that pays him $4.85m/year.

Even if you assume Muzzin and Barrie are equal players, the loss of that extra half season+ Negatively affects Barrie’s trade value and makes him worth a 1st and decent prospect at most (or an average/decent center like Henrique - so think Kadri).

 

[Gatorbait19]

Really? Carlson is a minute munching #1 dman and signed his deal after a career year and a Stanley Cup. He averaged over 25 min a game last year (vs Tyson's 21). Other than similar offensive production they are nothing alike.

I know +/- can be misleading (especially with the Caps being good and the Avs being bad during the relevant time period), but Barrie’s a career -59 while Carlson is a +80.

 

[lonelybadger]

I think that’s the minimum that Barrie is worth.

Vatanen isn’t great, but he was still signed for 3+ years when he was traded and wasn’t about to demand $8m for 5+ years. Henrique is average and ppl believe he’s overpaid, and the rest were just throw ins.

Jake Muzzin is a better Dman than Barrie (no not offensively, but in total), and he was traded for a first and 2 decent prospects. Muzzin though still had 1.5+ years left on his deal that pays him $4.85m/year.

Even if you assume Muzzin and Barrie are equal players, the loss of that extra half season+ Negatively affects Barrie’s trade value and makes him worth a 1st and decent prospect at most (or an average/decent center like Henrique - so think Kadri).

Jake Muzzin is also 30 years old, is left handed, and has a career high of 41 points. The one year left on his contract does not matter, all the big name pending ufa players who are traded are talking to the other teams about contract before except for Karlsson but Karlsson was 1)probably not happy with Ottawa and wanted to give them the least leverage possible and 2) is going to be the best defenseman to hit UFA in 10 years.

In the last 2 seasons Barrie is 6th in D scoring, 9th in the last 3.

 

[Balthazar]

I know +/- can be misleading (especially with the Caps being good and the Avs being bad during the relevant time period), but Barrie’s a career -59 while Carlson is a +80.

John Carlson is what Tyson Barrie would be if he was 6'3 and good defensively. He's a legit #1 defenseman and there's a very short list of established defensemen that I'd take in front of him (Jones, Doughty, Hedman...and I can't think of anyone else.) It's a bit crazy to compare him to Tyson Barrie, sorry cgf.

 

[Gatorbait19]

6 years/$45M is a good deal for Barrie.

I recognize we have cap space and that tyson’s Been an important part of this team...but you’re willing to make TYSON BARRIE the 3rd highest Dman in the league?

The same Tyson Barrie that was 56th amongst Dmen in TOI last year (which will only decrease moving forward), who is a defensive black hole who’s been a negative +\- guy for all but 2 years of his career.

 

[lonelybadger]

I recognize we have cap space and that tyson’s Been an important part of this team...but you’re willing to make TYSON BARRIE the 3rd highest Dman in the league?

The same Tyson Barrie that was 56th amongst Dmen in TOI last year (which will only decrease moving forward), who is a defensive black hole who’s been a negative +\- guy for all but 2 years of his career.

56th in TOI and 6th in scoring...sure sounds terrible to me.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Jake Muzzin is also 30 years old, is left handed, and has a career high of 41 points. The one year left on his contract does not matter, all the big name pending ufa players who are traded are talking to the other teams about contract before except for Karlsson but Karlsson was 1)probably not happy with Ottawa and wanted to give them the least leverage possible and 2) is going to be the best defenseman to hit UFA in 10 years.

In the last 2 seasons Barrie is 6th in D scoring, 9th in the last 3.

He was also 56th in TOI last year amongst Dmen and a serious defensive liability (hence his low TOI).

Yes, hes had a lot of points the last 2-3 years but a large % came on the PP and a significant number came as a result of playing with MacK.

 

[Mighty Makar]

I recognize we have cap space and that tyson’s Been an important part of this team...but you’re willing to make TYSON BARRIE the 3rd highest Dman in the league?

The same Tyson Barrie that was 56th amongst Dmen in TOI last year (which will only decrease moving forward), who is a defensive black hole who’s been a negative +\- guy for all but 2 years of his career.

Yep! The salary cap is going up and a bunch of other dman signed their contracts earlier. Would he even be the 3rd highest? Burns, Hedman, Doughty, OEL I think make more than $7.5M? Karlsson will make more this summer.

What do you think is fair for Barrie?

 

[Echo Roku]

I recognize we have cap space and that tyson’s Been an important part of this team...but you’re willing to make TYSON BARRIE the 3rd highest Dman in the league?

The same Tyson Barrie that was 56th amongst Dmen in TOI last year (which will only decrease moving forward), who is a defensive black hole who’s been a negative +\- guy for all but 2 years of his career.

7.5mil would be ties for 10th, no? Before any new contracts