Confirmed with Link: Avs acquire D Devon Toews from NYI for 2021 2nd and 2022 2nd

[henchman21]

To me... this Toews deal is another opportunity to get a prime age top 4D for under 5m long term. The Girard deal is going to be a great one for a long time here, Toews is that same opportunity.

 

[Balthazar]

To me... this Toews deal is another opportunity to get a prime age top 4D for under 5m long term. The Girard deal is going to be a great one for a long time here, Toews is that same opportunity.

Girard was 5 years younger and there was almost no risk with that contract though. Also I don't think Sakic wants someone who'll block Byram long term on the left side.

IMO Sakic is pushing hard for 2 or 3 years and it doesn't make that much sense for Toews.

 

[S E P H]

Girard was 5 years younger and there was almost no risk with that contract though. Also I don't think Sakic wants someone who'll block Byram long term on the left side.

IMO Sakic is pushing hard for 2 or 3 years and it doesn't make that much sense for Toews.

Graves will block Byram more than Toews, Devon is much more talented and is consistently better in all the categories that could be described as weaknesses that Graves possesses.

 

[Balthazar]

Graves will block Byram more than Toews, Devon is much more talented and is consistently better in all the categories that could be described as weaknesses that Graves possesses.

Graves is expansion draft fodder.

If we sign Toews long term he'll either block Byram in the top 4 or become an overpaid 3rd pairing defenseman.

If he was good on the right side that would change things.

 

[S E P H]

Graves is expansion draft fodder.

If we sign Toews long term he'll either block Byram in the top 4 or become an overpaid 3rd pairing defenseman.

If he was good on the right side that would change things.

If Graves is picked and I think there is a decent chance that it is him or Compher - at this point in time - then that opens your spot for Byram does it not? Toews is a perfect stop-gab defender to get where Byram can start on the bottom pairing and eventually surpass him when Devon's contract is up in four to five years no?

 

[Foppa Frossa]

Sakic is going to take Toews on a tour of the low Ball Arena.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

A 1-2 year contract is a massive L after giving up two 2nd’s.

Three years is fine if it keeps the AAV low. Anything at 4 plus years gives you Byram insurance in case things go unfortunately with his development.

 

[henchman21]

Girard was 5 years younger and there was almost no risk with that contract though. Also I don't think Sakic wants someone who'll block Byram long term on the left side.

IMO Sakic is pushing hard for 2 or 3 years and it doesn't make that much sense for Toews.

There is no risk with Toews either. He's as good of #3D as you can really ask. He can easily play on the top pairing. Plus he's only 26 with limited pro games... so by NHL standards he's a young 26. His prime will be to 30-31 and 32 he should still be a very solid top 4 guy. Right now he can be signed to a bargain deal because he doesn't have the games in the NHL to demand more. Another year or two (especially in the Avs' top 4), he's a 6.5+m guy.

 

[MaKarter]

A 1-2 year contract is a massive L after giving up two 2nd’s.

Three years is fine if it keeps the AAV low. Anything at 4 plus years gives you Byram insurance in case things go unfortunately with his development.

Perhaps overall L. But not a massive L if you win a Cup within a 1-2 year contract for Toews.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Cole will be gone in a year, that’s Byram’s roster spot. They aren’t left/right militant. As long as there are some righties in the mix and obv one is Makar they’ll be ok. Girard can play on the right fine and there’s still EJ.

3 years feels like the sweet spot for Toews.

If Seattle takes Compher I’ll eat my shoe. Keep in mind how progressive that org is shaping up to be.

 

[avsfan09]

Graves is expansion draft fodder.

If we sign Toews long term he'll either block Byram in the top 4 or become an overpaid 3rd pairing defenseman.

If he was good on the right side that would change things.

Or he could easily be traded. If he has a good deal and is a top 4 guy than I'm sure we could get good value back.

 

[McMetal]

To me... this Toews deal is another opportunity to get a prime age top 4D for under 5m long term. The Girard deal is going to be a great one for a long time here, Toews is that same opportunity.

You don't think there's a lack of track record for such a late blooming player that gives you pause on that? Girard was 21, Toews is five years older and only has 1.5 seasons of NHL track record. Is Toews really THAT much of a guaranteed slam dunk to not be another Zaitsev?

 

[henchman21]

You don't think there's a lack of track record for such a late blooming player that gives you pause on that? Girard was 21, Toews is five years older and only has 1.5 seasons of NHL track record. Is Toews really THAT much of a guaranteed slam dunk to not be another Zaitsev?

Yeah... I think Toews is a great defensemen. I really believe he is a very solid #3D right now, and in a system that allows him more freedom and with a better partner, he's going to shine. If the Avs go short term, he plays his way out of Colorado as he will end up demanding too much. I've been a fan of his since he was in college. He's a gem of a hockey player.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

There is no risk with Toews either. He's as good of #3D as you can really ask. He can easily play on the top pairing. Plus he's only 26 with limited pro games... so by NHL standards he's a young 26. His prime will be to 30-31 and 32 he should still be a very solid top 4 guy. Right now he can be signed to a bargain deal because he doesn't have the games in the NHL to demand more. Another year or two (especially in the Avs' top 4), he's a 6.5+m guy.

This.


We're probably talking another 2-3 years at minimum before Byram is even pushing Toews for his spot.


I know Islanders fans came in here and gave the whole spiel about Toews being good but not great and that he was the 5th Dman on the depth charts among that group... I dont like to doubt a fan base evaluating it's own players, but they are flat out wrong on that Toews evaluation.


He was a phenomenal Dman for them, IMO the best most consistent of that entire group, he made every Dman on that team better when they played with him and worse when they didn't.

I think Pullock probably overtook him by seasons end as the best overall D on that team... But Toews was being underrated by Isles fans a lot after that trade, likely in part to try and help come to grips with losing him.


He's a high, high end #3D who defends exceptionally well, and also has some strong offensive instincts as well.


We really need to get over this obsession about "blocking" Byram. We're a cup contending team who's sole goal these next 2 years at least should be(And clearly is) to win the cup. Getting Toews signed on a 4-6 year deal for under 5M would be a huge step in winning the cup these next 2 years but also potentially extending that cup window into a 4th or 5th year.


If Byram reaches the upside some here think he has and he forces a tough decision on Defense, then we cross that bridge when it happens. For now you have to do everything you can to get Toews on a 4+ year deal.

 

[henchman21]

I wouldn't say Toews was better than Pulock... but Pulock is a supremely underrated defender too. He's a low end #1 who has really rounded into a great hockey player over the last few seasons. The Isles as a team have been drafting and developing some great defensemen. They take their time with them, but they after a couple years in the minors they really can bring them up and let them shine. I still look back on letting Mayfield pass through waivers in 2016 as a mistake.

 

[Foppa2118]

So let me get the straight. Toews is "only 26" and will hit his prime at 31, because he was playing in the AHL instead of the NHL?

But if the Islanders would have rushed him into the NHL like Buffalo did to Zadorov, then he would be done developing at 23 just because he was in the NHL instead of the AHL?

So if you're a 30 something journeyman in the AHL, you're still developing because you're not in the NHL?

That makes no sense whatsoever. We're just changing the argument to fit players we like/dislike.

Toews has more room to grow his game, especially with a new team that's better suited to his style, but can we at least try to be consistent in the narratives that we repeat daily here?

 

[PAZ]

A 1-2 year contract is a massive L after giving up two 2nd’s.

Three years is fine if it keeps the AAV low. Anything at 4 plus years gives you Byram insurance in case things go unfortunately with his development.

I don't agree with this assessment.

These next few years will be our window before we have to sell off a few pieces, with this year having the most cap flexibility to add a few pieces which Sakic did with Saad + toews. You won't be able to find a much better player than Toews at the deadline with 2 2nds. Even if Toews is just here for 1-2 years, that's a win considering the price Sakic paid for a top 4 defender.

If we acquired a similar player that would be available this deadline (i.e. Murray if healthy) he would cost at least a 2nd + and I don't think anyone would complain about that price or call it a massive L, regardless of what happened in the playoffs.

 

[EdAVSfan]

So let me get the straight. Toews is "only 26" and will hit his prime at 31, because he was playing in the AHL instead of the NHL?

But if the Islanders would have rushed him into the NHL like Buffalo did to Zadorov, then he would be done developing at 23 just because he was in the NHL instead of the AHL?

So if you're a 30 something journeyman in the AHL, you're still developing because you're not in the NHL?

That makes no sense whatsoever. We're just changing the argument to fit players we like/dislike.

Toews has more room to grow his game, especially with a new team that's better suited to his style, but can we at least try to be consistent in the narratives that we repeat daily here?

You do understand that those same people can think that Zadorov’s prime is yet to come as well, but that they simply have very little faith of much improvement?

the prime seems to be synonymous with plateauing.
Zadorov may have better years ahead, but after so many games played at the NhL level, some people don’t believe the increase is all that much. Are they correct? Who knows? It’s their opinion.

The same person can equally think that Toews has more to give. Doesn’t mean they expect him to make massive increases in his quality of play. It could simple mean they’re hoping and expecting a slight uptick in play during his « prime » years.

clearly though, they have a higher base appreciation for Toews’ game than they do Zadorov.

I’m not sure why you have to be so confrontational all the time about the « games played by a dman » factor that people use. Is there not even an inkling of possibility for you to accept that as you move up in difficulty of leagues, there is a potential to learn more and grow more as a player. If Mackinnon played his entire adult career in the AHL, would he be as good as he is now in the NhL at the same point? Having more time playing at a higher difficulty where other players, opponents and teammates challenge you leads to improvement.

There’s a certain level of playing up to your competition that people acknowledge. Some people will accept more of it, some less. These posters seem to simply believe that after certain amount of NHL games played, there is less and less probability that a player will continue to make improvements. Or that the improvements are not drastic. Are there exceptions? Of course.

But i see no inconsistency. I see the opposite actually.

 

[henchman21]

Toews really isn't getting much (if any) better, he's getting more ice in a system that he can succeed in while playing with Makar. His reputation is going to jump a lot simply because of recognition. Toews is a very smart hockey player who is already a very solid #3 and showed signs he could be more, just stuck on a deep team. Z is a dumb dumb who was handed every opportunity and could never grab a role... he's an inconsistent 5 who can maybe claw out more in Colliton's man system since he doesn't have to think.

 

[Avsboy]

Toews really isn't getting much (if any) better, he's getting more ice in a system that he can succeed in while playing with Makar. His reputation is going to jump a lot simply because of recognition. Toews is a very smart hockey player who is already a very solid #3 and showed signs he could be more, just stuck on a deep team. Z is a dumb dumb who was handed every opportunity and could never grab a role... he's an inconsistent 5 who can maybe claw out more in Colliton's man system since he doesn't have to think.

There's no doubt Toews>>Zadorov. But how long will he sign for? Many players just want to hit the market.

 

[Foppa2118]

You do understand that those same people can think that Zadorov’s prime is yet to come as well, but that they simply have very little faith of much improvement?

the prime seems to be synonymous with plateauing.
Zadorov may have better years ahead, but after so many games played at the NhL level, some people don’t believe the increase is all that much. Are they correct? Who knows? It’s their opinion.

The same person can equally think that Toews has more to give. Doesn’t mean they expect him to make massive increases in his quality of play. It could simple mean they’re hoping and expecting a slight uptick in play during his « prime » years.

clearly though, they have a higher base appreciation for Toews’ game than they do Zadorov.

I’m not sure why you have to be so confrontational all the time about the « games played by a dman » factor that people use. Is there not even an inkling of possibility for you to accept that as you move up in difficulty of leagues, there is a potential to learn more and grow more as a player. If Mackinnon played his entire adult career in the AHL, would he be as good as he is now in the NhL at the same point?

There’s a certain level of playing up to your competition that people acknowledge. Some people will accept more of it, some less. These posters seem to simply believe that after certain amount of NHL games played, there is less and less probability that a player will continue to make improvements. Or that the improvements are not drastic. Are there exceptions? Of course.

But i see no inconsistency. I see the opposite actually.

I don't think you're characterizing it accurately.

What happened was Zadorov was understandably being criticized for his poor play and inconsistency when he was 22 and 23 on the Avalanche. It was pointed out by myself and others that defenseman are continually developing into their mid 20's, as evidenced by Graves and even Toews himself not making the NHL until they were 25.

The counterargument for that by Zadorov's detractors was that he was a finished product and done developing because he was 23 years old and played 300 NHL games. Meaning that there was some mysterious factor that ended a players development in the NHL, but kept it going in the AHL. Which makes no sense to me.

This resulted in the same bad joke repeated daily about Zadorov "only being 23/24/25."

Now Toews comes in as a guy who spent three years in college, then spent three years in the AHL because he wasn't ready for the NHL yet, and didn't make the NHL until he was 25. But because people like Toews, instead of disliking him like Zadorov, the argument has shifted to him being "only 26."

With the very poor argument that because he wasn't rushed into the NHL like Zadorov, that apparently allows him to continue developing indefinitely.

Whether you're in the NHL or the AHL doesn't matter. What matters is however long it takes a specific individual to develop both mentally, physically, and emotionally to play their best. Sometimes a defenseman develops early, and sometimes they develop later into their mid to late 20's.

 

[henchman21]

There's no doubt Toews>>Zadorov. But how long will he sign for? Many players just want to hit the market.

I'm saying find an acceptable number for long-term. Every player has a price, and I can't see Toews turning down 4.75x6

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Yep Toews isn't getting better. He already is what he will continue to be, which is that of a real high end #3D that can play top pairing if needed.


He'll just continue to refine his game and get a little cleaner in that role as he gets more games under his belt and more accustomed to that role.


If one cant understand the difference between a 25 year old Zadorov who has had 400 games of NHL experience and zero progression... And a 26 year old Toews with 125 games of NHL experience who has went from a call up #7/8Dman to a high end, 20+ minute a night #3D in his NHL stint...

 

[Foppa2118]

Yep Toews isn't getting better. He already is what he will continue to be, which is that of a real high end #3D that can play top pairing if needed.


He'll just continue to refine his game and get a little cleaner in that role as he gets more games under his belt and more accustomed to that role.


If one cant understand the difference between a 25 year old Zadorov who has had 400 games of NHL experience and zero progression... And a 26 year old Toews with 125 games of NHL experience who has went from a call up #7/8Dman to a high end, 20+ minute a night #3D in his NHL stint...

I have yet to see anyone even attempt to make an argument for why a player can keep developing after 300 AHL games, but they're done developing with 300 NHL games.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I don't agree with this assessment.

These next few years will be our window before we have to sell off a few pieces, with this year having the most cap flexibility to add a few pieces which Sakic did with Saad + toews. You won't be able to find a much better player than Toews at the deadline with 2 2nds. Even if Toews is just here for 1-2 years, that's a win considering the price Sakic paid for a top 4 defender.

If we acquired a similar player that would be available this deadline (i.e. Murray if healthy) he would cost at least a 2nd + and I don't think anyone would complain about that price or call it a massive L, regardless of what happened in the playoffs.

I can revise to a minor L.

I just think a 1-2 year contract would be less than ideal for a 26-year old top-4 defenceman who will be a UFA when his contract expires.