Proposal: Avs and Devils

[JoemAvs]

That's great, but being liked doesn't mean you're immune from being traded. Of course he's liked, if they didn't like him they wouldn't have taken him. But this is a business and you need to give to get.

If Sakic is only willing to put up spare parts then he's going to get equal quality in return.

I'd highly recommend Sakics interview he gave yesterday to Lebrun (can be found @TheAthletic)

He states that D is the hardest position to get and that you have to pretty much draft them

And to quote:

" We got Sam in the (Colorado-Nashville-Ottawa blockbuster) trade, obviously Cale, we also have Connor Timmins getting better and better, eventually Bowen. So we feel we’re in a good spot defense-wise and that’s obviously been the toughest position to get. Now, we hope we’re in a good shape there, we’re pretty happy with that D-corps that’s coming up."

Does that sound like he is really thinking long and hard about trading him?

He also is indirectly answering questions about what he might do now or at the deadline.
Lets just say I feel a lot better aboutit after reading that and don't believe there is a high chance he will give up a ton for Hall given that he especially stressed great team chemistry (which a rental Hall certainly could disrupt) and that he will only make a move if he is sure about it and if it makes sense from a price standpoint.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Timmins stock was sky high after WJCs and before his concussion. I totally get people being wary because of the injury and he did miss a significant amount of time, but since then he's bounced back and has looked like he hasn't missed a beat. Even beat out NHL vets in camp to make the Avs opening night roster after not playing for so long.

I think you're underselling Timmins, I have a hard time believing NJ will get a better defensive prospect than him, especially if Hall is a pure rental.

I'm underselling Timmins as a fringe Grade A? What do you call him? Grade A or higher?

Devils will get offered solid prospects and several Grade A's will be on the table from various teams. It's up to the Devils to decide who they fell is the best fit for them. You don't get to tell them how to do their own evaluation on a prospect. That is their prerogative and the only leverage they have cause Hall is gone if they don't trade him. All you can do is offer a package and hope it's the best offer.

Juulsen also cracked the NHL roster for the Habs last year and played top 4D effectively before his injury. I call him a above average grade B or fringe grade A. It's just too hard to nail down cause it's a moving target. If Timmins continues to show what he has in his 19 AHL games, He would move from fringe grade A to Grade A for sure. But we don't know the future

 

[Forge]

I hope that Devils fans don't expect a top-tier prospect or high-end roster player (such as a Byram or a Makar, as suggested above) from any team. It's not going to happen.

I don't. That's why Timmins has a certain appeal, I will admit. The thing that pushes him down is that very scary concussion, but I think that he has the actual talent to be a top tier prospect. So I think from a talent perspective, he may actually be one of the better prospects we can hope to obtain.

The thing is, people hold different values for different prospects, and that is what is hard to gauge. For example, I think Bean in Carolina is a quality prospect, but I haven't considered him top tier. But Carolina fans and others may feel differently. So that's where this all gets muddled.

 

[Ararana]

I'm underselling Timmins as a fringe Grade A? What do you call him? Grade A or higher?

Devils will get offered solid prospects and several Grade A's will be on the table from various teams. It's up to the Devils to decide who they fell is the best fit for them. You don't get to tell them how to do their own evaluation on a prospect. That is their prerogative and the only leverage they have cause Hall is gone if they don't trade him. All you can do is offer a package and hope it's the best offer.

Juulsen also cracked the NHL roster for the Habs last year and played top 4D effectively before his injury. I call him a above average grade B or fringe grade A. It's just too hard to nail down cause it's a moving target.

I agree with you that Timmins is a low A to fringe A. I'm just saying I don't think NJ will be offered a better defensive prospect, teams don't trade those. Especially if Hall isn't coming with a contract extension.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I agree with you that Timmins is a low A to fringe A. I'm just saying I don't think NJ will be offered a better defensive prospect, teams don't trade those. Especially if Hall isn't coming with a contract extension.

It's hard to say so I'm not going to pretend to know for sure. Karlsson got Norris who IMO is a grade A who has great development years. Of course Karlsson > Hall but supply and demand always sets the price. Will there be a bidding war? Isn't that how the Avs got the return for Duchene? It's very possible the Devils have a few teams that want him and I can see the price rising a bit with a desperate GM.

As a Habs fan, I'm only interested in sign/trade (Hall for 7 years at $9M). I realize that he might be overpaid but that's the reality with UFA's and it's Montreal where the taxes are high. My max offer would be...

- Primeau or Poehling (pick one). Primeau getting his first start as a 20 year old tonight.
- C Fleury (I believe he is close to Timmins)
- Byron (cap reasons)
- 2020 2nd
- Other prospects who could be added if required (bidding war)... Ylonen & Hillis types.

* Suzuki, Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Romanov, 1st round picks are off the table.

 

[JoemAvs]

I agree with you that Timmins is a low A to fringe A. I'm just saying I don't think NJ will be offered a better defensive prospect, teams don't trade those. Especially if Hall isn't coming with a contract extension.

The problem with that is that in this posters completely random and arbitrary ranking system a fringe A prospect is nothing special and also applies to Juulsen or Bowers type of prospects...
Best to ignore him/her.

Anyone willing to trade Timmins should watch his assist yesterday to see why that is not a good idea. That outlet pass was something else. Just imagine him springing MacKinnon like that. I am not even sure Makar could pull that off.

Lets gamble on that and his health instead of gambling on Hall and his huge contract.
Just save the assets and pay Seattle 2 1sts (exaggerated but still) to not pick one of our Ds...

 

[Ararana]

It's hard to say so I'm not going to pretend to know for sure. Karlsson got Norris who IMO is a grade A who has great development years. Of course Karlsson > Hall but supply and demand always sets the price. Will there be a bidding war? Isn't that how the Avs got the return for Duchene? It's very possible the Devils have a few teams that want him and I can see the price rising a bit with a desperate GM.

Duchene also had well over a year remaining on his contract as wasn't a true UFA at the time. No sense in arguing about it, we'll see how it plays out.

 

[hughdreamz]

If I'm the Devils I'm pushing for Timmins.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Duchene also had well over a year remaining on his contract as wasn't a true UFA at the time. No sense in arguing about it, we'll see how it plays out.

My point would of went over your head if you argued about it. The point was supply/demand and bidding war, not term left. Sakic did have time to his advantage and the Devils do not. But that does not change the supply/demand narrative and how they may or may not be a bidding war. Term matters yes but so does supply/demand. Both are big factors.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If I'm the Devils I'm pushing for Timmins.

I'd push for Newhook. But if the trade happens at the deadline, then we have a larger sample size to evaluate... especially with Timmins on how he didn't play at all last year and we only get to see 19 AHL games so far. I'm assuming those who like Timmins a lot don't care about the injury now that he has 13 pts in 19 AHL games?

 

[hughdreamz]

I'd push for Newhook. But if the trade happens at the deadline, then we have a larger sample size to evaluate... especially with Timmins on how he didn't play at all last year and we only get to see 19 AHL games so far. I'm assuming those who like Timmins a lot don't care about the injury now that he has 13 pts in 19 AHL games?

Timmins was threatening to make the team prior to his concussion and he's lighting up the AHL after making the team out of camp. As of now, he's a more sure thing than Newhook which is why I give him more value. Plus with Hischier and Hughes, they don't really need a Newhook 2-3 years down the road. A Timmins is much more valuable imo.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Given Hall's availability would this work?

Devils get:
Zadorov
Unprotected conditional first depending on Hall re-signing
Sampo Ranta

Avs get:
Hall

There's absolutely noway you're getting Hall for that offer, And you can definitely forget an extension there. If that's the best you've to offer the Devils.

 

[Blackjack]

I'd highly recommend Sakics interview he gave yesterday to Lebrun (can be found @TheAthletic)

He states that D is the hardest position to get and that you have to pretty much draft them

And to quote:

" We got Sam in the (Colorado-Nashville-Ottawa blockbuster) trade, obviously Cale, we also have Connor Timmins getting better and better, eventually Bowen. So we feel we’re in a good spot defense-wise and that’s obviously been the toughest position to get. Now, we hope we’re in a good shape there, we’re pretty happy with that D-corps that’s coming up."

Does that sound like he is really thinking long and hard about trading him?

He also is indirectly answering questions about what he might do now or at the deadline.
Lets just say I feel a lot better aboutit after reading that and don't believe there is a high chance he will give up a ton for Hall given that he especially stressed great team chemistry (which a rental Hall certainly could disrupt) and that he will only make a move if he is sure about it and if it makes sense from a price standpoint.

Thanks for posting. That doesn't sound like someone getting ready to trade one of their defensive prospects.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Timmins was threatening to make the team prior to his concussion and he's lighting up the AHL after making the team out of camp. As of now, he's a more sure thing than Newhook which is why I give him more value. Plus with Hischier and Hughes, they don't really need a Newhook 2-3 years down the road. A Timmins is much more valuable imo.

Fair to some degree. But I like Newhook a lot! Maybe because I know his game well. Timmins is doing very well in the AHL in 19 games. Lighting it up? That's tire pumping comments.

Maybe if Timmins is as good as you think, play him in a few NHL games here and there to get his feet wet and showcase him a bit? Personally, I would not be drooling over 19 AHL games. He does have good development years though but coming off an injury for an entire season is not to be shoved under the rug without being noticed. Pretty sure savy GM's and scouts would not be so premature with their evaluations.

I'm curious... How is Timmins being used in the AHL? Top pairing, PP, or PK time? Who's his typical pairing partner?

 

[hughdreamz]

Fair to some degree. But I like Newhook a lot! Maybe because I know his game well. Timmins is doing very well in the AHL in 19 games. Lighting it up? That's tire pumping comments.

Maybe if Timmins is as good as you think, play him in a few NHL games here and there to get his feet wet and showcase him a bit? Personally, I would not be drooling over 19 AHL games. He does have good development years though but coming off an injury for an entire season is not to be shoved under the rug without being noticed. Pretty sure savy GM's and scouts would not be so premature with their evaluations.

I'm curious... How is Timmins being used in the AHL? Top pairing, PP, or PK time? Who's his typical pairing partner?

Totally understandable. I've only seen bits and pieces of Timmins honestly, but he was so good in preseason and did not deserve the demotion to the AHL. I know he's just so so so damn solid. If not for his injury he'd be in the Avs top 4 right now.

I haven't seen much Newhook either, but he is just much more raw and needs to refine a lot in college.

 

[StreetHawk]

I'd highly recommend Sakics interview he gave yesterday to Lebrun (can be found @TheAthletic)

He states that D is the hardest position to get and that you have to pretty much draft them

And to quote:

" We got Sam in the (Colorado-Nashville-Ottawa blockbuster) trade, obviously Cale, we also have Connor Timmins getting better and better, eventually Bowen. So we feel we’re in a good spot defense-wise and that’s obviously been the toughest position to get. Now, we hope we’re in a good shape there, we’re pretty happy with that D-corps that’s coming up."

Does that sound like he is really thinking long and hard about trading him?

He also is indirectly answering questions about what he might do now or at the deadline.
Lets just say I feel a lot better aboutit after reading that and don't believe there is a high chance he will give up a ton for Hall given that he especially stressed great team chemistry (which a rental Hall certainly could disrupt) and that he will only make a move if he is sure about it and if it makes sense from a price standpoint.

All fair, but Sakic was a member of the 2001 Avs when they traded for Bourque the prior year and Blake that season. Lacroix went for it and landed their second cup. If you upgrade an area that your team needs, it's worth it.

Again, NJ holds the cards as Hall has no trade protection. Shero's job is to get the best return he can for the Devils, not send Hall to the best landing spot for him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Totally understandable. I've only seen bits and pieces of Timmins honestly, but he was so good in preseason and did not deserve the demotion to the AHL. I know he's just so so so damn solid. If not for his injury he'd be in the Avs top 4 right now.

I haven't seen much Newhook either, but he is just much more raw and needs to refine a lot in college.

What Newhook is doing at 18 in the NCAA is impressive. I actually value NCAA development more than CHL. CHL has to wake up and shake their heads cause other leagues have caught up and are better development leagues. Playing against men is great development. I wish the CHL would open their overagers to 6/team and 20-23 range. This creates better competition and only the good 16/17 year olds make it. The 18 and 19 year olds benefit.

 

[Tretyak 20]

Aw **** I should have said Brian Burke.

?

 

[Selzoons]

Fair to some degree. But I like Newhook a lot! Maybe because I know his game well. Timmins is doing very well in the AHL in 19 games. Lighting it up? That's tire pumping comments.

Maybe if Timmins is as good as you think, play him in a few NHL games here and there to get his feet wet and showcase him a bit? Personally, I would not be drooling over 19 AHL games. He does have good development years though but coming off an injury for an entire season is not to be shoved under the rug without being noticed. Pretty sure savy GM's and scouts would not be so premature with their evaluations.

I'm curious... How is Timmins being used in the AHL? Top pairing, PP, or PK time? Who's his typical pairing partner?

Disclaimer: I haven't watched a single Eagles game.

It's been mentioned on the Avalanche board or the prospect board that Timmins still does not get to play on the 1st PP unit.

This is all conjecture but in light of the above I doubt he gets much if any PK time and I doubt the plays top pairing minutes. Likely, 2nd pairing with little to no special teams to ease him in.

He has 2 goals, 7 assists, and is +5 in his last 8 games. All his points this year are at even strength.

It's worth mentioning that the Eagles are a low scoring team that has been ravaged by call-ups and injuries.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Disclaimer: I haven't watched a single Eagles game.

It's been mentioned on the Avalanche board or the prospect board that Timmins still does not get to play on the 1st PP unit.

This is all conjecture but in light of the above I doubt he gets much if any PK time and I doubt the plays top pairing minutes. Likely, 2nd pairing with little to no special teams to ease him in.

He has 2 goals, 7 assists, and is +5 in his last 8 games. All his points this year are at even strength.

It's worth mentioning that the Eagles are a low scoring team that has been ravaged by callups and injuries.

This is what scouts do in evaluation that fans don't get to see. I'd be curious to see the actual facts and then I might join the 19 AHL game hype bandwagon. Seems like the Eagles are a similar team to the Rocket. What's annoying is the AHL does not provide ice time stats. What's up with that?

 

[Hasbro]

?

Never trade an unprotected 1st!

 

[StreetHawk]

What Newhook is doing at 18 in the NCAA is impressive. I actually value NCAA development more than CHL. CHL has to wake up and shake their heads cause other leagues have caught up and are better development leagues. Playing against men is great development. I wish the CHL would open their overagers to 6/team and 20-23 range. This creates better competition and only the good 16/17 year olds make it. The 18 and 19 year olds benefit.

CHL is a 16-20 year old league.
NCAA is an 18-23/24 year old league.

The older players in the NCAA, much lower probability that they make the NHL. Could make the A. Top guys leave after 1 or 2 years. Mid range guys leave after 2-3. Lower tiered guys leave after obtaining their degrees.

In terms of development, CHL too much of a business IMO. At that age, maybe more practice time vs games is better.

 

[Habs Halifax]

CHL is a 16-20 year old league.
NCAA is an 18-23/24 year old league.

The older players in the NCAA, much lower probability that they make the NHL. Could make the A. Top guys leave after 1 or 2 years. Mid range guys leave after 2-3. Lower tiered guys leave after obtaining their degrees.

In terms of development, CHL too much of a business IMO. At that age, maybe more practice time vs games is better.

I have not studied it in depth but the CHL has 3 max 20 year olds and the NCAA has a much larger % of men from 20-24 range. The older players in the NCAA do have a much lower probability of making the NHL but that don't mean they are not good hockey players and more physical cause they are men. The point is overall completion in what development league you are playing in.

Markar for example was just over pt/game in the NCAA as a 20 year old and 21/34 as a 19 year old. Pretty sure he crushes the CHL with the weaker/younger players in the mix and is more like 1.5 or more pt/game.

CHL production is flawed in many cases cause of how top talent can take advantage of weaker/younger talent. I'm a Canadian and I don't like where this is heading. CHL likely thinks nothing is wrong but I can see this being a topic of discussion in future years. It's no longer the cream of the crop of being the top development league

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

If I'm the Devils I'm pushing for Timmins.

Nope Byram. We need LD more.

 

[JoemAvs]

Nope Byram. We need LD more.

Yeah but that is never happening unless Sakic completely loses his mind which seems unlikely.
Would be a very short conversation.

Maybe Dallas is desperate enough to give you Harley if you really want a LHD prospect. Trade him there!