Atlanta Thrashers

[Killion]

I was told I was a good fan for supporting the team up until the end. I don't feel like a good fan. I feel like a chump.

Yep... good old ASG. As Gomez Addams once bespoke, I love a man with integrity, I wish I knew one.

 

[NSHPreds1835]

This team and it's fans never had a chance. Unwanted first by Time/Warner, they were only interested in Ted's media empire, and later by ASG who only wanted the arena and the Hawks; this team was on life support from it's inception.

ASG did a marvelous job of allowing the franchise to sink into mediocrity while driving off all but the die hard hockey fans. What's worse, the League was aware of the situation and did nothing to prevent it.

If by some miracle another NHL franchise calls Atlanta home, they will have to get along without me and my disposable income. I'm done investing my time, money, and emotions into a League that cares so little for it's fans.

I certainly understand the sentiment but overtime I bet you will feel differently. We were just stuck with a bad situation and I don't think there was really much the league could do. Remember the league already owns Phoenix so they weren't about to own another one of their franchises and also Glendale ponied up $25 million. It just sucks that Glavine wasn't able to put a group together.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

It just sucks that Glavine wasn't able to put a group together.

I think there were numerous groups, including Glavine's, that were interested in buying and keeping the team in Atlanta. However, without owning the arena, it made zero financial sense. I'm guessing that any lease plan put forth by A$G was such a joke that it scared any investors off quickly.

A$G was so intent on the Thrashers not playing in their building anymore that they had Don Waddell handle the local investors. Give me a break.

 

[NSHPreds1835]

I think there were numerous groups, including Glavine's, that were interested in buying and keeping the team in Atlanta. However, without owning the arena, it made zero financial sense. I'm guessing that any lease plan put forth by A$G was such a joke that it scared any investors off quickly.

A$G was so intent on the Thrashers not playing in their building anymore that they had Don Waddell handle the local investors. Give me a break.

I know he was trying but who knows whether they had the cash to withstand financial losses.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I know he was trying but who knows whether they had the cash to withstand financial losses.

Certainly not if they had to lease the arena.

 

[Killion]

I think there were numerous groups... A$G was so intent on the Thrashers not playing in their building anymore that they had Don Waddell handle the local investors. Give me a break.

... oh gosh, ya, all kinds of things floating around. Anson Carter supposedly with a group that wanted to buy the Thrashers, Hawks, arena. On & on, some solid, some not, but enough of the former that had ASG been willing to bow out altogether & sell up, a sale would have been transacted for the lot. They however had no intention of relinquishing ownership, wanted to jettison the Thrashers regardless, and certainly werent about to play nice with anyone wanting to buy them locally. So ya, they have Waddell running point & cover, the guy apparently either too stupid to understand what was really goin on or he was being disingenuous and duplicitous, playing everyone.

 

[Big Phil]

In what way were the Thrashers jammed down anyone's throat?

When the NHL expanded from 26 to 30 teams they added Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota. To the surprise of many Hamilton didn't even get a sniff of it. The NHL dropped the ball and refused to put a team in a market that would have had fans. Instead they tried to sell hockey to a market that could have cared less about it. I could have told the NHL that hockey would fail in Atlanta. But this is how the NHL operates. Trying to force a non-traditional game in their city. You may as well put NASCAR in New York City.

 

[Killion]

When the NHL expanded from 26 to 30 teams they added Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota. To the surprise of many Hamilton didn't even get a sniff of it. The NHL dropped the ball and refused to put a team in a market that would have had fans. Instead they tried to sell hockey to a market that could have cared less about it. I could have told the NHL that hockey would fail in Atlanta. But this is how the NHL operates. Trying to force a non-traditional game in their city. You may as well put NASCAR in New York City.

Well, hang on here just a minute BP. Atlanta made (and still does to this day insofar as Im concerned) all kinds of sense. You had media mogul Ted Turner joining the club, Atlanta one of the premier cities in the US in terms of corporate heft, weight & influence, one of the most important cities in the country, massive population, TV audience etc etc etc. Strategically located. The Capital of the South. Makes/made sense on every level.

Remember the original Flames? Just a throw in & add on as the Omni had just opened and the NHL in adding the Islanders in order to block the WHA out of New York needed another team to balance conferences? Well, despite all the guffaws, hootin & hollerin that they were doomed to fail, quite the reverse. People embraced the franchise. Rinks started getting built. If not for the then owners real estate meltdown, the shady dealings of Nelson Skalbania in snatching the team north & west to Calgary despite a solid local offer from investors including actor Glenn Frord, they'd still be there. And as for the "epic failure" of the Thrashers, well, you try building a following with Don Waddell at the helm. A decade of incompetence, no playoffs, total losers, cant keep talent, ASG deliberately sabotaging the franchise. Forget it. Game over. What a waste.

As for Hamilton, wasnt ever going to happen, not with the Leafs some 45 clicks due east & Buffalo southwest. Ron Joyce refused to pay the $50M Fee (Esposito did, nevermind his backers were the Japanese Yakuza). Said he'd only pay $25M. League tells him its non negotiable so just dont bother at all then. Joyce makes it appear he & Hamilton have been victimized. To this day he claims such. Revisionist. Also says he's glad he didnt get in because "it'll never work in Hamilton". I dont think that guy has a clue, and I dont like his donuts much either. Then in the "how not to go about winning friends & gaining influence" book of life, along comes Rim Jim Balsillie. Poisons the well further. Not just once, three times in a row (Pittsburgh, Nashville, Phoenix). "Lied to Mario". Got Eugene Melnyk so worked up he was frothing at the mouth in an interview explaining why Balsillie was rejected as a potential owner.

so....Nascar in New York City?.... Im likin that concept Phil. Manhattan specifically. Can you imagine? Like the Macys Day Parade meets Times Square on New Years Eve... on Red Bull, Vodka & Steroids. Do it right & proper though.... like Jason Stratham in Death Race.... New Yorkers, heck, the World would just love that.... Bring it.

 

[NSHPreds1835]

Well, hang on here just a minute BP. Atlanta made (and still does to this day insofar as Im concerned) all kinds of sense. You had media mogul Ted Turner joining the club, Atlanta one of the premier cities in the US in terms of corporate heft, weight & influence, one of the most important cities in the country, massive population, TV audience etc etc etc. Strategically located. The Capital of the South. Makes/made sense on every level.

Remember the original Flames? Just a throw in & add on as the Omni had just opened and the NHL in adding the Islanders in order to block the WHA out of New York needed another team to balance conferences? Well, despite all the guffaws, hootin & hollerin that they were doomed to fail, quite the reverse. People embraced the franchise. Rinks started getting built. If not for the then owners real estate meltdown, the shady dealings of Nelson Skalbania in snatching the team north & west to Calgary despite a solid local offer from investors including actor Glenn Frord, they'd still be there. And as for the "epic failure" of the Thrashers, well, you try building a following with Don Waddell at the helm. A decade of incompetence, no playoffs, total losers, cant keep talent, ASG deliberately sabotaging the franchise. Forget it. Game over. What a waste.

As for Hamilton, wasnt ever going to happen, not with the Leafs some 45 clicks due east & Buffalo southwest. Ron Joyce refused to pay the $50M Fee (Esposito did, nevermind his backers were the Japanese Yakuza). Said he'd only pay $25M. League tells him its non negotiable so just dont bother at all then. Joyce makes it appear he & Hamilton have been victimized. To this day he claims such. Revisionist. Also says he's glad he didnt get in because "it'll never work in Hamilton". I dont think that guy has a clue, and I dont like his donuts much either. Then in the "how not to go about winning friends & gaining influence" book of life, along comes Rim Jim Balsillie. Poisons the well further. Not just once, three times in a row (Pittsburgh, Nashville, Phoenix). "Lied to Mario". Got Eugene Melnyk so worked up he was frothing at the mouth in an interview explaining why Balsillie was rejected as a potential owner.

so....Nascar in New York City?.... Im likin that concept Phil. Manhattan specifically. Can you imagine? Like the Macys Day Parade meets Times Square on New Years Eve... on Red Bull, Vodka & Steroids. Do it right & proper though.... like Jason Stratham in Death Race.... New Yorkers, heck, the World would just love that.... Bring it.

Nice to know there are people out there that took the time to actually do their homework and not just buy into whatever narrative that has been driven about Atlanta.

 

[Killion]

Nice to know there are people out there that took the time to actually do their homework and not just buy into whatever narrative that has been driven about Atlanta.

Losing Atlanta the first time was bad enough. Losing it when the world has grown smaller through technological advances over the past 33yrs, the business of sports & entertainment marketing, management & control, checks & balances light years beyond & far more sophisticated than what they were in 1980 is unforgivable. Just how it was that the NHL, the stewards of the game stood idly bye for over 10yrs watching ASG & Atlanta unravel I'll never know, begin to understand. They had no problem taking Len Barrie & Oren Koules out behind the wood shed; no problem lying their pants off in Phoenix in front of Judge Baum, beating up on Moyes, holding the team for ransom extorting $50M from the City of Glendale while enabling others to really try & raid the vaults to the tune of $300M+. Yet here they get outflanked & outmaneuvered by a bunch of newbie millionaire hick idiots? Had to have seen this coming. And if they didnt? Gross incompetence. Both Bettman & Daly should have tendered their resignations then & there.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When the NHL expanded from 26 to 30 teams they added Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota. To the surprise of many Hamilton didn't even get a sniff of it. The NHL dropped the ball and refused to put a team in a market that would have had fans. Instead they tried to sell hockey to a market that could have cared less about it. I could have told the NHL that hockey would fail in Atlanta. But this is how the NHL operates. Trying to force a non-traditional game in their city. You may as well put NASCAR in New York City.

You have to think of it in the context of the times. I can't imagine anyone was legitimately surprised that Hamilton didn't get a team at a time when every Canadian team but Toronto and Montreal was on the verge of failing due to the currency.

 

[Killion]

You have to think of it in the context of the times. I can't imagine anyone was legitimately surprised that Hamilton didn't get a team at a time when every Canadian team but Toronto and Montreal was on the verge of failing due to the currency.

Well, that didnt really hit (currency devaluation) full-on until the mid 90's. Ron Joyce, who had been partners with Tim Horton and who after Tims death assumed full control of the Tim Hortons Donut empire with rapid expansion & franchising, becoming a billionaire in the process, Hamilton the first stores location & H.O., anyway, he'd been working the league throughout the 80's, Copps Coliseum opening in 85.... He applied, or wanted to secure one of the 2 Expansion spots opening up in 92, however, he had strong competition from Ottawa & of course Tampa, with a dual track there of both Karmanos & Rutherford along with Esposito & the Pritzker family vying for that market. Pritzkers backed our at the last minute, Esposito getting a deal done with Japanese "interests", paying the $50M, Karmanos & Rutherford balking & offering up only $29M, Ron Joyce & Hamilton $25M. Joyce also told in no uncertain terms that Hamilton wouldnt ever get a franchise (Toronto, Buffalo) even if he did put up the full $50M. Through the mid to late 90's as we know, Ottawa experienced serious problems, Winnipeg & Quebec gone, Edmonton nearly sold to Alexander in Houston, the Oilers, Flames & Canucks all staggering under the sinking dollar, sluggish economy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, that didnt really hit (currency devaluation) full-on until the mid 90's. Ron Joyce, who had been partners with Tim Horton and who after Tims death assumed full control of the Tim Hortons Donut empire with rapid expansion & franchising, becoming a billionaire in the process, Hamilton the first stores location & H.O., anyway, he'd been working the league throughout the 80's, Copps Coliseum opening in 85.... He applied, or wanted to secure one of the 2 Expansion spots opening up in 92, however, he had strong competition from Ottawa & of course Tampa, with a dual track there of both Karmanos & Rutherford along with Esposito & the Pritzker family vying for that market. Pritzkers backed our at the last minute, Esposito getting a deal done with Japanese "interests", paying the $50M, Karmanos & Rutherford balking & offering up only $29M, Ron Joyce & Hamilton $25M. Joyce also told in no uncertain terms that Hamilton wouldnt ever get a franchise (Toronto, Buffalo) even if he did put up the full $50M. Through the mid to late 90's as we know, Ottawa experienced serious problems, Winnipeg & Quebec gone, Edmonton nearly sold to Alexander in Houston, the Oilers, Flames & Canucks all staggering under the sinking dollar, sluggish economy.

But Phil was specifically talking about Atlanta, and the currency issues were in full effect by then:

The Atlanta Thrashers were a professional ice hockey team based in Atlanta, Georgia, United States. Atlanta was granted a franchise in the National Hockey League (NHL) on June 25, 1997, and became the league's 28th franchise when it began play in the 1999–2000 NHL season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Thrashers

 

[Killion]

But Phil was specifically talking about Atlanta, and the currency issues were in full effect by then:

Yes noted, and I believe he got his dates mixed up or perhaps was simply lumping Atlanta in in "general" terms with respect to southern expansion. Hamilton in 1997 didnt present any serious offers or bids that Im aware of to join the league for the 1999-2000 season.

 

[Shameus]

I think there were numerous groups, including Glavine's, that were interested in buying and keeping the team in Atlanta. However, without owning the arena, it made zero financial sense. I'm guessing that any lease plan put forth by A$G was such a joke that it scared any investors off quickly.

A$G was so intent on the Thrashers not playing in their building anymore that they had Don Waddell handle the local investors. Give me a break.

Know someone in sports management in another Atlanta franchise and Glavine's group did meet the sale price from everything he knew and he knew Glavine. Problem was ASG. You're right about the arena lease. It was horrible and the team would have had to have operated right at the minimum salary threshold and make it deep into the playoffs to break even. There was no way they would have turned a profit and no owner is going to agree to no chance to make money. ASG wanted the team gone. They wanted the open dates for other events that they didn't have operating costs on at the level of the Thrashers.

I could have dealt with the franchise moving if the fan base had failed it but ASG actually pulled off what that female owner tried to in "Major League." Make the team bad, run off the fans, and move the team for better deal.

Atlanta got the franchise based on Turner and his media empire and the league hoping it would be a benefit to the league. Without Turner would the city have gotten a second chance, no; and because of ASG the NHL will never even give the city a second thought again.

Killion, nicely put.

 

[Et le But]

I'll remember the Thrashers for their most important celebrity fan.

 

[NSHPreds1835]

For the excitement and hope Thrasher fans felt for finally reaching the playoffs.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

To a large extent, this is true.

How do people remember the California Seals? The Thrashers will be remembered in much the same way - they won't be.

BTW - there are probably three of us on the planet that have Seals jerseys, me being one of them. I have a Seals hat as well.

When I was a kid I had a Seals hat!

 

[tarheelhockey]

When the NHL expanded from 26 to 30 teams they added Nashville, Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota. To the surprise of many Hamilton didn't even get a sniff of it. The NHL dropped the ball and refused to put a team in a market that would have had fans. Instead they tried to sell hockey to a market that could have cared less about it. I could have told the NHL that hockey would fail in Atlanta. But this is how the NHL operates. Trying to force a non-traditional game in their city. You may as well put NASCAR in New York City.

So again, how was Atlanta force-fed a team? Did Bettman intimidate Ted Turner into filling out an application for a franchise? Did the ghost of Harold Ballard force the city into passing a bond to finance a new arena for the team? Why did the whole process look voluntary when it was, in fact, forced upon an unwilling populace? Why didn't the contempt of Atlantans stop the process in its fetal stage?

It seems that the major power brokers who actually live in Atlanta and had their own money invested in the team thought it would work. Unfortunately for Atlanta, those initial investors were replaced by a group whose specific intention was to liquidate the franchise as quickly as possible, and would have accomplished that goal 5 years earlier if it had been up to them. That's all it takes to sink a franchise, no matter where it's located.

 

[Bongo]

I certainly understand the sentiment but overtime I bet you will feel differently. We were just stuck with a bad situation and I don't think there was really much the league could do. Remember the league already owns Phoenix so they weren't about to own another one of their franchises and also Glendale ponied up $25 million. It just sucks that Glavine wasn't able to put a group together.

Don't count on it. As far as I'm concerned Gary Bettman and the NHL can all go to hell. This whole experience was nothing more than a con job. I still love hockey but the League won't get another dime of my money. If you think I'm bitter, you're absolutely right.

 

[Killion]

Don't count on it. As far as I'm concerned Gary Bettman and the NHL can all go to hell. This whole experience was nothing more than a con job. I still love hockey but the League won't get another dime of my money. If you think I'm bitter, you're absolutely right.

Ya, it cut deep Bongo. Unfortunately ASG & by rote the NHL somehow was spared the vitriolic excoriation they both received & deserved in Atlanta by collectively fans elsewhere on the continent, north & south. It was yet another shameful episode in the NHL's history. Atlantans & fans in the South left to stage a private wake, no sympathy & not much outrage elsewhere. Just the usual elitist "told ya so, never work" BS. Though its difficult I know, it is possible to still love the game as you clearly do, forgive but not forget. You were robbed, violated, used & abused, deceived & lied to. Cant take your dignity, pride of place. This is the NHL's fault & loss, fans in every other locale be it Canada or the US, not yours. A healthy franchise in Atlanta absolutely critical to the current & future health of the game & the league.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

... and would have accomplished that goal 5 years earlier if it had been up to them.

Congrats on the Mod position! Now, go delete everyone in the Business Forum!

Anyway...I've heard rumblings (no link, just word of mouth mind you) of ASG doing just that immediately after the purchase. It was the drawn out law suit that kept the team in Atlanta for the extra 5 years.

 

[Killion]

Congrats on the Mod position! Now, go delete everyone in the Business Forum!

... now just hold on here, were not all bad. Sure dont need your help, given a forced vacation AW. Quite an expert at making my own travel arrangements in that regard as it is.

 

[NSHPreds1835]

Congrats on the Mod position! Now, go delete everyone in the Business Forum!

Anyway...I've heard rumblings (no link, just word of mouth mind you) of ASG doing just that immediately after the purchase. It was the drawn out law suit that kept the team in Atlanta for the extra 5 years.

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/lawsuit-thrashers-owners-have-been-trying-to-sell-/nQpwh/

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

... now just hold on here, were not all bad. Sure dont need your help, given a forced vacation AW. Quite an expert at making my own travel arrangements in that regard as it is.

Killion my friend, you are certainly one of the (very few) good apples (well...rational anyway). No forced vacations for you.