Auston Matthews Now Vs Peak Mats Sundin?

[SuperScript29]

It's close and Matthews will be better imo, but for now it's still Sundin.

 

[SENSational]

Honestly it's really close; Sundin was the epitome of consistency. Matthews right now is on a trajectory to be the better player, but if you're giving me peak Sundin right now and knowing how good of a player he will be right until he retires...I'd probably take Mats.

 

[McVespa99]

Matthews. Sundin was a good player but nothing special. Matthews shot is special so that puts him ahead of Sundin.

 

[Holymakinaw]

It's close and Matthews will be better imo, but for now it's still Sundin.

Oh so you mean it's not just me who feels this way? Isn't that just so strange?

I think some younger kids around here will always go with the "current" player, and they forget that some guys from the past were just as good, if not better, than what's out there today.

I'm no Sundin lover at all. I'd prefer a peak Dougie Gilmour ANY DAY, over Mats or Auston. But to bristle at the opinion that Mats could be considered "better" at his peak, is just ludicrous. And to compare only points or awards is also silly. You just had to have watched them both play the game of hockey to know the answer. Some disagree and will go with Auston. Great. But no need to get all excited about it.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

Mats had a lot of average wingers.

I remember that being a serious topic of discussion throughout his prime until Mogilny entered the picture. The guy did a lot with below-par help on the wings.

I think Matthews is a bigger game breaker but Mats was special too.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Matthews.

Sundin made a career out of playing second-fiddle to the League's best and his major accomplishment was the 2006 Olympics...where Forsberg admitted they cheated by match fixing.

 

[pcruz]

Voted for Mats.


For now.

At his absolute best, Mats was basically what Matthews is now (lesser goal scorer, but better creator), but just a little more well rounded.

If Matthews had finished last season and played a full 82 game season this year, I would almost definitely have changed that.
He would have continued to improve and the line between these 2 is so thin that this year over year improvement would likely have changed my options based on those extra 40 games.

 

[The Podium]

Easily Matthews

Sundin never really had a high peak, just a consistent top 15 player in the league. His longevity was what was most impressive.

Career may go to Sundin when all is said and done (doubtful), but Matthews right now is a significantly better player than Sundin at his peak.

 

[pcruz]

Sundin's peak in his career was taking an 8th place team and absolutely wiping the floor with The Mighty Senators.

We could call up Spezza and ask, he was in the organization at the time!

After all that, though.




500th goal.
Overtime.
Shorthanded.
Hat-trick.


Also, from Wikipedia: One of three players (Marcel Dionne, Jaromír Jágr) to record at least 20 goals in each of his first 17 NHL seasons

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you think Matthews is a top 5 player right now, then why did you vote for Sundin in this poll? Sundin was never a top 5 player in the NHL at any point in his career.

Apparently elite talent the in the NHL was far superior back when the talent pool was smaller.

 

[pcruz]

Matthews.

Sundin made a career out of playing second-fiddle to the League's best and his major accomplishment was the 2006 Olympics...where Forsberg admitted they cheated by match fixing.

A team with Forsberg and Lidstrom, in the Olympics, that was captained by neither of them?
Not captained by an older and therefore more revered player, but by one of their peers, a player in the same part of his career.

That player is what you consider to be second fiddle?

 

[bobholly39]

Hart finishes isn't always the most accurate way to quantify a peak, but it gives a good idea.

Matt Sundin's best hart finish was an 8th place in 2002 - and this in a very weak year for talent in the league. (Sakic down year, Forsberg injured, Lemieux injured, Jagr down year, etc).

I know the season isn't over yet - but I tentatively have Matthews as 2nd place in the Hart race this year with ~10 games to go. I'd be shocked if he doesn't finish at least top 5 though. And this is a season with more competition at the top than 2002 was.

Sundin's strength was his consistency, not necessarily his peak. I prefer Matthews.

 

[NyQuil]

Sundin's peak in his career was taking an 8th place team and absolutely wiping the floor with The Mighty Senators.

We could call up Spezza and ask, he was in the organization at the time!

Basically you're saying that beating one team in the playoffs is the zenith of his NHL accomplishments.

That's the standard that Matthews has to overcome.

Meanwhile, Spezza actually led the NHL playoffs in scoring (tied with Alfie and Heatley) in a Stanley Cup Final berth.

Maybe he could call Sundin up and tell him what it's like to play in the 4th round.

Anyway, Mats is a fine player but I'd think any honest Leaf fan would admit that if Auston Matthews has a career like Sundin it would be regarded as a missed opportunity.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Oh so you mean it's not just me who feels this way? Isn't that just so strange?

I think some younger kids around here will always go with the "current" player, and they forget that some guys from the past were just as good, if not better, than what's out there today.

I'm no Sundin lover at all. I'd prefer a peak Dougie Gilmour ANY DAY, over Mats or Auston. But to bristle at the opinion that Mats could be considered "better" at his peak, is just ludicrous. And to compare only points or awards is also silly. You just had to have watched them both play the game of hockey to know the answer. Some disagree and will go with Auston. Great. But no need to get all excited about it.

Been watching 5 decades of Leafs. Prime Gilmour is hands down the best player I have seen in Blue and White. Only a two year period though. Barring injury (and assuming he stays), Matthews is going to obliterate club records. His goal scoring is generational (this from someone who doesn't use that word), his D is looking very good. I'd take Matthews over Mats.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Sundin's peak in his career was taking an 8th place team and absolutely wiping the floor with The Mighty Senators.

We could call up Spezza and ask, he was in the organization at the time!

After all that, though.




500th goal.
Overtime.
Shorthanded.
Hat-trick.


Also, from Wikipedia: One of three players (Marcel Dionne, Jaromír Jágr) to record at least 20 goals in each of his first 17 NHL seasons

One of my favourite goals. Probably one of the most epic milestone goals you'll get.

 

[jbeck5]

Sundin in toronto mostly played with scrubs. I think Matthews is great and will probably be better. But the biggest complaint about sundin's time in Toronto was he never had wingers. Hyman on one side and marner on the other would have been great.

Lol what? The leafs had plenty of great wingers over the years.

I'll list notable wingers that played for Toronto at one point or another during sundin's leafs tenure.

Dave Andreychuk (219 pts in 223gp)
Mike Gartner (35 goal season)
Wendel Clark (30 goal in 65gp season)
Sergei Berezin (37 goal season)
Steve Thomas (73 point season)
Gary Roberts (almost ppg playoff player)
Alexander Mogilny (166pts in 176gp)
Owen Nolan (60 points in 79gp in dpe)

Not to mention often having a good 1-2 punch at center with guys like Doug Gilmour, Joe Nieuwendyk, Jason Allison, etc.

It's not like he had hacks with him. Toronto had one of the biggest payrolls. Not to mention ~hall of fame goalies in potvin, cujo and belfour which allowed them to focus more on offense when you have a trusted goalie.

 

[bobholly39]

Been watching 5 decades of Leafs. Prime Gilmour is hands down the best player I have seen in Blue and White. Only a two year period though. Barring injury (and assuming he stays), Matthews is going to obliterate club records. His goal scoring is generational (this from someone who doesn't use that word), his D is looking very good. I'd take Matthews over Mats.

To the bolded - I agree with you sort of, and I also don't use that word.

Based on his start, I'd tentatively say there's a ~90% likelihood he surpasses 600 goals, and a ~50-75% chance he surpasses 700. 700 in today's era, is getting close to all-time best level adjusted for era (minus Ovi).

Clearly - behind Ovechkin. He hasn't shown to have the overall peak level of Ovechkin, but mostly Ovechkin is still winning rockets and scoring 50+ in his late 30s. That's insane, and no reason to expect Matthews to do anything similar. But even without that, those 600-700+ goals target seem very reasonable.

Matthews ~ Stamkos, until injuries hit Stamkos big time. Stamkos too was headed to that ~600-700+ goal territory, but injuries derailed him.

Barring major injuries - I think Matthews will hit it.

Generational goal-scorer, potentially yes

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

To the bolded - I agree with you sort of, and I also don't use that word.

Based on his start, I'd tentatively say there's a ~90% likelihood he surpasses 600 goals, and a ~50-75% chance he surpasses 700. 700 in today's era, is getting close to all-time best level adjusted for era (minus Ovi).

Clearly - behind Ovechkin. He hasn't shown to have the overall peak level of Ovechkin, but mostly Ovechkin is still winning rockets and scoring 50+ in his late 30s. That's insane, and no reason to expect Matthews to do anything similar. But even without that, those 600-700+ goals target seem very reasonable.

Matthews ~ Stamkos, until injuries hit Stamkos big time. Stamkos too was headed to that ~600-700+ goal territory, but injuries derailed him.

Barring major injuries - I think Matthews will hit it.

Generational goal-scorer, potentially yes

Barring injury and getting rid of these stupid shortened seasons, there is a very real possibility he ends up between 5th - 10th all time.

The biggest thing with being "generational" is doing it year after year. When you see that, it isn't fluke and he's also done it with a lot of lesser linemates (earlier in his career). His biggest issue versus an OV has been usage. His numbers are off the charts and now that he's getting the usage, he's not only maintaining his production (leads the league P60) but you are also seeing the raw numbers reflect it.

 

[SuperScript29]

Oh so you mean it's not just me who feels this way? Isn't that just so strange?

I think some younger kids around here will always go with the "current" player, and they forget that some guys from the past were just as good, if not better, than what's out there today.

I'm no Sundin lover at all. I'd prefer a peak Dougie Gilmour ANY DAY, over Mats or Auston. But to bristle at the opinion that Mats could be considered "better" at his peak, is just ludicrous. And to compare only points or awards is also silly. You just had to have watched them both play the game of hockey to know the answer. Some disagree and will go with Auston. Great. But no need to get all excited about it.

Yea I'm an old geezer lol, well not that old but let's just say that I've watched the likes of Sundin since the early 90s.

I know his best season was with Quebec, but for people who haven't watched they don't understand how tight the game was during the late 90s and early 2000s. Teams playing the trap, very physical hockey, little to no calls, and the two line pass. Scoring 70/80 points in that era meant a lot more than today's 70/80 points.

 

[authentic]

Voted for Mats.


For now.

At his absolute best, Mats was basically what Matthews is now (lesser goal scorer, but better creator), but just a little more well rounded.

If Matthews had finished last season and played a full 82 game season this year, I would almost definitely have changed that.
He would have continued to improve and the line between these 2 is so thin that this year over year improvement would likely have changed my options based on those extra 40 games.

There were only 70 games and he played them all. Also no, at his absolute best Sundin was never what Matthews is currently, unless you're taking Sundin's points per game and comparing it to Matthews goals per game this season when healthy.

 

[authentic]

To the bolded - I agree with you sort of, and I also don't use that word.

Based on his start, I'd tentatively say there's a ~90% likelihood he surpasses 600 goals, and a ~50-75% chance he surpasses 700. 700 in today's era, is getting close to all-time best level adjusted for era (minus Ovi).

Clearly - behind Ovechkin. He hasn't shown to have the overall peak level of Ovechkin, but mostly Ovechkin is still winning rockets and scoring 50+ in his late 30s. That's insane, and no reason to expect Matthews to do anything similar. But even without that, those 600-700+ goals target seem very reasonable.

Matthews ~ Stamkos, until injuries hit Stamkos big time. Stamkos too was headed to that ~600-700+ goal territory, but injuries derailed him.

Barring major injuries - I think Matthews will hit it.

Generational goal-scorer, potentially yes

His goals per game is higher than any center in NHL history besides the big 2. Short career so far yes, but even comparing at the same point in time and adjusting for era Matthews would be ahead of everyone else.

 

[authentic]

Matthews has 30 goals in 30 nearly healthy games this season, and has 64 in his last 82, people saying Sundin are off their rocker.

 

[bobholly39]

His goals per game is higher than any center in NHL history besides the big 2. Short career so far yes, but even comparing at the same point in time and adjusting for era Matthews would be ahead of everyone else.

I mean I wouldn't go that far. This is Matthew's age 23 season.

After Ovechkin's age 23 season, he had 219 goals in 324 games, or 0.68 goals per game
After Stamkos's age 23 season, he had 233 goals in 410 games, or 0.57 goals per game
As of today (Matthew's age 23 season, almost done), he has 191 goals in 324 games, or 0.59 goals per game

I assume by "big 2" you meant Gretzky/Lemieux. But he's also behind Ovechkin - and really close head to head with Stamkos (and Stamkos played in lower scoring years).

 

[Garthinater]

Did sundin ever have a winger of marners skill, plus a jt level center and another high skilled winger?

I'll say sundin for now but likely to change soon.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

A team with Forsberg and Lidstrom, in the Olympics, that was captained by neither of them?
Not captained by an older and therefore more revered player, but by one of their peers, a player in the same part of his career.

That player is what you consider to be second fiddle?

I'll take a guess and say that, in 2006, both Forsberg and Lidstrom from had far less experience being a team captain...and that's the main reason Sundin inherited the role.