Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XXIX|Acquire All of Landy's Friends

[Gatorbait19]

Sorry, I shouldn’t have singled your post out - I know many others would be in favor of trading the 4oa as well.

There’s no doubt Trocheck would help this team. But that 4th overall pick has an excellent chance of producing a top line caliber forward/first pairing caliber defenseman.

The thing is, Colorado’s window isn’t going to close anytime soon. Three years from today’s date, MacKinnon will be 26, Rantanen 25, Girard 24, Makar 23, and whomever they draft in June 21.

This team is young and built for the long haul.

No offense taken and I think you have valid points.

My point is that I’d rather guarantee ourselves something out of 4oa (Horvat or Trocheck), as opposed to simply having a “chance” to get a good player. Yes 4oa has produced a lot of talent, but as others have mentioned, there’s busts there too (I remember Puljajarvi being lauded as an excellent pick).

While I hope whoever we draft at 4oa will be a Tkachuk/Marner/Makar/Jones level player, I think we’d all probably be happy if the player 4oa is as good as Trocheck/Horvat. That coupled with the fact that Trocheck/Horvat are on team friendly deals and entering their prime, makes me feel that it’s worth it to make the move.

Frankly, my preference (and by far the best option) would be to keep the pick and trade any combination of prospects/other picks and/or Barrie to get the 2nd line help we desperately need, but I just don’t see us being able to get what we need without 4oa.

 

[cgf]

I'm open to moving #4 if a cheaper & more appealing C solution doesn't materialize via FA or an EJ-/#16-based trade...and I have banged the drum for Tro on here a lot over the years...but he's closer to exiting his prime than entering it; especially with the injuries that his body has started to rack up.

He's always had some of those Duchene-issues utilizing his linemates, but he's been a one-man wrecking crew on Florida's 2nd line for so long that I've wanted him to back up 9296 badly despite that...but I dunno how many more seasons he has left at that level before his body really starts falling apart; as he's really put that little thing through hell. And once he starts slowing down noticeably, I dunno how effective he'll remain given those issues with utilizing his linemates...he may not be a big PWF like Lucic / Ladd / Backes, but I won't be surprised if Tro ages like he was.

That said, he's never had a winger like Mikko before, so it's certainly possible that Tro would be a lot more willing to differ to Rantanen (if they were paired up) than he has been with anyone that the Panthros have given him to work with...and it's not like I expect him to cease being a top 6 C during his current contract.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

I’m not interested in moving #4.

I want to add a premier prospect that will be cost-controlled for a number of years. It doesn’t bother me in the least bit that whoever we draft out of Byram/Dach/Turcotte/Cozens will be at least 1, likely 2, years away.

I’m open to moving #16 and a B piece for a good forward, but that’s pretty much it.

#4 is off the table, in my opinion, and I can’t see Sakic trading it anyways.

 

[henchman21]

#4 shouldn't be traded for anybody outside of a #1C or #1D.

 

[cgf]

What if we hear from the FA's agents that none of them are coming, and there's no #16+ or EJ trade that solves the 2C hole but we can acquire a 1b C (Zibby+) using #4? It's not my first option, obviously, but if the other avenues fail us, do we risk another season on hoping that the college kids + an FA winger will be enough?

 

[RoyIsALegend]

What if we hear from the FA's agents that none of them are coming, and there's no #16+ or EJ trade that solves the 2C hole but we can acquire a 1b C (Zibby+) using #4? It's not my first option, obviously, but if the other avenues fail us, do we risk another season on hoping that the college kids + an FA winger will be enough?

You keep exploring options. Scoring by committee and adding two of the tier 2 free agent forwards is still better than moving the 4OV.

To me, it’s simple.

When you’re trading a top 5 pick(which never happens anyways), you don’t “settle.” You wait to be knocked off your feet.

If nobody does that, you draft the future 1st line forward or 1st pairing defenseman and trust your scouts.

 

[henchman21]

What if we hear from the FA's agents that none of them are coming, and there's no #16+ or EJ trade that solves the 2C hole but we can acquire a 1b C (Zibby+) using #4? It's not my first option, obviously, but if the other avenues fail us, do we risk another season on hoping that the college kids + an FA winger will be enough?

Every year there are moves available for less pieces than the Avs have available - #4. If the Avs fail to address the issue, it isn't for a lack of assets... it is a lack of wherewithal.

 

[RockLobster]

Every year there are moves available for less pieces than the Avs have available - #4. If the Avs fail to address the issue, it isn't for a lack of assets... it is a lack of wherewithal.

*Ding Ding Ding Ding*

If the Avs are opening the season with Jost as the 2C based solely on his PO performance, Joe f***ed up (once again). And at that point, despite him being an Avs legend, he will need to move out of the way for someone who will actually have the balls to be aggressive enough to address the holes on the roster.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

The only way I’m okay with Jost starting next season as our 2C is if his wingers are Panarin and Landeskog. Even if Jost isn’t ready for that role his faults will be deeply hidden by those two.

 

[cgf]

Every year there are moves available for less pieces than the Avs have available - #4. If the Avs fail to address the issue, it isn't for a lack of assets... it is a lack of wherewithal.

Link?

 

[shadow1]

Except the cap exists even if you are young. Matthews is 22, Marner is 21, Rielly is 25, Tavares is 28, Nylander is 23, Dermott is 22, etc.; but that's not stopping Toronto's window from closing

I don’t think their window is closing. They will definitely lose some good pieces, for sure. But every team does at some point or another, and Colorado will be no exception.

As long as the Leafs - or in this case, the Avs - keep their core group together, they’re going to be successful.

 

[cgf]

You keep exploring options. Scoring by committee and adding two of the tier 2 free agent forwards is still better than moving the 4OV.

To me, it’s simple.

When you’re trading a top 5 pick(which never happens anyways), you don’t “settle.” You wait to be knocked off your feet.

If nobody does that, you draft the future 1st line forward or 1st pairing defenseman and trust your scouts.

That's fair...as I don't expect us to actually need to use #4; I guess I'm just sick of re-hashing Hayes & Kadri and so have been playing a little devil's advocate to explore what the alternatives for #4 could be. As ultimately I agree 100% with what Henchy said about cheaper options being out there even if they're not heavily reported. So this is mostly just a hypothetical discussion for me.

Although in the hypothetical situation where there really are no cheaper alternatives, then I think I might settle on a #4 trade before sacrificing another season at the alter of waiting for the college line to get the job done...maybe...

 

[cgf]

I don’t think their window is closing. They will definitely lose some good pieces, for sure. But every team does at some point or another, and Colorado will be no exception.

As long as the Leafs - or in this case, the Avs - keep their core group together, they’re going to be successful.

It may not be slamming shut, but they are a young core and this past season was their best shot Maybe we just have different definitions of success. Do you think Winnipeg has been successful up until now?

Cause if Trouba & the other departures that they face this summer, shuts their window like I expect, I would not consider them successful. They had multiple good shots at the cup & failed to capitalize because they dawdled so much in the earlier stages of their ascent, which to me is a failure, but if you think Chevy has been successful with the Jets then we just have different standards.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I am not interested in seeing the #4 traded. That top-end cost-controlled asset will be much needed in the future when the cap becomes a problem. Turcotte has the potential to be better than Horvat and Trocheck, Zegras could be the next Pettersson, Byram could easily be a top-pair D maybe even #1D. I have no problem waiting a year or two for one of them to start making an impact on the team. We have other very nice pieces that we can use to improve our top-6.

The first thing I would do is sign Connolly. IMO he would be a great fit in our top-6. It seems he has found his game the past year but he should still be relatively cheap at around 3.5M/yr. He is a good fit with Bednar I believe. He has speed, size, can handle physicality and play both sides, is right handed and most of all he can score. Ferland is another one they could sign if they miss on a bigger UFA. At least those two would make the team much harder to play against and provide better secondary scoring.

Landy - Mack - UFA/Compher
Connolly - Jost/Compher - Rants

is a better top-6 we had this season. Jost is not perfect as a #2C but if you insert him between two big guys that can handle the puck and give him space I think he would do well enough while waiting for our #4 pick to be ready. If we could find a higher-end UFA winger for Mack we could also switch Landy and Connolly as Landy has already showed chemistry with Jost. If Jost fails then try Compher. All this is better to me than trading that #4 pick.

 

[henchman21]

The only way I’m okay with Jost starting next season as our 2C is if his wingers are Panarin and Landeskog. Even if Jost isn’t ready for that role his faults will be deeply hidden by those two.

If the Avs don't address the #2C issue and pull something like that... I'd say they need to line up Landy as the #2C and try that.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

If the Avs don't address the #2C issue and pull something like that... I'd say they need to line up Landy as the #2C and try that.

You really don’t think a Landeskog - Jost - Panarin 2nd like is adequate enough?

 

[RoyIsALegend]

If the Avs don't address the #2C issue and pull something like that... I'd say they need to line up Landy as the #2C and try that.

I was literally typing that out right now, I swear. Damn you.

He’s honestly the perfect fit for 2C. Wins draws. Defensively a beast. Plays a heavy game. Less minutes off the top line could be a great thing for him.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I was literally typing that out right now, I swear. Damn you.

He’s honestly the perfect fit for 2C. Wins draws. Defensively a beast. Plays a heavy game. Less minutes off the top line could be a great thing for him.

I wouldn't have a problem with trying Landy at C if they can't find another solution.

 

[henchman21]

You really don’t think a Landeskog - Jost - Panarin 2nd like is adequate enough?

I've said it probably too much, but Jost isn't capable of being that center yet. Landy would have to be that center in practice, and if they go that route, they should just try to convert Landy. That is really my point there. If they don't address the #2C spot, the most capable player on the roster is likely Landeskog.

 

[henchman21]

I was literally typing that out right now, I swear. Damn you.

He’s honestly the perfect fit for 2C. Wins draws. Defensively a beast. Plays a heavy game. Less minutes off the top line could be a great thing for him.

Agreed... but I also worry what it would do to the top line. If the Avs don't address it though, it would be my first experiment in camp.

 

[cgf]

If the Avs don't address the #2C issue and pull something like that... I'd say they need to line up Landy as the #2C and try that.

I become more & more on board with that solution, by the day...assuming we don't actually solve that spot this offseason *sigh*

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I've said it probably too much, but Jost isn't capable of being that center yet. Landy would have to be that center in practice, and if they go that route, they should just try to convert Landy. That is really my point there. If they don't address the #2C spot, the most capable player on the roster is likely Landeskog.

Why though? Jost has plenty of flaws but his ability to play the centre position isn’t one of them. Especially in the defensive zone. Plays low in the zone, plays his area/man perfectly. Plus when he gathers the puck it’s usually followed my a smart possession play by moving it forward with the unit.

I’m quite disappointed in Jost but it’s mostly because of his quickness and strength. I was expecting a huge growth year from him and it didn’t happen on offensive side of the ice but he took enormous strengths forward this season away from the puck. I think he has easily passed every other centre on the team besides Soderberg from a defensive perspective.

Ideally yes we acquire a legit 2C, but in the hypothetical scenario that Panarin comes on board it’s hard to ask for much more than a 2nd line of Landeskog-Jost-Panarin. You can’t expect to have bonafide top 6 players in each position of the top 6. Few teams accomplish that. Having 2 bonafide 1st line players being centered by a 21 point 3rd line centre on your 2nd line is a pretty good spot to be in.

As hard as I’ve been on him, Jost still had 14 goals and 30 points in 82 total games this past season/playoffs. While as I said, being a better defensive player than guys like Mackinnon, Kerfoot and Compher. Having him between two all stars while playing secondary competition isn’t the end of the world. Landeskog can still play the wing/centre hybrid position as he does for Mackinnon. He’d be sheltered perfectly.

 

[henchman21]

Why though? Jost has plenty of flaws but his ability to play the centre position isn’t one of them. Especially in the defensive zone. Plays low in the zone, plays his area/man perfectly. Plus when he gathers the puck it’s usually followed my a smart possession play by moving it forward with the unit.

I’m quite disappointed in Jost but it’s mostly because of his quickness and strength. I was expecting a huge growth year from him and it didn’t happen on offensive side of the ice but he took enormous strengths forward this season away from the puck. I think he has easily passed every other centre on the team besides Soderberg from a defensive perspective.

Ideally yes we acquire a legit 2C, but in the hypothetical scenario that Panarin comes on board it’s hard to ask for much more than a 2nd line of Landeskog-Jost-Panarin. You can’t expect to have bonafide top 6 players in each position of the top 6. Few teams accomplish that. Having 2 bonafide 1st line players being centered by a 21 point 3rd line centre on your 2nd line is a pretty good spot to be in.

As hard as I’ve been on him, Jost still had 14 goals and 30 points in 82 total games this past season/playoffs. While as I said, being a better defensive player than guys like Mackinnon, Kerfoot and Compher. Having him between two all stars while playing secondary competition isn’t the end of the world. Landeskog can still play the wing/centre hybrid position as he does for Mackinnon. He’d be sheltered perfectly.

I'm sure I have typed out about the equivalent of War and Peace on this subject, but it comes down to skating. Smaller centers like Jost have to be high end skaters to be consistently effective on both ends of the ice. They can impact one end of the ice or the other, or be inconsistent on both ends if they are lacking skating, but to be a #2C you need to hit both ends of the ice and impact at an above average level on both ends of the ice consistently. Especially considering who our #1C is and his lack of defense. Like you said, Jost can be good defensively at center, and that is a good thing to have... but he's never shown a consistent offensive tilt while playing center. When it does show up, he's playing 11 minutes a night... not 16+ (which is a huge difference for a center). I fully believe that if Jost stays at center, he will top out as a #3C.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I'm sure I have typed out about the equivalent of War and Peace on this subject, but it comes down to skating. Smaller centers like Jost have to be high end skaters to be consistently effective on both ends of the ice. They can impact one end of the ice or the other, or be inconsistent on both ends if they are lacking skating, but to be a #2C you need to hit both ends of the ice and impact at an above average level on both ends of the ice consistently. Especially considering who our #1C is and his lack of defense. Like you said, Jost can be good defensively at center, and that is a good thing to have... but he's never shown a consistent offensive tilt while playing center. When it does show up, he's playing 11 minutes a night... not 16+ (which is a huge difference for a center). I fully believe that if Jost stays at center, he will top out as a #3C.

I get everything you’re saying. I really do. But I just don’t see what size has to do with anything as a centre ice player if physicality isn’t what you use to show your strengths. Toews, ROR, Krejci, Backstrom are all examples of great defensive centers who don’t rely on their speed or strength to make them what they are. Yes those guys are bigger than Jost (Backstrom and Krecji are basically the same size), but even if they were smaller than Jost they’d still likely be as good at what they do because their height isn’t what makes them good.

Yes there are plenty of examples of small guys who completely rely on speed to succeed. But that’s simply because speed is the biggest attribute that makes their game. Jost’s is based on positioning and intelligence in the same way as it does for those guys I listed above.

I get every argument you made, but Jost doesn’t rely on the attributes you’re putting emphsasis on. Josts strengths are elsewhere. You wouldn’t look at Joe Thornton and say he will fail as a playmaker because most playmakers are great skaters.

 

[the_fan]

If Avs draft a center at#4 Sakic isnt gonna get an expensive 2nd line C through a trade or free agency. I mean he could trade for someone who can play C and W so when let's say its Turcotte who Avs draft and is ready for NHL, then that center who they traded for will move to wing, or get a top 2nd line winger and have Jost or Soderberg again playing 2nd line center next year