ATD2011 Jim Robson Semi: (1) Kimberly Dynamiters vs. (5) San Jose Sharks

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My analysis of the Weber/Suter pairing from my last thread:





...who is also one of the best defensive defenseman in the league, nearing the top of the league in blocked shots, hits, etc.

Now that ive had time to get used to them bring drafted, I actually think that Weber-Suter is a fine bottom pair. Lack of a solid second pairing anchor is the one real problem with your D. Or more specifically, lack of a real #2 defenseman. Orr is the greatest, but I see Baun as a guy best served as a #3. He's fine next to Orr, but then you really don't have a second pairing anchor. Jovo is a credible #4, but Daneyko should probably be on a bottom pair ideally.

Of course if you are going to put that much defensive pressure on someone, Orr is the best there is!

 

[seventieslord]

Which may be true in some cases but is largely dependent on what the competition was doing relative to those respective finishes.

That might be why I said we would need to examine the gaps between those finishes or percentages or some other method to find out some more before we could say it was obvious.

You are probably right. This is far from obvious and more granularity would be required to declare a winner.

It's probably not even worth it. Why not say they are pretty close offensively and leave it at that? Everyone knows Hextall is the far better overall player anyway.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I really don't know why Drillon is not on the first PP unit. Standing in the slot and scoring goals from in tight is his one useful skill in the ATD, and he was really good at it! Seems like a dominant player on a modern PP.

 

[overpass]

Now that ive had time to get used to them bring drafted, I actually think that Weber-Suter is a fine bottom pair. Lack of a solid second pairing anchor is the one real problem with your D. Or more specifically, lack of a real #2 defenseman. Orr is the greatest, but I see Baun as a guy best served as a #3. He's fine next to Orr, but then you really don't have a second pairing anchor. Jovo is a credible #4, but Daneyko should probably be on a bottom pair ideally.

Of course if you are going to put that much defensive pressure on someone, Orr is the best there is!

Weber and Suter definitely have a peak case. Best pairing in the league this year, right up there last year, both among the top defenders at the Olympics. And they look better every round the advance in the playoffs. Hard to say how that and a short career translates to the ATD but it's definitely worth something.

 

[vecens24]

My opinion on it is that if Dion Phaneuf gets drafted, then I certainly see no problem with Weber getting drafted. He's better than Dion in an ATD sense. Suter probably is better defensively than Weber, but he doesn't really have a tangible track record outside of the one Olympics as far as I know. Also he doesn't bring any other aspects better than Shea in my view. Basically you're just going on an outspoken group of Nashville fans (who I don't think represent the majority to be honest). He might be better, he might not be but I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a guy with more tangible of a track record.

 

[Derick*]

Suter is universally known among Nashville fans to be equal to Weber. Weber is a little better offensively, Suter is a little better defensively.

imo, suter is better defensively, and a better playmaker. i know more than a few nashville fans agree with me.

when suter was injured early this season, nashville's GAA increased a lot and their record was weak.

nashville without suter: 5-6-1
nashville with suter: 41-22-10

GAA with suter: 2.28
GAA without suter: 2.75

GA/60 minutes at ES
suter: 1.81 (one of the lowest on nashville)

 

[Derick*]

Now that ive had time to get used to them bring drafted, I actually think that Weber-Suter is a fine bottom pair. Lack of a solid second pairing anchor is the one real problem with your D. Or more specifically, lack of a real #2 defenseman. Orr is the greatest, but I see Baun as a guy best served as a #3. He's fine next to Orr, but then you really don't have a second pairing anchor. Jovo is a credible #4, but Daneyko should probably be on a bottom pair ideally.

Of course if you are going to put that much defensive pressure on someone, Orr is the best there is!

For the lesser player on a top pairing Baun is average. Add Orr and I've got a great first pairing.

Daneyko is a great defensive defenseman. Jovo is a good two-way defenseman. I don't see what's wrong with it. It's a little bit below average as far as second line pairings go, but if that's the weakest point on my team, I'm not complaining.

 

[Derick*]

He might be better, he might not be but I'd feel a lot more comfortable with a guy with more tangible of a track record.

It's tangible. It's just lost in the fog that is the Tennesse hockey market. On a team with no offense and barely spending at half the cap.

Look at them giving the President's Trophy winner a run for their money, three-handidly.

Or I would even argue two-handidly. Nashville's defensive system, Suter/Weber, etc. make every Nashville goalie look good. Look at how Mason and others looked when playing for Nashville, and how whenever they leave Nashville can get another goalie that looks equally good. I would argue Rinne is a bit overrated and Weber/Suter should be getting more credit for getting this team with almost nothing else into the final eight.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Baun is a better #2 than Morrow, but I still find him below average for than role.

 

[Derick*]

Baun is a better #2 than Morrow, but I still find him below average for than role.

But you can still accept that he's not completely out of place and that, as such, Baun/Orr is a very good first pairing, considering how special Orr is?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's tangible. It's just lost in the fog that is the Tennesse hockey market. On a team with no offense and barely spending at half the cap.

Look at them giving the President's Trophy winner a run for their money, three-handidly.

Or I would even argue two-handidly. Nashville's defensive system, Suter/Weber, etc. make every Nashville goalie look good. Look at how Mason and others looked when playing for Nashville, and how whenever they leave Nashville can get another goalie that looks equally good. I would argue Rinne is a bit overrated and Weber/Suter should be getting more credit for getting this team with almost nothing else into the final eight.

If anything overrated Nashville goalies, it's the fact that their scorekeeper has a very loose definition of what constitutes a "shot," so their recorded save percentages are always artificially high.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

But you can still accept that he's not completely out of place and that, as such, Baun/Orr is a very good first pairing, considering how special Orr is?

Of course it's good. Bobby Orr next to a natural #3 is going to be a very good pairing always.

I wish Bugg would do more work trying to show Baker's place in the world in his era that is more than just dominating university teams. It's hard to figure out just how good Baker was.

 

[Derick*]

If anything overrated Nashville goalies, it's the fact that their scorekeeper has a very loose definition of what constitutes a "shot," so their recorded save percentages are always artificially high.

I agree, but the two causes aren't mutually exclusive. They're just inverse versions of the same misinterpritation.

If Nashville is overcounting shots, that not only means their goaltenders are stopping a smaller percentage of them. It also means that Nashville's defense is allowing fewer than the stat sheet shows.

We all know that Nashville does not allow in a lot of goals. The shot counting problem is unfairly taking credit away from the defenseman and transfering it to the goaltenders.

 

[Derick*]

Of course it's good. Bobby Orr next to a natural #3 is going to be a very good pairing always.

I wish Bugg would do more work trying to show Baker's place in the world in his era that is more than just dominating university teams. It's hard to figure out just how good Baker was.

Bugg is frankly losing this debate handidly and I think he's pretty much given up in frustration. I don't see how Kimberly can win this match-up at this point.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bugg is frankly losing this debate handidly and I think he's pretty much given up in frustration. I don't see how Kimberly can win this match-up at this point.

Or perhaps I just want to know how much better Baker is than Jovo?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

We all know that Nashville does not allow in a lot of goals. The shot counting problem is unfairly taking credit away from the defenseman and transfering it to the goaltenders.

True.

 

[Derick*]

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Game 1: Kimberley flat out had no answer for Bobby Orr, as he burns then for a goal and 2 assists. Only the goaltending of Hasek keeps it close. San Jose wins 4-2.

Game 2: Orr shreds Kimberley's defense again, but this time, Hasek is up for the task, holding him to a single assist. Potvin had two assists himself, both on powerplay goals. Kimberley wins 3-1.

Game 3: The teams trade chances all game, with both goalies playing well. Tied 1-1 headed into overtime, where Dake Hawerchuk gets the game winner. Kimberley wins 2-1 in overtime.

Game 4: Sid Abel catches Gordie Drillon cherrypicking for 2 goals in the first period, one of them assisted by Orr. Then Hasek shuts the door, turning back numerous rushes. Potvin sets up Apps for a late goal, but that's all Kimberley can get by Durnan tonight. Orr scores intonthe empty net. San Jose wins 3-1.

Series tied at two games apiece.

 

[Derick*]

Love the game-by-game summaries TDMM

 

[Leaf Lander]

Love the game-by-game summaries TDMM

we use to do them for each series especially vanislander boy could he ever get into character but for the last few atd's we basically stopped. Nice to see it coming back.

 

[Dreakmur]

we use to do them for each series especially vanislander boy could he ever get into character but for the last few atd's we basically stopped. Nice to see it coming back.

You should see some of the ones from the LC ATDs. Some of those wer pretty epic!

Here's a write-up from Communist Ninja, who I think is Johnny Engine here:

Game 6, The Musical!

Enter Seventies Lord, wearing a house coat and bunny slippers. He sits on a chair and smokes a pipe.

70slord: It was only a year past, I went to a board,
a place where leafs fans like me, seventieslord
would talk of their heroes, and plan their parade
but several smart cookies saw through this charade!
The present they saw was a sore sight to see
so I got them talking about history!
I'm sure you agree, it's a credit to me,
that now we're a part of the
AAAAAAAA TTTTTTTTTTT DDDDDD!
In the first ATD, with my HFBoards know how
I built a team, that I think most would allow
was the best overall, the pride of Regina
On April 1st I drafted a player with a......long history of international achievements for Canada.
With 20 teams now, it's been brought up a peg, I see
and this time, no one drafted Manny Legace
Of these 20 teams, only two remain,
they are about to play their 6th game!
We'll give you that game, at whatever the cost
but first, let's hear from the GMs that lost!
Chuck Norris: My forwards were soft!
Manda: My defense all looked lost!
Gipper: Picking Malkin crippled my team!
Loxcane: All my stars were on defense!
Leafyy: Dressing Draper made no sense!
Vin: Couldn't score on St. Patrick, it seems!
SOW: Too many times on the reach list!
Joyzee: Too many picks missed!
Armster: Got burned trading for number one!
Sakic91: Brodeur's overrated!
HHH: A first round matchup we hated!
Jarek: After that series, my team was done!
Can Opener: Besides center, my team's toast!
Commie Ninja: Hull hates playing Provost!
TKabs: I guess Schmidt's not God!
TI: The system was flawed!
Detox: Yes, arguing with Dreakmur is paaaaaaaaaain
Dreakmur: I'm glad to be here in the ATD final!
Spinner: And I'm glad to be back again!
70slord: So strap on your helmets, and hold on to your sticks,
Spinner leads 3-2, and we're set for game six!

Enter players from both teams in full gear.
Enter Josef Kompalla, carrying the puck

Josef Kompalla: And now to begin, you boys best play nice!
No hits from behind, keep your sticks on the ice!
Mikita: And why in the effing, hell is he reffing?
Firsov: Do not worry comrade, he doesn't think I'm bad!
Kompalla: Alright now, good luck, I'm dropping the puck!
Lach: The faceoff, I won it
Pilote: He's coming, get on it!
Mantha: Never fear, I delivered a hit!
Pilote: Well there goes an outlet pass,
to the Bomber, he skates fast
Conacher: I took the first shot on net!
Bower: You can't score that easy!
Hall: I'm feeling real queasy
I think I might run to the john.
H. Pulford: You already went there.
Hall: Alright, your point's fair
all my stomach contents are gone.
But here come the Chiefs, this attack won't be brief
But I promise you boys, I'll stand tall!
I'm the one and only, the true "Mr. Goalie"
All Spartans: Yes Heeeeeeee's Glennnnnnnn Halllllllllllll!

enter Seventieslord

70slord: And so went the first, neither team looking worse
it seems like a goaltending battle
but all same, let's get back to the game, enough of hearing my prattle!
Now where did we leave off when we saw the curtains fall?
Dreakmur: I believe we were talking about Mr. Goalie, Glenn Hall.

sound of needle scratching a record

Howe: Mr. Goalie you say? I'll do you one better
I'm Mr. Hockey, that's my name to the letter!
Not Mr. Forward, or Mr. Right Wing
I'm Mr. Hockey, that's right, the whole thing!
And why do they give me this prestigious title?
Because I do everything, my presence is vital!
I throw hits! (thump!)
I work corners! (smack!)
I send passes! (Hey Gordie!)
I score goals!
Foster Hewitt: He shoots, he scores, and the crowd goes insane!
Adams: Yes, Gordie's the best, to see it is plain!
It's only one goal, that's a credit to Hall,
but we're up 1-0, hey thanks China Wall!
Bower: You said my name sir, a name that is apt,
a reflection of all of the pucks that I've trapped
playing hockey, with no Mongolians to keep out...
Dave Bidini: Have you read my book? That's what it's about!

Everyone laughs. Dave Bidini leaves awkwardly, as the pit band plays "The Ballad Of Wendel Clark"

70slord: One more frame to go, and I'd like to get crackin'
but the Hot Stove is on, god damn that Al Strachan!

Mikita: Our season's on the line, we must score
we must find a way to break down the China Wall
Fetisov: Victory's within our grasp, we must defend
we must fina a way to stooooop them alllllllllll
Mikita: I'll fire a shot!
Conacher: And a shot!
Firsov: And a shot!
Cook: And a shot!
Bower: But fools, I'll stop them all!
I'll make saves on most, get help from the post
while our shot-blockers answer the call!
Patrick: From start to the end, the play's in their end
I'm sure that my players will score!
Yes, that Johnny Bower's a tower of Bower, but how long will he shut us out for?
Mikita: the clock's winding down, let's take this to town!
Hall: And I'll go for an extra man!
Fetisov: I'm sure Jolly Jack, we'll be on my back,
taking penalties wasn't the plan.
Leetch: It's a 6 on 4, a chance now to score!
Pilote: I'll try to set Conacher up!
Bower: I'll kick out a toe, and whaddya know, it's a stop.
Gilmour: I'll grab the rebound, and fire it down
as far away as it can get
but where did it go?
Lo and behold
it went into the empty net
the game, it is done, it seems we have won!
It seems that we're going to be
The champions
Johnny Bower: The Champions!
Gordie Howe: The Champions of the ATD!
All Chiefs: The Champions, the champions, of the ATD
ooooooooof theeeeeee AAAAAAA TTTTTTT DDDDDDDDD

All exit, and return for a curtain call, as pit band play "the Hockey song" Dreakmur and Spinner are the last to take their bow, and are given a standing ovation.

 

[Leaf Lander]

You should see some of the ones from the LC ATDs. Some of those wer pretty epic!

Here's a write-up from Communist Ninja, who I think is Johnny Engine here:

so crazy people there have atds too

go wan

I think that was my main point!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kimberly in 6.

Stars:

1. Orr
2. Hasek
3. Potvin

 

[Derick*]

Thanks for coming through and not waiting unnecessarily to release the results TDMM.

I answered every claim against my team that was stated in the thread, and everyone who bothered to discuss them appeared to agree with me. It is discouraging to "lose" and not be told why, and it forces me to assume the reasons were invalid (seed, glance at the rosters not considering the arguments, etc.)

But I can't be surprised or angry. It's a consequence of the structure of it and to be expected.

 

[Sturminator]

But I can't be surprised or angry.

Nor should you be. Just because you win an argument does not mean you'll win a series. Bugg built a strong team. Your first unit was awesome, but your lower units left much to be desired and featured too many reaches for lesser modern players. It was your first draft and you probably learned a ton about older players throughout the process. You acquitted yourself quite well, but you lost to a guy who slipped a couple of semi-abusive trades under the radar and built himself a very top-heavy team. Come back next year and I'm sure you'll do better.