ATD2011 Jim Robson Semi: (1) Kimberly Dynamiters vs. (5) San Jose Sharks

[jarek]

Lidstrom should win the Norris.. not Weber. Plzkthx.

 

[Derick*]

There is absolutely no way that Roy Conacher was a better overall player than Sid Abel.

I'm not buying Hextall vs Drillon based on just goals, either. One should look at playmaking and overall offense as well as intangibles, since that does look to be rather in Hextall's favor considering Drillon's defciency in that area.

Hextall is miles and light years ahead of Drillon as a player.

Also, why is there talk of the Sharks having a deficiency, at least on the first line, defensively? I think Abel - Petrov - Hextall is a very strong unit defensively.. I'd feel pretty comfortable using this line power on power in many matchups.

What the posts of these tenured HoH community leaders have already shown for me is that (with all due respect), Mr. Bugg's forward to forward comparision post borders on ludicrous.

 

[jarek]

While I'm rather honored to be considered an HoH community leader, I am certainly not deserving of that honor.

Regardless, I agree with your assessment. Bugg is out of his mind!

 

[hfboardsuser]

What the posts of these tenured HoH community leaders have already shown for me is that (with all due respect), Mr. Bugg's forward to forward comparision post borders on ludicrous.

Maybe you should do some of your own arguing? With all due respect, posting stuff like "It'll be cataclysmic" and "Sharks in 6" does nothing to contribute to the debate.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

All of my first line forwards are defensively responcible. Abel and Petrov were both the defensive anchor for their slightly (perhaps unfairly?) more famous wingers. My only defensive weakness is my second forward line, which like I said, won't need to take any defensive zone faceoffs. My 1st, 3rd, and 4th line will split ES defensive zone faceoffs 20/20/60.

Abel was absolutely the defensive anchor of the original Production Line (one of several reasons I find Ted Lindsay overrated by this community), but it's certainly not unfair that Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay were more famous. As for Petrov, he apparently developed into a pretty good two-way player after the Summit Series, but I'm not sure I'd call him a "defensive anchor."

 

[jarek]

I think Petrov is a plus defensively in the ATD. How much of one, that is definitely up for interpretation. Abel and Hextall are obviously very good as well.

 

[Derick*]

Maybe you should do some of your own arguing? With all due respect, posting stuff like "It'll be cataclysmic" and "Sharks in 6" does nothing to contribute to the debate.

Do my own arguing? Did I pay them to challenge you or something? Are they my big brothers?

I don't see the problem with agreeing with TDMM's opinion but saying I think it will apply to an even higher degree, or with stating my opinion of how long the series will take. Especially seeing as I also elaborated and made my own arguments and will continue to do so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think Petrov is a plus defensively in the ATD. How much of one, that is definitely up for interpretation. Abel and Hextall are obviously very good as well.

Is Hextall very good defensively? I thought of him as a traditional power forward, but not necessarily a defensive presence like Abel.

 

[Leafs Forever]

I don't think the arguements outside of Conacher vs Abel and Hextall vs Drillon were ridiculous. The rest were fairly reasonable; I could see more of a case being made for Mats Naslund maybe, but I don't know enough about him and Mr. Bugg has validity there.

There isn't much to Hextall defensively, to my knowledge, but he does bring his power-forward game and isn't a minus in the defensive area as Drillon is. The line on a whole is perfectly fine defensively, however.

 

[Sturminator]

Let's not overdue the love for San Jose's first line here. We know nothing about Hextall's defensive value, and Petrov probably falls between average and above average in this, no more. Abel was a strong defensive player, yes. It's a responsible two-way unit, but not a dominant one. Compared to Kimberly's top line, however, well...that's another matter.

 

[Derick*]

It's a responsible two-way unit, but not a dominant one.

Agreed. With Abel being a plus, Petrov being a slight plus, and Hextall being an "unknown" but as a known good checker probably a slight plus, you add those up and it's a "good" two-way unit but not something you could confuse for dominant.

I think the reason it's being played up so much is the context - the weakness of Kimberley's first line defensively, the fact that my first line is also strong offensively, the fact that #4 will be moving the puck up for it, and the fact of San Jose's overall puck posession dominance in this match up.

I will talk about some other things, including some of his forward comparisons, shortly if I get the chance.

 

[Derick*]

Defensive forward guru Dan Bylsma nominated for Jack Adams trophy.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Defensive forward guru Dan Bylsma nominated for Jack Adams trophy.

A deserved one, I think, despite a bad playoff series (apparently).

 

[vecens24]

A deserved one, I think, despite a bad playoff series (apparently).

He deserved an Adams nod just for the sheer fact that he held this team together. But he's not a good coach when it comes to players that are talented, like he has here on your team Cog. And he has no idea how to make adjustments.

You don't exactly have a lot of grinders on your team either since youre running out three scoring lines.

 

[Derick*]

A deserved one, I think, despite a bad playoff series (apparently).

Apparently. The statisticians say the Pens dominated the and the Bolts got lucky http://www.behindthenethockey.com/2011/4/28/2138251/playoff-fenwick-score-tied-update

He deserved an Adams nod just for the sheer fact that he held this team together. But he's not a good coach when it comes to players that are talented, like he has here on your team Cog. And he has no idea how to make adjustments.

You don't exactly have a lot of grinders on your team either since youre running out three scoring lines.

The 4th line is defensive, the 2nd is offensive, and the 1st and 3rd are two-way, so there's defense for him to work with. Because it's an ATD level roster, the stars will have to play more defensively than they would otherwise, like team Canada in the Olympics. I don't think it's "grinders" he's good with so much as defensive forward game plans - and he'll be able to do that here.

He'll even get a lot out of the 2nd line - Malkin peaked under him. And for all our talk of Bylsma, he's only an assistant coach . Tortorella has managed offensive talents well. That's how he won a cup and jack adams in 04.

 

[seventieslord]

Also, why is there talk of the Sharks having a deficiency, at least on the first line, defensively? I think Abel - Petrov - Hextall is a very strong unit defensively.. I'd feel pretty comfortable using this line power on power in many matchups.

Agree, I would not have a problem with this as a powe-on-power 1st line.

Is Hextall very good defensively? I thought of him as a traditional power forward, but not necessarily a defensive presence like Abel.

Same here.

Abel's good, Petrov is average at worst, and Hextall's a power forward. Nothing dominant, but responsible and solid overall.

 

[Derick*]

Drillon vs. B. Hextall

Two very, very similar players. Hextall has TTG of 1,1,2,5,5,10, Drillon 1,3,4,4,5,7. Draw.

In what universe are those TTGs a draw?

They're non-overlapping TTG is Hextall 1,2,5,10, Drillon 3,4,4,7. That's not to mention playmaking, intangibles, etc. and every other field where Hextall leads. Obvious advantage to Hextall.

RE: Hawerchuk v. Malkin and Boucher v. Naslund. These summaries basically boil down to "When my player has better longevity but an inferior peak, longevity is more important. When your player has better longevity but an inferior peak, peak is more important."

Adjusting the corrections made so far, I now calculate it as 2 - 1 - 3 in my advantage.

This in addition to the facts that...
- The Sharks have better 3rd and 4th lines, more offensive depth.
- The whole Sharks puck posession playstyle is a counter to your team's layout.
- My powerplay will dominate, as usual.

I urge you, don't vote by seed - vote by reason. Vote for the San Jose Sharks.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In what universe are those TTGs a draw?

They're non-overlapping TTG is Hextall 1,2,5,10, Drillon 3,4,4,7. That's not to mention playmaking, intangibles, etc. and every other field where Hextall leads. Obvious advantage to Hextall.

1,2,5,10
3,4,4,7
-2,-2,+1,+3 = 0

I guess in this universe? I guess you guys need to look into the gaps in these finishes or use percentages or something to shed more light on these.

RE: Hawerchuk v. Malkin and Boucher v. Naslund. These summaries basically boil down to "When my player has better longevity but an inferior peak, longevity is more important. When your player has better longevity but an inferior peak, peak is more important."

I'd take Hawerchuk over Malkin in a heartbeat. Course, I like Hawerchuk - he got lost in Gretzky/Lemieux's shadow but he was a great great player. Between Malkin's inconsistency and injuries it would be an easy decision for me.

Boucher vs. Naslund I'm torn on. Naslund was a good player for a relatively long time and his totals suffered from playing on one of the teams that still thought of defensive responsibility as being important from its scorers.

This in addition to the facts that...
- The Sharks have better 3rd and 4th lines, more offensive depth.
- The whole Sharks puck posession playstyle is a counter to your team's layout.
- My powerplay will dominate, as usual.

I urge you, don't vote by seed - vote by reason. Vote for the San Jose Sharks.

I feel like I'm watching Fox News or some other brainwashing outfit.

 

[Derick*]

1,2,5,10
3,4,4,7
-2,-2,+1,+3 = 0

I guess in this universe? I guess you guys need to look into the gaps in these finishes or use percentages or something to shed more light on these.

You can't just count the differences. Obviously the spot between 1st and 2nd is bigger than the spot between 7th and 8th, etc. How much is where it gets complicated - but seeing all of his leads are in the lower rankings, obviously 1,2,5,10 is better than 3,4,4,7.

I'd take Hawerchuk over Malkin in a heartbeat. Course, I like Hawerchuk - he got lost in Gretzky/Lemieux's shadow but he was a great great player. Between Malkin's inconsistency and injuries it would be an easy decision for me.

Boucher vs. Naslund I'm torn on. Naslund was a good player for a relatively long time and his totals suffered from playing on one of the teams that still thought of defensive responsibility as being important from its scorers.

Fair enough.

I feel like I'm watching Fox News or some other brainwashing outfit.

*eyeroll*

 

[Derick*]

We need a new Godwin's law that replaces Hitler with Fox News and Glenn Beck. No one makes Hitler comparisions any more, those are the gratuitious guilt-by-assocation comparisions that are en vogue today.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You can't just count the differences.

obviously 1,2,5,10 is better than 3,4,4,7.

Pick one.

 

[Derick*]

Those two statements are in no way contradictory.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

He means the difference between 1st and 2nd is way more important than the difference between 9th and 10th. They have different weights.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He means the difference between 1st and 2nd is way more important than the difference between 9th and 10th. They have different weights.

Which may be true in some cases but is largely dependent on what the competition was doing relative to those respective finishes.

That might be why I said we would need to examine the gaps between those finishes or percentages or some other method to find out some more before we could say it was obvious.

 

[Derick*]

I am sorry this has become so personal to you you're evading the obvious.