ATD2020 Draft Thread I

[ChiTownPhilly]

Dogs and Cats Living Together.
Canadiens1958 & Your Humble Dilettante on the same page on a matter of substance:

... when playing Chicago, top priority was NOT a close call. Bobby Hull- what the hell do we do about THIS guy?! And you had to come up with SOME answer- shadowing- containment- fresh legs- something... because if you didn't, he'd kill you. And no doubt in my mind that (during the Regular Season, anyway), the extra focus on Hull allowed (undrafted) to light-it-up. One of the amazing things about Hull is that he potted all the goals that he did in spite of being the inarguable primary focus of the game-plans of entire talent-rich O-6 teams.

Combined regular season and playoff scoring reveals why Bobby Hull was the oppositions #1 defensive concern. NHL teams and coaches had the ability to look beyond Art Ross counting.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Leafs select

Defenceman

Nik Lidstrom

 

[ImporterExporter]

Dogs and Cats Living Together.
Canadiens1958 & Your Humble Dilettante on the same page on a matter of substance:

I don't think many ever doubted Hull was the primary focus for other 06 teams. He was clearly the best player on Chicago.

I simply wonder how much time he spent w/ the puck on his stick relative to others because from what I've seen (far less than others mind you) and heard, he carried the puck quite a bit, which was atypical of a winger at that time in my estimation.

With that being said, I don't think he is some incredibly difficult player to build around, you just need to be a bit more cognizant who you put at the pivot and RW, from a purely stylistic standpoint.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Leafs select

Defenceman

Nik Lidstrom

Certainly not a sexy superstar but he was an absolute stud. So consistent in all zones and roles. He was the epitome of a damn metronome as far as play went.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Leafs select
Defenceman
Nik Lidstrom

Bargain of the draft, so far (IMO).

If he's ever been picked as low or lower than 13th, it would have had to have been before 2011- when he was still active as a player(!) [Let that sink in...] Well played!

 

[BenchBrawl]

Bargain of the draft, so far (IMO).

If he's ever been picked as low or lower than 13th, it would have had to have been before 2011- when he was still active as a player(!) [Let that sink in...] Well played!

Far from. I'm struggling to see how a player who was considered the best in the world for mayyyyybe one season in his long career (peaking in a weak era) could be considered a bargain when picked around guys like Bobby Hull and Sidney Crosby, both clearly the best player of their generation and considered the best player in the world for a decade.

That said, I get the pick. He's a defenseman. His record is an easy sell. I get all that. But a bargain? I don't get it.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I don't think many ever doubted Hull was the primary focus for other 06 teams. He was clearly the best player on Chicago.

I simply wonder how much time he spent w/ the puck on his stick relative to others because from what I've seen (far less than others mind you) and heard, he carried the puck quite a bit, which was atypical of a winger at that time in my estimation.

With that being said, I don't think he is some incredibly difficult player to build around, you just need to be a bit more cognizant who you put at the pivot and RW, from a purely stylistic standpoint.

I think the bolded and a lack of high end line mates explains a lot. IMO Hull’s time in the WHA is very important, yes it was a lesser league, but he was able to play a European style with a lot of puck movement, weaving, etc. very effectively.

 

[The Macho King]

Far from. I'm struggling to see how a player who was considered the best in the world for mayyyyybe one season in his long career (peaking in a weak era) could be considered a bargain when picked around guys like Bobby Hull and Sidney Crosby, both clearly the best player of their generation and considered the best player in the world for a decade.

That said, I get the pick. He's a defenseman. His record is an easy sell. I get all that. But a bargain? I don't get it.

Yeah I dont think it was a bargain. I think it was the right spot for him to go (except for maybe a particular undrafted).

I dont think there have been any reaches so far.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Slow sunday afternoon.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Bloshoy picks Eddie Shore

 

[ResilientBeast]

Slow sunday afternoon.

I've been traveling all day so I'm ok with not getting into wifi "on the clock"

 

[ResilientBeast]

Can someone please pm the next division for me? Won't be able to pm them for a couple of hours.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Bloshoy picks Eddie Shore

If I hadn't have him in ATD2018 he was my pick at 11th.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Can someone please pm the next division for me? Won't be able to pm them for a couple of hours.

I'll do it in an hour.

 

[The Macho King]

Bloshoy picks Eddie Shore

Probably the best value pick so far.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Can someone please pm the next division for me? Won't be able to pm them for a couple of hours.

Done.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

(Lidström)- bargain of the draft, so far (IMO).

Far from.

Yeah I dont think it was a bargain.

I admire both of you guys- really, I do. But if you're going to say stuff like this, I'll have to engage.
14 folks have been taken as of the time of this posting. Among ALL of the players taken so far, it is Lidström alone that's never been taken this late. [My look-back is going back to 2011.]

If he's not a bargain, nobody taken yet has been.

I've got a decade of ATD-History on my side. What you got?!?

 

[The Macho King]

I admire both of you guys- really, I do. But if you're going to say stuff like this, I'll have to engage.
14 folks have been taken as of the time of this posting. Among ALL of the players taken so far, it is Lidström alone that's never been taken this late. [My look-back is going back to 2011.]

If he's not a bargain, nobody taken yet has been.

I've got a decade of ATD-History on my side. What you got?!?

Just that Lidstrom is overrated and the fact that someone has been consistently overvalued over Shore and Potvin despite Shore being the best player of the 30s and Potvin being just a better Dman than him doesn't really change that. Lidstrom is the bottom of the top tier of Dmen. There is one other undrafted Dman that I think could go before him, but generally I think this is the right spot for him to go - after Orr/Bourque/Harvey/Potvin and interchangeable with Shore (due to Shore's noted discipline issues + inconsistent playoff performances).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Lidstrom just went 11th last year.

I don't really think anyone has been a "bargain". We're talking a few picks variance in any instance to this point.

I'm sure there will be a steal or 2 before this 1st round is up but there hasn't been anything outrageous yet.

 

[The Macho King]

Lidstrom just went 11th last year.

I don't really think anyone has been a "bargain". We're talking a few picks variance in any instance to this point.

I'm sure there will be a steal or 2 before this 1st round is up but there hasn't been anything outrageous yet.

Yeah the guys that have moved around have been a couple of picks, and they're all in the "right range". Only "reach" is Roy, because I don't think goaltenders normally go this early? But if you're going to go for a goalie, that's the guy you grab.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yeah the guys that have moved around have been a couple of picks, and they're all in the "right range". Only "reach" is Roy, because I don't think goaltenders normally go this early? But if you're going to go for a goalie, that's the guy you grab.

I think Roy was absolutely the best player on the board when he went. He's a top 10 player for most all time. With that being said, G do tend to end up on the back burner but in a draft this size don't be surprised to see a run earlier than usual.

 

[Habsfan18]

@GlitchMarner is active, so I imagine his pick will be coming tonight.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I admire both of you guys- really, I do. But if you're going to say stuff like this, I'll have to engage.
14 folks have been taken as of the time of this posting. Among ALL of the players taken so far, it is Lidström alone that's never been taken this late. [My look-back is going back to 2011.]

If he's not a bargain, nobody taken yet has been.

I've got a decade of ATD-History on my side. What you got?!?

Two championships

More seriously, for a player to be a "bargain" he needs to be significantly better than the players taken just before him. Of course getting the last player of a tier later, is better than getting a player of the same tier earlier, but to qualify as a "bargain" would require more than a few picks of difference.

Also, I don't see Lidstrom as being in the same tier as players like Crosby, Hull, Richard, Roy, and arguably Potvin and Shore for that matter. OK, I'm low on Lidstrom, but my take on Lidstrom is not as extreme as your take on Crosby, which while I respect the point in the abstract, I don't believe it applies to Crosby who is one of the most serious student of the game hockey has ever seen, and one of the most adaptable, and thus I don't believe that there exist a permanent "Crosby containment structure".

I also really don't buy your other arguments, especially concerning Pittsburgh's 2nd center deserving a piece of the pie from Crosby's plate.

All in all, I don't see how Lidstrom could be a bargain, considering I find him inferior to every player taken before him. Even if by "consensus" Lidstrom is considered better than Potvin, and assuming I give him that, being better than a single player drafted before you doesn't qualify you as a bargain.

Concerning Lidstrom, observe that I ranked him back-to-back-to-back with two of his contemporaries in Round 1 of the Top 100 Project. This was deliberate, as I feel the three of them were extremely close. This was my rationale for my ranking. Some of my Round 1 list was throwing stuff at the wall to qualify for the project, but some were more thoughtful, and this was the latter (I say this so people don't go and use my Round 1 list against me by nitpicking it to death or taking it as my ultimate and permanent opinion).

On another front, the ATD is constantly evolving, as is the community knowledge, but also the fashions. Past rankings rarely make for a good argument. The premium put on defensemen made defensemen overrated. Also, for the last two years Crosby has climbed the ladder all the way to the Top 15 of all-time (must be near majority opinion by now, and many have him Top 10), and so everyone under him moves down one spot.

In a nutshell, I think my problem was with the word "bargain" (and I'd have the same problem with the word "steal" in that case).

 

[DitchMarner]

Brampton selects G Dom Hasek.

 

[DitchMarner]

@tinyzombies, your turn.