Auston Matthews or David Pastrnak: Who has the better chance at winning the Rocket Richard Trophy?

[WillTheThrill]

So mathews is the best goal scorer that has never been first in the league for goals. And pasta and ovi are just PP specialist, oh and i nearly forgot, its the refs fault.

Although this may be true, he is first in goals per game since entering the NHL in 2016.

 

[koyvoo]

Although this may be true, he is first in goals per game since entering the NHL in 2016.

Problem is many people decide to change what they prefer to track stats when it fits their narrative.

As an example, if one chooses to use pace, as you did above, that’s fine as long as they are consistent with it. If using pace though, one can no longer day that Matthews was the second best goal scorer in his rookie season. Going by goals per game, he was fifth, and going by goals per game, he wasn’t even the best goal scoring rookie in his rookie season, as Laine paced better. I don’t mind people using one or the other. It’s their own personal interpretation. It’s just annoying when people use one or the other when it better fits their argument.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Problem is many people decide to change what they prefer to track stats when it fits their narrative.

As an example, if one chooses to use pace, as you did above, that’s fine as long as they are consistent with it. If using pace though, one can no longer day that Matthews was the second best goal scorer in his rookie season. Going by goals per game, he was fifth, and going by goals per game, he wasn’t even the best goal scoring rookie in his rookie season, as Laine paced better. I don’t mind people using one or the other. It’s their own personal interpretation. It’s just annoying when people use one or the other when it better fits their argument.

Just curious why can't someone use pace like Matthews goal totals since coming into the NHL during the 2016-2017 season and not also say how he lead rookies in goal scoring in his 1st season? No matter how you look at it Matthews 40 goals lead all rookies. Anyone saying Laine paced better sounds bitter because he didn't win the Calder due to him suffering a concussion, which Matthews had nothing to do with.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So mathews is the best goal scorer that has never been first in the league for goals. And pasta and ovi are just PP specialist, oh and i nearly forgot, its the refs fault.

Matthews might have not yet finished 1st in goals scored in a season, however his 40 goal rookie season when he finished tied for 2nd was most goals scored by a rookie since Alex Ovechkin had 52 goals during the 2005-2006 season.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Just curious why can't someone use pace like Matthews goal totals since coming into the NHL during the 2016-2017 season and not also say how he lead rookies in goal scoring in his 1st season? No matter how you look at it Matthews 40 goals lead all rookies. Anyone saying Laine paced better sounds bitter because he didn't win the Calder due to him suffering a concussion, which Matthews had nothing to do with.

Swing and a miss. You’re not getting the point.

You’re one of the ones that chooses pace or raw totals to prop Matthews.

You’re basically proving his point.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Swing and a miss. You’re not getting the point.

You’re one of the ones that chooses pace or raw totals to prop Matthews.

You’re basically proving his point.

Each time I have specifically mentioned Matthews stats I use his actual numbers like when he scored 40 goals as a rookie. So I never mentioned goals per 60 or anything like that.

However it's also true that Matthews has been leading in goals per game since his rookie season and no one can deny that fact, if it's a stat they want to use.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Each time I have specifically mentioned Matthews stats I use his actual numbers like when he scored 40 goals as a rookie. So I never mentioned goals per 60 or anything like that.

However it's also true that Matthews has been leading in goals per game since his rookie season and no one can deny that fact, if it's a stat they want to use.

You literally use goal pace in other threads.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You literally use goal pace in other threads.

If I have done that I talked about Matthews stats if he didn't miss any games when he was injured the last 2 seasons. Not once have I said despite him scoring x amount of goals, because of goals per 60 his real total should be this specific number.

 

[LilySmoov]

Problem is many people decide to change what they prefer to track stats when it fits their narrative.

As an example, if one chooses to use pace, as you did above, that’s fine as long as they are consistent with it. If using pace though, one can no longer day that Matthews was the second best goal scorer in his rookie season. Going by goals per game, he was fifth, and going by goals per game, he wasn’t even the best goal scoring rookie in his rookie season, as Laine paced better. I don’t mind people using one or the other. It’s their own personal interpretation. It’s just annoying when people use one or the other when it better fits their argument.

Problem is your attempt at a counterargument glosses over the "since 2016" part. We're talking a sample of over 250 games spanning 3 and a half years.

 

[34]

I knew that. My point was despite Pastrnak playing all 82 games in 2018 and Matthews playing only in 62 games, it's remarkable that he finished only 1 goal behind him.

Very impressive. Matthews played 20 less games and still matched Pasta.

It should be a real shoot out between the 2 of them this season.

 

[pcruz]

People, stop arguing about Matthews.
His rookie season, playing all 82 games with 2 other rookies, scored 40 goals and 69 points.

Won the Calder trophy.
What was said:

“Can’t even hit 70 points, didn’t deserve the trophy.”
“Weak competition for the Calder”
“Calder is not even considered real hardware”

Matthews scores at a 40 goal pace the next 2 seasons shortened by injuries. 34 and 37 goals, not 20 in 41 games or anything like that, and what did people say?

“Brazil is better, Pettersson is better, Marner is better, etc..”
“Barely hit the 70 point mark, come back when he hits the 80 point mark”
“Barely a point per game”
“Can’t stay healthy”

This year, 34 goals in 47 games (whatever it actually is), comfortably in the top 10 in scoring, 2 goals back for Richard. Surpasses the point per game mark for the career. Finally scores a Hat Trick (apparently 4 is not good enough to count as a game in which someone scores 3 goals).

If he wins the Rocket, the narrative will be that it was the weakest Richard races ever and that he is the least deserving winner since Perry.

All white noise. Use it for putting yourself to sleep and pay no mind to it all.

 

[bobholly39]

People, stop arguing about Matthews.
His rookie season, playing all 82 games with 2 other rookies, scored 40 goals and 69 points.

Won the Calder trophy.
What was said:

“Can’t even hit 70 points, didn’t deserve the trophy.”
“Weak competition for the Calder”
“Calder is not even considered real hardware”

Matthews scores at a 40 goal pace the next 2 seasons shortened by injuries. 34 and 37 goals, not 20 in 41 games or anything like that, and what did people say?

“Brazil is better, Pettersson is better, Marner is better, etc..”
“Barely hit the 70 point mark, come back when he hits the 80 point mark”
“Barely a point per game”
“Can’t stay healthy”

This year, 34 goals in 47 games (whatever it actually is), comfortably in the top 10 in scoring, 2 goals back for Richard. Surpasses the point per game mark for the career. Finally scores a Hat Trick (apparently 4 is not good enough to count as a game in which someone scores 3 goals).

If he wins the Rocket, the narrative will be that it was the weakest Richard races ever and that he is the least deserving winner since Perry.

All white noise. Use it for putting yourself to sleep and pay no mind to it all.

Agreed on the bolded - Matthews is lucky Crosby was injured this season. Otherwise he'd have easily swept the Rocket and all other trophies. Matthews is literally imitating Perry - taking advantage of a Crosby injury to shine, just like Perry in 2011.

 

[daver]

The whole GPG thing needs context. Matthews played partials seasons in 17/18 and 18/19. You can't compare his GPG in those years to players who played full seasons, it makes sense to compare his GPG numbers to his peers after the same amount of games Matthews played.

He would have been 3rd or 4th in GPG those seasons under those circumstances.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If Matthews actully hits 59 it will be him

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Agreed on the bolded - Matthews is lucky Crosby was injured this season. Otherwise he'd have easily swept the Rocket and all other trophies. Matthews is literally imitating Perry - taking advantage of a Crosby injury to shine, just like Perry in 2011.

Matthews is. significantly better Perry ever was

 

[X66]

Since Matthews joined the league he's been...

#2 in goals for
#1 in even strength goals, this isn't even a competition, no one is in his league here. Has 3 more goals than McDavid(who is 2nd) in 31 less games lol.
#1 in goals per 60, also not close(players that played at least 150 games)
AND...

116th in PP time in that stretch.
141 in AVERAGE PP time in that stretch

Everyone take that in.

He's a beast that everyone should be drooling over because goals are the most exciting thing in the game, but people let their hate and bias get in the way of all of this.

 

[daver]

Since Matthews joined the league he's been...

#2 in goals for
#1 in even strength goals, this isn't even a competition, no one is in his league here. Has 3 more goals than McDavid(who is 2nd) in 31 less games lol.
#1 in goals per 60, also not close(players that played at least 150 games)
AND...

116th in PP time in that stretch.
141 in AVERAGE PP time in that stretch

Everyone take that in.

He's a beast that everyone should be drooling over because goals are the most exciting thing in the game, but people let their hate and bias get in the way of all of this.

Pasta has a higher GPG since the start of last season. He is a strong choice to win.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

The whole GPG thing needs context. Matthews played partials seasons in 17/18 and 18/19. You can't compare his GPG in those years to players who played full seasons, it makes sense to compare his GPG numbers to his peers after the same amount of games Matthews played.

He would have been 3rd or 4th in GPG those seasons under those circumstances.

What? Using goals per game is literally only useful for situations when players have a different number of games played. Why would you think we should only use it to compare players who have had the same numbers of games played?

 

[daver]

What? Using goals per game is literally only useful for situations when players have a different number of games played. Why would you think we should only use it to compare players who have had the same numbers of games played?

I am saying GPG needs context as a player's GPG tends to down in a season with more games played. It is an advantage for Matthews for his GPG after 62 games to be compared with a player who played 82 games.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I am saying GPG needs context as a player's GPG tends to down in a season with more games played. It is an advantage for Matthews for his GPG after 62 games to be compared with a player who played 82 games.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows there's a gap in games played, so that context is not needed. Nobody would use goals per game to discuss two players who both played 82 games

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

What? Using goals per game is literally only useful for situations when players have a different number of games played. Why would you think we should only use it to compare players who have had the same numbers of games played?

I'd argue its usefulness at comparing two players with different games played is dubious at best.

Player A - 15 goals in 20 games before getting hurt
Player B - 45 goals in 82 games

In reality, Player B had the better season because he was able to produce a certain amount over the full 82 games and not rely on "pace" as his argument. But Player A would end up leading in goals per game even though there's no proof he would have kept up that kind of pace all season.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I'd argue its usefulness at comparing two players with different games played is dubious at best.

Player A - 15 goals in 20 games before getting hurt
Player B - 45 goals in 82 games

In reality, Player B had the better season because he was able to produce a certain amount over the full 82 games and not rely on "pace" as his argument. But Player A would end up leading in goals per game even though there's no proof he would have kept up that kind of pace all season.

It's meant to be a descriptive stat. It doesn't mean player A is a lock for ~60 goals if they played more, but it does mean they were better at scoring goals in their sample than player B was. There's also a pretty massive difference between 20 games and 60+ games for Matthews' previous two seasons, or 260 games if you want to look at his whole career.

When would you use goals per game then if not to compensate a player for something they had no control over, never?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's meant to be a descriptive stat. It doesn't mean player A is a lock for ~60 goals if they played more, but it does mean they were better at scoring goals in their sample than player B was. There's also a pretty massive difference between 20 games and 60+ games for Matthews' previous two seasons, or 260 games if you want to look at his whole career.

When would you use goals per game then if not to compensate a player for something they had no control over, never?

Before you bring up Matthews, let me just say it wasn't in relation to the discussion about him and his goals per game. It was a general thought on the reliability on the goals per game stat when comparing two players with different games played.

As for the latter, when the actual totals are at least close enough for the games played to be a factor. For instance, in a discussion of who is the better scorer in a case where one player scores 50 goals in all 82 games and another player scores 48 goals in 75 games, that would be a good time to factor in goals per game because they were close enough that the extra 7 games should be factored in.

My issue is when goals per game is used to compensate for missing 20 games and "pacing" for more goals than someone who played 82 games.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Since Matthews joined the league he's been...

#2 in goals for
#1 in even strength goals, this isn't even a competition, no one is in his league here. Has 3 more goals than McDavid(who is 2nd) in 31 less games lol.
#1 in goals per 60, also not close(players that played at least 150 games)
AND...

116th in PP time in that stretch.
141 in AVERAGE PP time in that stretch

Everyone take that in.

He's a beast that everyone should be drooling over because goals are the most exciting thing in the game, but people let their hate and bias get in the way of all of this.

Who knows what Matthews power play time would have been if Babcock had kept his line out for than just 1:00 minute.

 

[LeafsNation75]

People, stop arguing about Matthews.
His rookie season, playing all 82 games with 2 other rookies, scored 40 goals and 69 points.

Won the Calder trophy.
What was said:

“Can’t even hit 70 points, didn’t deserve the trophy.”
“Weak competition for the Calder”
“Calder is not even considered real hardware”

Matthews scores at a 40 goal pace the next 2 seasons shortened by injuries. 34 and 37 goals, not 20 in 41 games or anything like that, and what did people say?

“Brazil is better, Pettersson is better, Marner is better, etc..”
“Barely hit the 70 point mark, come back when he hits the 80 point mark”
“Barely a point per game”
“Can’t stay healthy”

This year, 34 goals in 47 games (whatever it actually is), comfortably in the top 10 in scoring, 2 goals back for Richard. Surpasses the point per game mark for the career. Finally scores a Hat Trick (apparently 4 is not good enough to count as a game in which someone scores 3 goals).

If he wins the Rocket, the narrative will be that it was the weakest Richard races ever and that he is the least deserving winner since Perry.

All white noise. Use it for putting yourself to sleep and pay no mind to it all.

You forgot to include that when Matthews won the Calder Trophy some people said Patrick Laine deserved it more since he was 7 months younger and he would have had more goals if he never missed any games due to suffering a concussion.