GDT: Avs @ Caps | November 21, 2015 | 5 PM MT | Thanks a Lot Roy, You Ruined It

[Foppa2118]

No one is saying the players don't own a share of the blame for how the team is performing. They clearly do.

But you have just decided coaching isn't a problem and it's on the players.

Each to their own, I guess. Most Avs fans and almost everyone else in the hockey world disagrees.

The interview with Caps assistant coach told us all we need to know. They know Avs want to create on the rush and if they stop that they're good. Now look at the team Avs have. Who can create off the rush? MacKinnon, Duchene, Barrie and possibly Landeskog/EJ. Why the hell would a team like this try to score off the rush? As for Caps plan to create offense. We already know this because every team does it against Avs. Get the puck deep. The defensive coverage is so chaotic it's Washington Generals.

I agree that players should do more, but where is the accountability. Iginla, Tanguay and Comeau have floated a lot this season. Not a second of ice time taken away. McLeod, Comeau, Tanguay and Landeskog has taken lots of stupid or bad penalties between them. Not a second of ice time taken away. Coach and players as partners seems like a ****ing stupid idea to me. The coach shouldn't be your friend. He's your boss.

I've decided that because I have yet to see something he is or isn't doing as a major reason for the losses. I've only seen a couple people mention specifics on his "systems" and I agree with some of them, like pressuring the points, and being too spread out on the breakout, but they pale in comparison to the biggest reasons I see for losses.

The biggest factors by far have been decision making from everyone, star players and goaltending not playing up to par, secondary scoring not pulling their weight, players not bearing down on their chances, speed not being a strength for too many players, and four out of six defenseman every night being either naturally poor defensively, or too young to be strong in that area.

Roy has tried being positive, he's tried being critical, IMO he's behind putting pressure on them externally with rumors, he's tried skating them hard, he's tried giving them days off. They're just not figuring it out, and they garner most of the blame for that. I would say the same if his name was Joe Schmo instead of Patrick Roy.

Honestly, in this day and age I don't believe there's a big discrepancy between systems on teams. I think everyone's good and this had lead to the parity in the league. The biggest difference between losing and winning teams is a matter of wills between players in their one on one battles, a matter of experience, and finally a matter of mobility, and hockey smarts. The Avalanche just aren't strong in a lot of these areas.

A coach's biggest contribution now IMO is in teaching young teams, and when they become veteran teams, then you have the small differences in bench management and tactics, but that comes out more in the playoffs. The Avalanche are still a young learning team, and they have major holes in their lineup. These are things that systems, or just coaching in general can't overcome and make them compete with the more veteran teams that are built well and play well.

As painful as it is, and I share that pain, we're just going to have to wait another few years until Zadorov has a some years under his belt, and younger forwards like Rantanan, Bigras, Geertsen, Pickard, Compher, Greer, and the next wave have some experience at the pro level.

The team started playing noticeably better once the coaches FINALLY started putting emphasis on organized play in the neutral zone. Up until then it was mostly just different variations of "collapse in the d-zone and block shots." It's nice they're finally doing it, but I'm not sure what took so damned long for them to come to this realization. This should have been worked out FAR beforehand. I feel like Roy takes a far too lazy approach to preseason, but that's MHO. Either way Roy took way too long to find a defensive scheme that was effective. That's on the coaches more than the players IMO. Now, the fact that too many players were playing fancy, cute perimeter hockey on the offensive end despite what were pretty obvious protestations from the coach, THAT is on the players.

I'll agree there's only so much the coaches can do with the current roster. But to say they've done their best in terms of organization and preparedness is simply not true. They've failed every bit as miserably as the players, in terms of defensive scheme, special teams preparedness, and most of all, lineup decisions. Roy made some horrid ones earlier in the season, and he's making better ones now, but that doesn't excuse previous blunders.

And, well, as far as the goalies go, Allaire kinda needs to figure out how to fix this current mess. It was he who pushed for the Avs to acquire Berra, so it's his responsibility as well as Berra's himself to get up to par. I'm hoping Varly's horrendous start was mostly injury-related and that he's fully mended now.

Here's the thing. If it's the coaches that are behind this than why can the players do it well on some shifts and in some games, and then fall completely apart on nights like this, and other moments during this three game losing streak? Is it the coaches or the players?

Same with Duchene. Is Roy to blame for all the problems of the team but not credited for his resurgence? How about their three game win streak. I see Roy blamed for every loss but then they win three in a row, and the players are now the ones behind it.

The players are the biggest reasons for both the losses and the wins. Both the good and the bad plays. We can't blame one for the negatives and then give credit to another for the positives.

 

[CobraAcesS]

On the Caps broadcast, they said that Berra allows 50+% of the goals high blocker side while league average was 24% or so. If Caps broadcast crew know this, I think it's fair to say 29 teams do.

Not to quote myself, but...

Berra is starting to remind me a lot of Budaj tbH... Good in some stretches as an injury fill in and as a backup, great team guy. As soon as he plays long enough for teams to game plan against him he starts to get exposed IMO.

 

[hawk30]

Roy's starting to get that Sacco look in his face.

Seriously, though, he's over his head. This is going to be painful ride.

 

[dahrougem2]

If this continues for another month, I'd like to see players like Agozzinno, Smith, and Bourke recalled. Don't care if it makes us the smallest team in the league (Though I don't think anybody can be smaller than New Jersey currently), I want to see what they have at the NHL level and if they can be part of the solution moving forward.

 

[CobraAcesS]

If this continues for another month, I'd like to see players like Agozzinno, Smith, and Bourke recalled. Don't care if it makes us the smallest team in the league (Though I don't think anybody can be smaller than New Jersey currently), I want to see what they have at the NHL level and if they can be part of the solution moving forward.

Wont matter if they're brought up and played on the third/4th line for 10 minutes or less a game.

I'd be screaming to high heaven for Zadorov and Mikko back if I thought they were going to be put in all situations with a long leash to learn and develop. But I don't believe that will happen.

 

[dahrougem2]

Wont matter if they're brought up and played on the third/4th line for 10 minutes or less a game.

I'd be screaming to high heaven for Zadorov and Mikko back if I thought they were going to be put in all situations with a long leash to learn and develop. But I don't believe that will happen.

How do you explain Grigorenko then?

People may rag on Roy for his systems or whatever, but I don't doubt his abilities with young players.

 

[CobraAcesS]

How do you explain Grigorenko then?

People may rag on Roy for his systems or whatever, but I don't doubt his abilities with young players.

Some... I won't even remotely begin to let Roy get away with a pass on all of his decisions regarding the younger players.

Hes been anything but perfect there.

Edit : One of my issues with Roy is I do not believe he'll at any point decide to use whats left of the season to develop younger players for next year either. I hope I'm wrong, but It's hard to imagine him conceding the team isn't ready to compete yet. If any coach had the security to do so, it's him. Most other coaches would have far more pressure to play the veterans and get wins than he does.

 

[dahrougem2]

Some... I won't even remotely begin to let Roy get away with a pass on all of his decisions regarding the younger players.

Hes been anything but perfect there.

Edit : One of my issues with Roy is I do not believe he'll at any point decide to use whats left of the season to develop younger players for next year either. I hope I'm wrong, but It's hard to imagine him conceding the team isn't ready to compete yet. If any coach had the security to do so, it's him. Most other coaches would have far more pressure to play the veterans and get wins than he does.

You have a point with Roy not wanting to concede the season as over to develop younger players, but if the young guys manage to get time whether it be due to injuries or trades or whatever, I think he'll be fair with them.

 

[CobraAcesS]

You have a point with Roy not wanting to concede the season as over to develop younger players, but if the young guys manage to get time whether it be due to injuries or trades or whatever, I think he'll be fair with them.

Fair is not what you were talking about, and or what I would want if the top players from SA were brought up.

 

[dahrougem2]

Fair is not what you were talking about, and or what I would want if the top players from SA were brought up.

How is it not what I was talking about? I stated I'd like to see what they have at the NHL level and then said that Roy would likely be fair with them.

 

[CobraAcesS]

How is it not what I was talking about? I stated I'd like to see what they have at the NHL level and then said that Roy would likely be fair with them.

And I said I don't believe Roy would give them the minutes or line mates to 'see what they have' if one or more were called up. Going on to point out that I do not believe Roy would take the roster in a development first type of direction.

Do you see our cross road now?

 

[tigervixxxen]

I'd explain Grigo as a special case because they didn't want to waive him and Roy knows him well, there was probably a bit more trust built there and he basically had to play him at some point. Plus Grigo didn't really get the leash until he scored in Montreal, that probably bought him some big points in Patty's book.

It is an interesting question, when will Roy concede the season? He basically didn't last year until they were mathematically eliminated with one game to go. I guess it depends if they remain competitive or not. It is true there's no point to just playing the vets but how do you sell throwing in the towel and playing the kids to the other vets, the ones that will be here for a few years? And how soon? The last month or so sure but by December? Also, what if the Rampage look like they could be a real playoff team, does that factor in at all not to dismantle what they have built down there to play out the string here? I'm sure they all want to get NHL experience (and pay) but there is value in being part of a real team and winning environment vs. just wasting time here.

My guess it Roy will keep it going until the all-star break or maybe even the trade deadline but if this really is looking like a 60ish point team then he'll start to give the kids real looks. Maybe not all at once but the real prospects will all see some time.

 

[agentblack]

If the Avs season ends and the Rampage are in their playoffs can they send Grigs down? Some teams have done this havent they?

 

[CobraAcesS]

I'd explain Grigo as a special case because they didn't want to waive him and Roy knows him well, there was probably a bit more trust built there and he basically had to play him at some point. Plus Grigo didn't really get the leash until he scored in Montreal, that probably bought him some big points in Patty's book.

It is an interesting question, when will Roy concede the season? He basically didn't last year until they were mathematically eliminated with one game to go. I guess it depends if they remain competitive or not. It is true there's no point to just playing the vets but how do you sell throwing in the towel and playing the kids to the other vets, the ones that will be here for a few years? And how soon? The last month or so sure but by December? Also, what if the Rampage look like they could be a real playoff team, does that factor in at all not to dismantle what they have built down there to play out the string here? I'm sure they all want to get NHL experience (and pay) but there is value in being part of a real team and winning environment vs. just wasting time here.

My guess it Roy will keep it going until the all-star break or maybe even the trade deadline but if this really is looking like a 60ish point team then he'll start to give the kids real looks. Maybe not all at once but the real prospects will all see some time.

While I think SA has value as a winning culture, the AHL is not the NHL. I do believe Zadorov and Mikko would be better off at the NHL level without a leash and learning how to play next to players they might well be playing next to for 10 years.

Just my opinion though, my issue is so many guys have success in the AHL, but can't translate it to the NHL. I don't believe a long duration in the AHL is as helpful as some do I guess.

My hope would be them being more prepared to compete at a consistent level next season, through experience and coaching at the NHL level. They both have proven they can play here without looking like #6 or bottom six players regularly.

I know you care about SA, but in all honesty selfish though it may be.. I don't that much

Edit : Zadorov's comment about gaining confidence, and Mikko's about getting quality minutes really stand out to me though. Which is why I'm not really beating this drumb harder, I'm not that sure of my own opinion on this tbH...

 

[tigervixxxen]

If the Avs season ends and the Rampage are in their playoffs can they send Grigs down? Some teams have done this havent they?

I think if they are subject to waivers they'd still have to be waived. I also believe there is some rule that they have to be on the AHL roster on some certain day that's right after the trade deadline. Basically anyone who had played in the AHL can go but they can't just send a bunch of guys for the fun of it. For example last year Buffalo sent Grigo down but not Zadorov. So someone like Grigo probably not but someone like Everberg would have a better chance.

 

[chet1926]

I'm not even sure what to do at this point.

You can't fire Roy after you just gave Joe freaking Sacco 4 full years.

I'd say you could make some trades but realistically, I'm not sure who I'd trade to get things looking better. You can't trade MacKinnon as he is the face of the franchise, you can't trade Duchene who is a point per game player and those don't exactly grow on trees, you can't trade EJ for obvious reasons, and after watching the goalies that past 2 games anyone with a brain can see Berra is back to being Berra and Pickard isn't trustable for a full starting goalie workload, so that means Varly can't be moved. Iginla isn't going to waive his NTC, same goes for Beauchemin. Tanguay wouldn't net much and is hurt.

So in my brain that leaves two players that can be moved and would get a good return. They are Barrie (who has been discussed at length so I won't get into him) and Landeskog. I know I'll get slammed for even uttering Landeskog should be moved. But I've never been huge on Landeskog. I think even though he is the captain, he wasn't chosen by Roy so I don't think there is any loyalty there. He get's hyped up around these parts, but from what I've seen he hasn't been very good this year, and really hasn't been the same player since Stuart leveled him leaving him concussed in his 2nd year. Even when he plays on the top line with Duchene and MacK, he is still fumbling around and not winning puck battles. I hate to say it but that line looked better with Grigorenko. With him as our leader we haven't exactly had sterling numbers, maybe it's just time to move on from him or maybe it's time to think about taking the C away from him, and giving to a player like Johnson, who consistently leaves it all on the ice. All I'm saying is I haven't liked the team under Landeskog's watch and I am fully in doubt of his real leadership qualities as it doesn't really seem he has his guys rallying behind him, and nothing ever seems to change.

 

[dahrougem2]

And I said I don't believe Roy would give them the minutes or line mates to 'see what they have' if one or more were called up. Going on to point out that I do not believe Roy would take the roster in a development first type of direction.

Do you see our cross road now?

I see your cross road with Roy, which to an extend I understand due to prior call-ups being relegated to less than 10 minutes, but I do believe this season if we're out of it in the next few months he'll be fair with the players should they be called up

 

[tigervixxxen]

While I think SA has value as a winning culture, the AHL is not the NHL. I do believe Zadorov and Mikko would be better off at the NHL level without a leash and learning how to play next to players they might well be playing next to for 10 years.

Just my opinion though, my issue is so many guys have success in the AHL, but can't translate it to the NHL. I don't believe a long duration in the AHL is as helpful as some do I guess.

My hope would be them being more prepared to compete at a consistent level next season, through experience and coaching at the NHL level. They both have proven they can play here without looking like #6 or bottom six players regularly.

I know you care about SA, but in all honesty selfish though it may be.. I don't that much

Edit : Zadorov's comment about gaining confidence, and Mikko's about getting quality minutes really stand out to me though. Which is why I'm not really beating this drumb harder, I'm not that sure of my own opinion on this tbH...

I see it both ways because I do believe NHL experience is important and before we go through another summer of thinking guys like Zadorov, Rantanen and possibly Bigras can contribute I would like to have an actual basis for what expectation could be. I didn't want Rantanen or Zadorov to go down really because I thought they could play at this level. I totally understand if others don't care about the Rampage winning but leaning how to win is important too. I didn't think they would do so well and the Avs would do so poor, things can change of course but I thought both teams would be in more similar spots. NHL experience there is no substitute for but right now its not a great place to be, its probably a terrible atmosphere. At some point I do want everyone to get a legit shot, I just don't know if I want the kids all brought up en masse.

 

[StLAvsFan]

This is our forwards outside of Landeskog, MacK, Duchene ;

This is 10 of 13 forwards...

Grigorenko
Iginla
Soderberg
Mitchell*
Comeau
Skille
Matrinsen
Everberg
McLeod
Wagner

Which of those guys belongs on a second line on a playoff team?

Edit : Staring at that list is painful as hell versus what we started 13-14 with...

O'Reilly - Duchene - Downie

Landeskog - Stastny - Tanguay

McGinn - MacK - Parenteau

McLeod - Mitchell - Bordy

I wonder how Roy got 112 points out of THAT roster...

None of your list of 10 is a 2nd line player on a playoff team. In fact, only Iggy & Soderberg would be 3rd liners on a contending team. The rest would be 4th liners & AHL'ers at best. (I had high hopes for Comeau being a solid addition to the Avs, but he's been a complete bust so far. Dude should be a 4th liner due to his atrocious play.) So, when one looks at the sluggish/low skill nature of the Avs forwards you listed, does it stand to reason that Patrick Roy should want the Avs (as a team) to play a high tempo, run & gun, offensive style of hockey? The answer should be pretty obvious, because thinking the Avs are gonna be high-flying is akin to running a stock car in a F1 race. The reality of the current roster situation is that the Avs should be doing their best New Jersey Devils routine every game instead of pretending to be the Black Hawks, coz the overall talent level here is just way too low to even attempt to be anything other than a muck & grub, clutch & grab kind of team. I guarantee you, unless the Avs simplify their game to the most basic level, they're gonna be bottom feeders for a long time.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I see your cross road with Roy, which to an extend I understand due to prior call-ups being relegated to less than 10 minutes, but I do believe this season if we're out of it in the next few months he'll be fair with the players should they be called up

I just don't have that sort of faith in Roy playing young guys over vets at any point as a develop the team for next year type of strategy. Hope I'm wrong

I see it both ways because I do believe NHL experience is important and before we go through another summer of thinking guys like Zadorov, Rantanen and possibly Bigras can contribute I would like to have an actual basis for what expectation could be. I didn't want Rantanen or Zadorov to go down really because I thought they could play at this level. I totally understand if others don't care about the Rampage winning but leaning how to win is important too. I didn't think they would do so well and the Avs would do so poor, things can change of course but I thought both teams would be in more similar spots. NHL experience there is no substitute for but right now its not a great place to be, its probably a terrible atmosphere. At some point I do want everyone to get a legit shot, I just don't know if I want the kids all brought up en masse.

Part of me believes changing that much of the team might actually contribute positively to the internal culture, also that relieving some of the pressure to win now off of this team might also not be a bad thing as a whole. We've seen it with the Avs, and other teams like Buffalo and Calgary, how simply playing for a job or playing to play without a ton of pressure in the NHL can have a positive effect on the players and the score sheet.

Learning how to win is important, but if the player is slapped in the face with the reality they can't come up to the NHL level and produce the same way, that confidence meter can go all the way back to zero if they expect too much of themselves. Or if the team and fans expect too much of them.

Gormley is an example of a player I believe was in the AHL too long, the kid settled into thinking the game at the AHL level when he had an NHL level IQ almost out of junior. I think hes rebuilding his potential in very small steps this year.

The pinnacle for me is expecting any player without significant experience at the NHL level to be ready to be a relied on as part of the team out of training camp. It happens some times, but its more often than not a damn rough ride the first part of the season which takes leeway and patience by the coach.

I do not want to rely on Mikko and Zadorov for next year if they are in the AHL for most of this year, and I'm afraid we will be relying on them next year.

None of your list of 10 is a 2nd line player on a playoff team. In fact, only Iggy & Soderberg would be 3rd liners on a contending team. The rest would be 4th liners & AHL'ers at best. (I had high hopes for Comeau being a solid addition to the Avs, but he's been a complete bust so far. Dude should be a 4th liner due to his atrocious play.) So, when one looks at the sluggish/low skill nature of the Avs forwards you listed, does it stand to reason that Patrick Roy should want the Avs (as a team) to play a high tempo, run & gun, offensive style of hockey? The answer should be pretty obvious, because thinking the Avs are gonna be high-flying is akin to running a stock car in a F1 race. The reality of the current roster situation is that the Avs should be doing their best New Jersey Devils routine every game instead of pretending to be the Black Hawks, coz the overall talent level here is just way too low to even attempt to be anything other than a muck & grub, clutch & grab kind of team. I guarantee you, unless the Avs simplify their game to the most basic level, they're gonna be bottom feeders for a long time.

The last thing I want is any of the core players on this team learning to play a NJ type of style. It's not worth it to possibly eak out a few more points now IMO.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

If not for that 3-game "win streak", we'd be securely in last place in the league.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i think avs have gotten better in the neutral zone. they've been harder to play against there and don't just allow the other team to carry the puck in. softer on the forecheck but that's the trade off one has to make.

but they are very poor at recovering dump-ins. it's almost like they are content on other team getting the puck. breakouts are still an issue though they also seem a bit better. the shot blocking scheme is still a problem it won't allow shots in the house but with all those bodies in front of the net, it's not always easy for goalie to see the puck so those shots can be very dangerous.

 

[StLAvsFan]

The last thing I want is any of the core players on this team learning to play a NJ type of style. It's not worth it to possibly eak out a few more points now IMO.[/QUOTE]

I'm no fan of the Devils slow-it-down, clog-up-the-ice style of play either, but when u trot out the likes of the Avs roster every game, short of Varly or Berra standing on their heads with regularity, the Avs are gonna get exposed & lit up by any decent opponent who actually plays the game with any semblance of structure and intensity. For this current team to even dream of the playoffs the next 2-3 seasons, they don't have much choice other than playing a simple, tight-checking game, because they simply don't have anywhere near the horses (offensively or defensively) to be much more than a league punching bag. And the scary thing is, most of the "help on the horizon" in San Antonio is still probably 2-3-4 years away from being able to significantly contribute at the NHL level. So either the current Avs are gonna learn to play a simpler, more defensively-oriented style of hockey pretty quickly, or they're gonna be residing in the basement of the league for a long time to come.

 

[AslanRH]

I think I have less concern about all these "4th liners", and more concern about how they are managed. I'll address what seems to be the 2 biggest "disappointments" on the board of late.

Comeau was always a complementary piece. He is pretty much producing offense at his normal pace. He had big numbers when playing with very talented offensive players. He hasn't been as effective defensively as hoped, but no Av has. He either needs to stay on a 3rd line that is more of a checking line, or be relied on simply as the space maker/net crasher/defensive minded guy on a big line like MacK-Dutch. He is what he is.

Soderberg needs skilled linemates to be effective offensively. He has for the most part consistently looked more comfortable over the 20 games, and most of us were pleased with his games when he got to play with some actual skilled players. Putting him with McLeod (although that line was good last night at times), Everberg, Rendulic, etc isn't putting him in a position to succeed.

As for the core, I don't know if they are in a position to succeed as a whole either.

The Landy-MacK-Duchene line is bound to produce, but Landy is really just a 3rd wheel most of the time. He needs to be more than that on his line. I think he should be put with Yeti on the 2nd so there is at least a threat of 2 lines game in game out.

The MacK-Dutch experiment wont last forever. Eventually Roy and Sakic will want to see their desired 1a-1b punch with Duchene and MacK down the middle. If Duchene can't become the guy who can carry a 1B line at center, the Avs will need to shift their thinking more towards the way of the Hawks. Guys like Grigs and Yeti being mid to low 2Cs who are put on a line with the most dynamic winger on the roster. That may end up being Duchene anyway.

[end long post]

 

[CobraAcesS]

I think I have less concern about all these "4th liners", and more concern about how they are managed. I'll address what seems to be the 2 biggest "disappointments" on the board of late.

Comeau was always a complementary piece. He is pretty much producing offense at his normal pace. He had big numbers when playing with very talented offensive players. He hasn't been as effective defensively as hoped, but no Av has. He either needs to stay on a 3rd line that is more of a checking line, or be relied on simply as the space maker/net crasher/defensive minded guy on a big line like MacK-Dutch. He is what he is.

Soderberg needs skilled linemates to be effective offensively. He has for the most part consistently looked more comfortable over the 20 games, and most of us were pleased with his games when he got to play with some actual skilled players. Putting him with McLeod (although that line was good last night at times), Everberg, Rendulic, etc isn't putting him in a position to succeed.

As for the core, I don't know if they are in a position to succeed as a whole either.

The Landy-MacK-Duchene line is bound to produce, but Landy is really just a 3rd wheel most of the time. He needs to be more than that on his line. I think he should be put with Yeti on the 2nd so there is at least a threat of 2 lines game in game out.

The MacK-Dutch experiment wont last forever. Eventually Roy and Sakic will want to see their desired 1a-1b punch with Duchene and MacK down the middle. If Duchene can't become the guy who can carry a 1B line at center, the Avs will need to shift their thinking more towards the way of the Hawks. Guys like Grigs and Yeti being mid to low 2Cs who are put on a line with the most dynamic winger on the roster. That may end up being Duchene anyway.

[end long post]

Agree with most of that, except Comeau actually has to be and do those things. He has not thus far...

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Greg as the potential #2 center of the future though, or at least the #2 LW. His defensive instincts make him a great fit for the role. At full potential he could be a better version of Stastny if he maintains consistency and a bit of growth and experience in terms of his defensive IQ.

Greg - Duchy - Mikko has so much potential to be a complete line with everything you need on it.

Soda is a passer and smart player as well. So I'd like to see one of Greg or Soda with one of Duchene/MacK at all times.

That gives us our beloved top two lines with two centers on them.

I'd love to see Roy run some combination of ; MacK, Duchy, Greg, Landy, Soda, and Mikko as the top 6 for the rest of the season. Iginla can pad his HOF stats on the power play.

We're not here to stagnate our teams progress towards competing so this guy can ride off into the sunset as a productive player. He gives 100% in the offensive zone, and 50% effort in our own end. Hes an absolute passenger on this bus IMO.