ATD #9 Lineup Assassination Thread

[God Bless Canada]

I don't see how your estimation of TOI works with Howe and Cleghorn on seperate pairings, GBC, unless he's also giving Schoenfeld and Patrick close to the same minutes (minus a few for differences in special teams time) and just hardly icing his third pairing.



This is an argument I've never understood. Even the best defensive defenseman in the world can only cover half the ice. You don't need two puck movers on a tandem, but the ability of one player to cover for the other defensively seems to be vastly overrated around here. You put Doug Harvey out there with Hal Gill and they're going to get lit up by ATD players because Harvey can only do his job in the defensive zone. I've never been a proponent of completing a defensive pairing on the cheap.



James Patrick on a first pairing?! This is a guy who peaked at 9th in all-star voting for defensemen (91-92) and received zero votes for most of his career. Patrick never so much as played in an all-star game. On a first pairing, James Patrick would get destroyed.

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Ok, enough of that. I'll do a more-or-less full review of Lada because it's one of my favorite teams in the draft, and not so "dark" a horse as GBC suggests, I think. This is nik's second entry, and I've liked them both quite a lot. We seem to have switched a few players from ATD#8 to this draft - I've got Ullman, Northcott, Stuart and Dryden from the old Seattle team and nik's got Gretzky and...Federko. Yeah, ok, maybe I'm more a fan of his teams than he is of mine. Ah well.

Lada is a very strong entry. Gretzky - Cook is a tremendous spearhead for the attack and is probably better than Gretzky - Bathgate not because of a real difference in talent between the RWs, but because Cook's style complements Gretz's better. Who to place in the left wing is an interesting question. There is a certain lack of toughness in the top 6 with really only Cook and Tonelli playing a power game, so it is probably best to use Bobrov on the top line and slot Tonelli in next to Federko and Middleton. Bobrov - Gretzky - Cook will not play much defense, but they sure will score.

I think Tonelli - Federko - Middleton is a good second line and Federko's record as a playoff scorer is underrated. The wings are both strong defensively and Tonelli brings toughness and the ability to win the puck. Overall, Lada's scoringlines are among the best in the draft.

Cleghorn - Howe is an excellent 1-2 punch on defense, but I don't see how both players will get the icetime they deserve if they're on seperate pairings. The difference between Cleghorn/Howe and Schoenfeld/Patrick is rather extreme. I think you're better off icing a terrific Cleghorn - Howe 1st pairing and just leaning on them for as many minutes as they can play. Schoenfeld - Patrick is a weak second pairing, but I still think this is your best bet. Schoenfeld is fine as a second pairing defenseman; he's not high-end, but he's very solid in his own zone, he's physical and his skating is adequate.

James Patrick should not be on a second pairing, though, nevermind a first. He was simply never that great a player. He played for a long time, but was considered a top-10 defenseman exactly once in his career. His credentials are those of a marginal 3rd pairing or 7th defenseman - they are remarkably similar to Fredrik Olausson's, just as a point of reference. I can't really suggest a good solution to the problem of your second pairing. Marois is no improvement and Schoenfeld - Hajt, while better defensively, would not move the puck, at all. It is a weakness I think you'll just have to live with.

Fortunately, it is Lada's only weakness that is really worth discussing. Lumley is on the lower end of goalies, but that is a given and doesn't need to be beaten around too much.

I watched James Patrick play, and I watched Freddy Olausson play, and I can tell you Patrick was a better player. Maybe not more talented - Olausson had great ability highlighted by a world-class shot. But Patrick had the consistency that Olausson often lacked.

I always viewed Patrick as underrated. (Strange to say that about a guy who played his best days with the Rangers, but the Rangers often got overlooked in the 80s). He was an outstanding skater with good size, strong creativity and a two-way presence. He was very effective in his own zone. And he was good enough to play for Canada at the 87 Canada Cup, at a time when Canada had a lot of outstanding defencemen to choose from. (Which I consider a hell of a lot more impressive than the all-star sham...er...game).

I would probably go with the Cleghorn-Howe tandem, too, but a lot of guys in this draft prefer to spread their top two defencemen out, rather than have them on separate pairings.

 

[Evil Sather]

*I think Dillon should be on the second line. He finished in the top 10 in goals six times, and top five in points twice. He's a very, very underrated offensive producer. On the other hand, Stanley gives you a little more sandpaper, and you need that for a line with Weiland and Hull.
*I think Ricci's better as an MLD player. Too many good defensive centres out there for him to be selected; witness Art Chapman.
*When I look at your spare forwards, the word redundant comes to mind. Rogers and Pederson are good enough to be spare offensive forwards in a 32-team draft. But I wouldn't want both on my team.
*You went with a brick wall approach, and you'll need it with your goaltender. Richter is unequivocally the worst No. 1 goalie in this draft. There are probably eight to 10 back-ups who are better goalies than Richter. Richter's a good back-up in this draft. In fact, I think Al Rollins is your real No. 1 goalie.
*Tarasov's a great coach, but we'll see with how he handles the players. We're talking about the guy who said he would never want Carl Brewer on his team because Brewer was "too individual." There aren't a lot of free spirits on this team, but Tarasov can be even more difficult to play for than Punch Imlach.

* Do I want 'good' 2nd and 3rd lines, or an ace 3rd line who can check, defend, skate, and score a lot better than most 3rd lines? Seems like an easy choice.

* Ricci is exactly what you want out of a 4th line center, grit out of his ears, solid skating, and a good defensive/PK presence to go with experience. Personal preference past like pick 400, right?

* My team has a lot of defensive talent/hard workers up front, and lacks superskilled puck handlers past the 1st line. I think having 2 offensive first slick guys gives me a lot of options for an injury on the top line/matchup decisions that the rest of my roster couldn't fill in.

* Post expansion coaches get the shaft here because we know their faults; even the drafts consensus best coach, Scotty Bowman, can be pointed to in Buffalo for screwing up. Lester Patrick, Tommy Gorman, Tommy Ivan, we see "classy, innovative, brilliant, etc." and have to take it at face value, but never any faults of theirs the way a Tarasov or an Imlach gets later, though Tarasov was a commie jerk and Imlach was such a ******* and maybe that's why their notoriety followed them. It's slippery.

* Finally, leaving my last point for the target of scorn, Mike Richter. I can't believe you can say Richter is an average backup (thats what 8-10 backups being better than him make him in a 32 team draft). A lot of guys people never saw, so they have to point to stats. Richter's stats aren't jaw dropping. I know the arguments statheads give. 1 40 win season, only 24 SO in his career, failed to bring the Rangers to the playoffs his last 5 years. No Vezina.

We all know he has the Cup. Solid international experience, too. Silver in the 2002 games at the end of the line. But he has something precious few goaltenders in this draft have, and that's experience beating and the capability to dominate super-teams like he did in the 1996 World Cup. By many accounts he single-handedly won the United States that Championship. He was awarded the MVP in what was one of the finest performances by a goalie ever.

Team USA didn't beat Canada in 1996. Mike Richter did...

The man with the Lady Liberty goalie mask possessed rapier-like reflexes that brought the crowd to its feet. His concentration was second to none, and his one on one ability, especially on clear cut breakaways, were otherworldly. There may have been no goalie in history who was better on breakaways...

The Americans put the responsibility of achieving their destiny in the glove hand of Mike Richter. Richter was in mid season form during the entire tournament, but only got stronger as the games became more meaningful. By the time the best of 3 finals came along, Richter was simply in a zone few goalies could reach. Especially in that deciding game, where he very well might have stolen the World Cup away from the first nation of hockey single-handedly.

Yet Richter frustrated not only the 20 Canadians on the ice, but the 30 million at home as well. He spectacularly devoured anything that came his way. It was a classic performance in as big a game as there is in hockey. You will never see a better performance in a game of such consequence.

He was that damn good.

On good teams, Richter was good. He failed at times (center ice whiff vs. the Penguins in 1992 comes to mind) but he also came up huge, "the save" on Bure in Game 3 of the Cup Finals, the World Cup. But he gets a bad rap for when the Rangers were bad. I know the post is long, but I'm going to go off a little here.

You don't know Richter. You don't. The same way I don't know Kirk McLean or Mattias Ohlund or Trevor Linden. I know of them, I've seen them play, but not day-in and day-out. This draft is such we often have to rely on stats because there isn't other evidence, like detailed first hand accounts. And let me tell you something about Mike Richter and those Rangers teams after Colin Campbell was let go (1997-98 was a team bereft of talent or energy. Look at the hockeydb roster, I'd be happy to go over it with you).

For four solid years, from John Muckler, to Ron Low, to Bryan Trottier, the Rangers had no system. None. Trust me. As in they tried to play 1980s Oilers hockey with 1/10th the talent and 1/10th the speed. There was no such thing as defensive zone coverage. Organized breakouts were rare. Defensive forwards and checkers were non existant after the Keane and Skrudland debacle. Short of a Todd Harvey or a really pissed Alex Kovalev, no one hit anyone, ever. Three forwards would routinely go behind the goal line, get trapped, and see 3 on 2s, 3 on 1s, and 2 on 1s go the other way.

You might think I'm exaggerating. I'm not. If pnep or someone has a stat on odd-man rushes per game, it's going to be a staggering amount. Ten a game would not surprise me. And only because his reflexes and lateral movement was ungodly did the Rangers do as well as they did game after game. For four years.

When Bryan Trottier got here, he spent his entire time instituting "3rd man high". The team couldn't or wouldn't get it until December. "Look, Sam" JD would crow, "the center is playing back! That's for defensive purposes! They'e been working on this since August!" Yes, something 12 year olds do normally was actually trumpeted as a major achievement. You can't imagine the disorganization. That they were in as many games as they were is almost entirely because of Mike Richter.

So when people get on Richter for those last 5 years, they don't know. They just don't. Dominik Hasek is other wordly, a top-3 goaltender in my eyes. But he was sure helped. Those Sabres played a hard core trap behind him, collapsed well behind him, cleared the net for him. Richter never was Hasek, but he got ZERO help. That Chuck Rayner and Al Rollins (my acutal #1?!?!) are given passes for awful records because their teams were bad but Richter gets slagged in just wrong.

A list of the defensemen Richter was forced to play behind after 1997: a DONE Bruce Driver, Alexander Karpotsev, Jeff Finley, a DONE Doug Lidster, Eric Cairns, Chris Tamer, Peter Popovic, Rumun Ndur, Stan Neckar, a DONE Kevin Hatcher, Stephane Quintal, a DONE Sylvain Lefebvre, Rich Pilon, Dale Purinton, a DONE Alexei Gusarov, Brad Brown, an apathetic Vladimir Malakhov, a still recovering Bryan Berard, Dave Karpa, Igor Ulanov, Tom "Porta" Poti, Darren Van Impe, and Cory Cross. That's 23 horrendous, awful players in front of you. Exactly how was anyone supposed to overcome that?

 

[Sturminator]

I watched James Patrick play, and I watched Freddy Olausson play, and I can tell you Patrick was a better player. Maybe not more talented - Olausson had great ability highlighted by a world-class shot. But Patrick had the consistency that Olausson often lacked.

I've seen them play, as well. Was Patrick better than Olausson - yeah, defensively, at least. But that's not the point. You actually make the point quite well: James Patrick had a lot of consistency. He was consistently a very good defenseman. The problem is that he was never great, even at his best, and this is a draft of greats. In an ATD context, even second pairing defensemen should have been dominant players, at least at their peaks. James Patrick never was.

I am deeply confused by your lukewarm take on Chara as a #4 defenseman and simultaneous advice to move Patrick to the first pairing (although you now seem to agree with me that Cleghorn - Howe is probably a better idea). Chara is vastly more dominant than Patrick ever was. I don't see how you can deny that. What gives?

 

[nik jr]

Last review of the day...

*This is one of my favourite teams of the draft. If you had to ask me for a darkhorse, this would be it. They're in a tough division, but this is a very, very well-rounded team.

Ok, enough of that. I'll do a more-or-less full review of Lada because it's one of my favorite teams in the draft, and not so "dark" a horse as GBC suggests, I think.

thank you, GBC and sturm.

i thought about howe and cleghorn together, but i decided to keep them separate b/c i want one on the ice to coordinate the offense and move the puck.

patrick is not ideal for the 2nd pairing, but i think he's OK, b/c he's steady. he's not there for offense, but just smart, simple play. i think he's perfectly fine as a 3rd pairing D.

cleghorn and howe will get more TOI than their partners, b/c of special teams and b/c they take longer shifts. sometimes they'll be on the ice together, end of the games, shift changes, but not often.

i agree that physicality is a weakness.


imo:

strengths:
puck movement and transition
offense
PP
1st line
smart players

weaknesses:
physicality
some one dimensional forwards
goaltending
average D

 

[vancityluongo]

Very good character spread all-around. Sakic and Potvin are both excellent captains at any level.
Conacher-Ovechkin may be the best LW punch in the draft. Ovie is just a kid, but he will probably be named to 3 consecutive 1rst all-star teams at the end of this year, as well as winning a Rocket Richard and Art Ross trophies.
I do not see Doug Weight as a 4th line center. He would be better as a 13th forward.
Moog is a good backup.
The defense is good, but I have heard that Flash Hollett was somewhat of a liability defensively.

Thanks for the review. Agreed on all points, other then I think Doug Weight is a more then legitimate 4th line C, possibly even a lower end 3rd scoring line guy. I especially like him alongside Henderson and Randall, who both have a scoring touch and IMO, will fit well with Weight and his playmaking skills.

I'd say Weight and Lysiak are pretty much equal actually, and I'd still give an advantage to Weight. Weight's defensive game is underrated, and both were heavily geared toward playmaking. Only I think Weight has to be considered better than Lysiak in this aspect. Actually, Henderson - Weight - Randall could score their share of goals all the while being pretty decent defensively. Both Weight and Lysiak could be tougher players, but guys with their skills and more toughness more go like 400th than 700th.

I like Weight more then Lysiak, but I'm more then comfortable putting either of them on the 4th line. I'm also really comfortable with Willi Plett on the 3rd line, and Randall at defense. So yeah, I think I can mix and match with my forwards a bit if needed.

Random Thoughts on Teams:

The Winnipeg Jets:
-You've got the best active Captain as a sometimes alternate? Alternate captaincy between Potvin and Sakic sure, but if Sakic wears the "A", he should wear it every game.
-I don't dislike the players, but, I'm not sold on your 2nd or 3rd pairings as shutdown pairings. Seems a waste to use Pronovost/Potvin in that role.
-Best 3rd line in the draft.
-Never hear me say anything bad about Holecek, top 10 IMO. Moog should be a great back-up for him.
-Solid 1st line, but overall, your wings may lack playmaking ability.
-Your best team yet. I'm curious to see this roster in some head to head match-ups.

For serial? Is too much leadership a bad thing now?

I only did that because I thought the "captaincy" was more of a formal kind of thing that we only do in the ATD to make it realistic, but if we're actually supposed to consider who team captains are as a factor of voting, then I'll change that.

Also, for the 2nd and 3rd pairings, I didn't want to have a "true shutdown" pairing. Last time, my team got a ton of crap because i had guys like Terry Harper and Ken Daneyko on my second pairing, and apparently I'd have no offense from the defense. So I tried to balance things out this time with nice two way guys like Johansson and to some extent Abel, while I have a defensive specialist in Macoun, and a offensive PP QB type guy in Hollett.

I know most of you think that Macoun is going to be overworked with Hollett, but I'm thinking of possibly switching up that pairing. Potvin-Pronovost is going to stay together; I think they'd be less effective playing with one of my other four guys. I'd love some suggestions of how I could change things up, because I'm seeing a lot of comments about my pairings, but no one seems to think that I chose the wrong personnal.

Thanks for the review though Nalyd.

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

Clark Gillies - Cyclone Taylor - Yvan Cournoyer
Herbie Lewis - Marty Barry - Jarome Iginla
Craig Simpson - Phil Watson - Tommy Phillips
Gilles Tremblay - Vladimir Shadrin - Eric Nesterenko

Scott Niedermayer - Moose Vasko
Gus Mortson - Wally Stanowski
Gary Bergman - George Owen

Dominik Hasek
Dave Kerr

A solid all-around lineup with no glaring strengths or weaknesses. The only problem I can foresee is the questions marks around Cyclone's era and level of competition, but besides for that you have a very balanced team.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

A solid all-around lineup with no glaring strengths or weaknesses.

I think goal is a strength. This current postseason not withstanding.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Vancouver Millionaires review...

*A feast or famine club. Their goal-scoring and goaltending is among the best in the draft. And they have a coach who's perfect for this team. (Although I think Quinn does need an assistant to help with strategies and tactics). But their defence and team defence is among the draft's worst. Overall team defence is likely the worst.
*The top three lines should have no problem scoring. The Forsberg-Hull tandem is one of the most potent in the draft. I believe Kamensky has experience playing with Forsberg. At his best, Kamensky was one of the top two or three LWs in the world, and he gives Forsberg another scoring option.
*It's not that Mahovlich is out of place as a No. 2 LW; it's just there were better options out there. Bert Olmstead would have been an awesome bookend for this line. But Mahovlich gives you excellent size and speed to play with the fleet-footed Richard and Mullen. Again, scoring won't be a problem for this line, and Mahovlich and Richard can play against the opponent's top line.
*Kovalev's out-of-position, but the third line should be able to score. For a third scoring line, Kovalev and Larouche are not out of place. Smyl opens up room.
*The fourth line gives you toughness, but I'm not sure if Nemchinov can be counted on for a shut-down role in an ATD context, and Williams definitely wasn't a big factor defensively.
*Ramsey and Morrow are rocks. You might want to look at having them on the same pairing for a strong shut-down pairing, because it would give you something you could have out there against the opponent's top line.
*Carlyle might be the worst No. 1 defenceman in the draft, outside of Eric DesJardins. I like Carlyle a lot, but he should be a No. 2. A nice two-way defenceman, but you can't rely on him too much.
*I still think Gonchar is better served as a third-pairing offensive specialist.
*I really like Samuelsson as a towering No. 7. He was nearly impossible to get around, thanks to his size and reach.
*It's a good thing you have Patrick Roy, because he's going to face a lot of rubber playing behind your team, and with Quinn as the coach. I have Roy as my No. 2 goalie ever (behind Jacques Plante), but he'll need to play the best hockey of his life. He could be facing 40 shots a night, fired at him by teams loaded with future HHOFers.

Vancouver Millionares

Coach: Pat Quinn
Captain: Randy Carlyle
Assistant captain: Peter Forsberg
Assistant captain: Brett Hull
Assistant captain: Mike Ramsey

Valeri Kamensky-Peter Forsberg-Brett Hull
Pete Mahovlich-Henri Richard-Joe Mullen
Alexei Kovalev-Pierre Larouche-Stan Smyl
Kirk Maltby-Sergei Nemchinov-Tiger Williams

spares: Datsyuk, Ferraro

Randy Carlyle-Ken Morrow
Sergei Gonchar-Mike Ramsey
Dave Babytch-Robert Svehla

spare: Kjell Samuelsson

Patrick Roy
Jean Sebastien Giguere

 

[God Bless Canada]

Dallas Freeze's review...

*I like the talent on the top line. Not sure if they're going to be able to handle some of the teams in the division with speed and team toughness. I don't know if Pronovost is good enough to be the guy that Robitaille and Dionne need. They need someone to open up room for them, which Pronovost should be able to do, but they also need someone who can convert their chances. I'd like Pronovost for that role on the second line. Not for the first.
*Someone must really like Dick Duff's big-game ability and defensive presence, because I don't think any of us thought he'd ever be a second line winger in the ATD.
*Thornton and Loob should be a sensational offensive tandem. At least in the regular season.
*Was John Ferguson really good enough defensively to play on what should be a very capable shut-down line? Against some of the top offensive RWs in this division, he could be a liability.
*Brad Richards will really come in handy once the playoffs start. One of the best clutch players in the league.
*Defence is a much-improved effort from the last draft. In the last draft, your best defensive defenceman was Larry Robinson. You'll have one of the best shut-down pairings, and one of the best overall pairings, in this draft, with Harvey-Boivin. And the Johnson-Huddy tandem will also be very, very good.
*Daneyko-McSorley will be tough, but I think they should be used sparingly. I don't think McSorley is good enough to take a regular shift; I think he's better as a No. 7 who can be plugged into the line-up if the series gets ugly.
*Broda's probably the best goalie in our division.
*I like Lemaire. I think he's good enough to be an ATD coach. But I think you took him too soon. Lemaire should not be selected ahead of guys like Ivan, Day or Irvin, all of whom were excellent defensive coaches.

Coach: Jacques Lemaire

Luc Robitaille // Marcel Dionne // Jean Pronovost
Dick Duff // Joe Thornton // Hakan Loob
John Ferguson // Neal Broten // Jere Lehtinen
Red Berenson // Brian Skrudland // Brad Richards
Slava Kozlov // Milan Hejduk

Doug Harvey // Leo Boivin
Tom Johnson // Charlie Huddy
Marty McSorley // Ken Daneyko
Larry Hillman

Turk Broda // Bill Ranford

 

[chaosrevolver]

Anyone wanna do a review of mine? Its been posted twice. I can guess what you will say..but the hell with it. Fire Away. Check the last page and first page.

 

[Spitfire11]

Montreal Sarasaurusrex​

Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Jack Stewart
Assistant Captain: Bobby Hull
Assistant Captain: Craig MacTavish​

#9 Bobby Hull - #13 Mickey MacKay - #17 Jari Kurri
#91 Paul Kariya - #19 Butch Goring - #8 Cecil "Babe" Dye
#27 Harry Watson - #14 Craig MacTavish - #20 Cliff Koroll
#12 Stan Jonathan - #26 Mel Bridgman - #11 Duane Sutter
#18 Dave "The Hammer" Schultz - #24 Erich Kühnhackl

#5 Jack "Blackjack" Stewart - #7 Alexei Kasatonov
#3 Ching Johnson - #6 Stefan Persson
#25 Petr Svoboda - #4 Kevin Hatcher
#44 Mike Milbury

#35 Tony Esposito
#1 Chico Resch

Power Play #1:
Bobby Hull- Mickey MacKay - Jari Kurri
Jack Stewart - Stefan Persson

Power Play #2:
Paul Kariya - Butch Goring - Cecil Dye
Alexei Kasatonov- Kevin Hatcher

Penalty Kill #1:
Butch Goring - Cliff Koroll
Jack Stewart - Alexei Kasatonov

Penalty Kill #2:
Craig MacTavish - Duane Sutter
Ching Johnson - Petr Svoboda
​

​

​

- Well the obvious is the lack of a true 1st line centre, but still a very good top line.
- Very tough team, one of the toughest in the draft, no one will be taking liberties with the likes of Stewart, Watson, Hull amongst many others.
- I might be one of the few, but I like Jack Stewart over Gadsby
- I think you might have gone a little overboard trying to add grit and have quite a few high PIM guys, and a bottom 6 that won't produce much scoring, probably the biggest weakness on the team.
- The defense isn't outstanding, but very good. A Stewart-Johnson pairing would be badass and a great option if opposing teams have a big top line.
- I don't have a problem with Tony, and Resch is one of my favourite backups

 

[ck26]

I don't know if Pronovost is good enough to be the guy that Robitaille and Dionne need. They need someone to open up room for them, which Pronovost should be able to do, but they also need someone who can convert their chances. I'd like Pronovost for that role on the second line. Not for the first.
*Someone must really like Dick Duff's big-game ability and defensive presence.
*Was John Ferguson really good enough defensively to play on what should be a very capable shut-down line?

Coach: Jacques Lemaire

Luc Robitaille // Marcel Dionne // Jean Pronovost
Dick Duff // Joe Thornton // Hakan Loob
John Ferguson // Neal Broten // Jere Lehtinen
Red Berenson // Brian Skrudland // Brad Richards
Slava Kozlov // Milan Hejduk

Doug Harvey // Leo Boivin
Tom Johnson // Charlie Huddy
Marty McSorley // Ken Daneyko
Larry Hillman

Turk Broda // Bill Ranford

A couple responses and a critique of my own.
Pronovost not good enough to convert their chances? He who scored 40 four times and 50 once?

The roles balance out. That's going to be a theme. Pronovost is under-skilled (for normal 1st line status), but Dionne / Robitaille are over-skilled, and (IMO) Pronovost provides everything they lack. Trois Quebecois is kinda cool as well. Same with the 2nd line (Duff weak but Thornton/Loob strong, and Duff provides the toughness, hard work and playoff clutch money-ness). The roles balance. Ferguson isn't your standard 3LW, but against Richard / Messier / Neely / etc, I want Ferguson's mean alongside Broten and Lehtinen's total package plus Tom Johnson's slick ... that's a LW / LD pairing with all you need. Ferguson was skilled enough to skate with Beliveau, he's good enough to be the grit forward on a two-way defensive line. (Provided he can catch them) Ferguson can't wait to abuse the little Bentleys.

#9 Johnny Bucyk-#15 Milt Schmidt-#8 Cam Neely
#27 Shayne Corson-#25 Jacques Lemaire-#18 Steve Larmer
#35 Mike McPhee-#11 Wayne Merrick-#20 Bobby Rousseau
#12 Brenden Morrow-#14 Glen Skov-#13 Blair Russell

DEFENCEMEN
#19 Larry Robinson-#3 Clarence "Hap" Day
#6 Doug "Diesel" Mohns-#5 Bill Barilko
#10 Ted Harris-#7 Brad Maxwell

GOALTENDERS
#30 Gerry "Cheesy" Cheevers
#31 Hugh "Old Eagle Eyes" Lehman

Really tough, stay-at-home defense, but I don't like half-forward / half-defensemen (Mohns) to be in the lineup as defensemen. Even next to Barilko, having a guy who played half his career at forward as a 3/4 raises eyebrows. His best hockey was as Stan Mikita's left winger ... and he's playing defense? Err ...

I rate Cheevers as one of the worst starters, but in my mind that only comes into play against the Haseks and Drydens, not everone. Your defense is solid (except the aformentioned Mohns) and Cheevers isn't going to lose any games on his own.

I think Neely's overrated but your first line is good. Remind me a bit of Philly's Legion of Doom, but better. Mean and balanced ... I can see any of the three scoring goals off both the others. Corson and Larmer are interesting ... Corson's as out of place on a 2nd line as Dick Duff, but in the role of grinder I buy it (as I do with Duff). Don't know if Lemaire and Larmer together are enough to carry a viable scoring 2nd line. Both the guys (Lafleur/Cournoyer and Savard/Roenick) always had huge help in putting up their gaudy numbers, and I don't think Lemaire is as good as Roenick was or Larmer Lafleur ... not as good as what the other is used to playing with, if that makes sense.

Lemaire (obviously), McPhee (obviously) and Morrow (also obviously) are three of my favorite two-way forwards. Blair Russell is a wildcard probably best left for the MLD, but I don't recall ever voting one team ahead of another based on a 4th line winger.

 

[Sturminator]

Montreal Sarasaurusrex​

Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Jack Stewart
Assistant Captain: Bobby Hull
Assistant Captain: Craig MacTavish​

#9 Bobby Hull - #13 Mickey MacKay - #17 Jari Kurri
#91 Paul Kariya - #19 Butch Goring - #8 Cecil "Babe" Dye
#27 Harry Watson - #14 Craig MacTavish - #20 Cliff Koroll
#12 Stan Jonathan - #26 Mel Bridgman - #11 Duane Sutter
#18 Dave "The Hammer" Schultz - #24 Erich Kühnhackl

#5 Jack "Blackjack" Stewart - #7 Alexei Kasatonov
#3 Ching Johnson - #6 Stefan Persson
#25 Petr Svoboda - #4 Kevin Hatcher
#44 Mike Milbury

#35 Tony Esposito
#1 Chico Resch

Power Play #1:
Bobby Hull- Mickey MacKay - Jari Kurri
Jack Stewart - Stefan Persson

Power Play #2:
Paul Kariya - Butch Goring - Cecil Dye
Alexei Kasatonov- Kevin Hatcher

Penalty Kill #1:
Butch Goring - Cliff Koroll
Jack Stewart - Alexei Kasatonov

Penalty Kill #2:
Craig MacTavish - Duane Sutter
Ching Johnson - Petr Svoboda
​

​

​

My first impression of the team is that it lacks something in direction. Many GMs like to wait on a center because there are many great ones available relatively late (Rick and I took our #1 center in the 4th, for example), but I think you waited too long. Hull is one of those guys who will perform with the proverbial grandmother and monkey on skates for linemates, so there's really no concern there, but I don't think Kurri is a guy whose offensive potential will fully come out next to an inferior center. Like pappy, I believe that Kurri is pretty consistently overdrafted relative to the other talents at his position: sometimes before Conacher and generally before Bathgate and Cook, both of whom I consider better players, overall. Kurri, I've got in a slightly lower tier at RW with Brett Hull. Not a big deal, but a player for whom a moderate value correction may be in order.

Goring is fine as a second line center, and I generally like the second line. Kariya is a strong playmaker to set up Dye, who I gather was all hands. I would consider placing Dye on the first unit power play over Kurri. The disconnect on the line is that Kariya won't have much help in transition. Persson was a fine puckmover in real life, but for an ATD 2nd pair, he's no better than average. Kariya and Dye are both strong offensive talents for a 2nd line, however, and this will be a unit that can disappear for stretches and then score a stunning goal out of nowhere.

The bottom lines are strong defensively and quite tough (though I am not a Stan Jonathan fan in the ATD main draft), but are very limited offensively. I think Kasatonov is a strong #2 and forms a well-balanced and extremely mobile top-pairing with Stewart. Johnson is an upper-tier number three and matches well with Persson, who is a decent puck-mover on a second pair. Svoboda and Hatcher is another strong pairing relative to their roster spots. There aren't really that many teams with the bottom-6 talent to take advantage of Hatcher's brain farts. A few, but not so many.

In general, the defense is quite good, and I think Tony O's playoff hiccups are overblown. The guy was a very good goalie. Goalies who give up infamous playoff softies seem to be unfairly dissected on this board - this accounts for Esposito and Durnan, especially. Every goalie gives up bad goals occasionally. Some guys get away with it because it happens at the end of a blowout and some seemingly have their whole careers defined by it.

Was Bill Buckner a poor fielder at first base? No, he was actually pretty good, he just picked a lousy time to boot the ball. Durnan and Esposito do, indeed, deserve to get knocked for their gaffes, but I think at least Espo gets knocked a little too hard (Durnan's draft position is still pretty lofty). There seems to be a perception around here that it is impossible to win in the playoffs with Tony Esposito, and I think that's wrong.

 

[God Bless Canada]

A couple responses and a critique of my own.
Pronovost not good enough to convert their chances? He who scored 40 four times and 50 once?

The roles balance out. That's going to be a theme. Pronovost is under-skilled (for normal 1st line status), but Dionne / Robitaille are over-skilled, and (IMO) Pronovost provides everything they lack. Trois Quebecois is kinda cool as well. Same with the 2nd line (Duff weak but Thornton/Loob strong, and Duff provides the toughness, hard work and playoff clutch money-ness). The roles balance. Ferguson isn't your standard 3LW, but against Richard / Messier / Neely / etc, I want Ferguson's mean alongside Broten and Lehtinen's total package plus Tom Johnson's slick ... that's a LW / LD pairing with all you need. Ferguson was skilled enough to skate with Beliveau, he's good enough to be the grit forward on a two-way defensive line. (Provided he can catch them) Ferguson can't wait to abuse the little Bentleys.

Really tough, stay-at-home defense, but I don't like half-forward / half-defensemen (Mohns) to be in the lineup as defensemen. Even next to Barilko, having a guy who played half his career at forward as a 3/4 raises eyebrows. His best hockey was as Stan Mikita's left winger ... and he's playing defense? Err ...

I rate Cheevers as one of the worst starters, but in my mind that only comes into play against the Haseks and Drydens, not everone. Your defense is solid (except the aformentioned Mohns) and Cheevers isn't going to lose any games on his own.

I think Neely's overrated but your first line is good. Remind me a bit of Philly's Legion of Doom, but better. Mean and balanced ... I can see any of the three scoring goals off both the others. Corson and Larmer are interesting ... Corson's as out of place on a 2nd line as Dick Duff, but in the role of grinder I buy it (as I do with Duff). Don't know if Lemaire and Larmer together are enough to carry a viable scoring 2nd line. Both the guys (Lafleur/Cournoyer and Savard/Roenick) always had huge help in putting up their gaudy numbers, and I don't think Lemaire is as good as Roenick was or Larmer Lafleur ... not as good as what the other is used to playing with, if that makes sense.

Lemaire (obviously), McPhee (obviously) and Morrow (also obviously) are three of my favorite two-way forwards. Blair Russell is a wildcard probably best left for the MLD, but I don't recall ever voting one team ahead of another based on a 4th line winger.

It's one thing to have Ferguson's "mean" to play against Richard, Neely and Messier. It's another thing to have the smarts and the mobility to keep up with them. He doesn't. I like Ferguson as a fourth line toughie who can get an occasional goal, stick up for his teammates and provide a great influence in the locker room, but that's it. He isn't good enough defensively to play that role.

He won't be able to keep up with the Bentley's. He's not fast enough, or smart enough. The Bentley's would eat John Ferguson alive.

As for Mohns: I'm a big fan of versatility in this thing. That's what makes guys like Mohns, Colville, Clapper and Siebert so valuable: they can get you quality minutes at different positions. We picked Mohns to be a defenceman, and that's where he'll play. He might see some time at LW on the PP and on a last-minute squad, but that's it. He's the type of guy we want out there against the Bentley's, with his skating ability, strength, hockey sense and toughness, but those attributes also will make him ideal in matching up against a guy like Jean Beliveau.

Mohns played a lot of time at defence. I'd say his best years were actually spent at defence. He was the only defenceman to reach 20 goals between the end of the Second World War, and the arrival of Bobby Orr. He was part of a rock-solid tandem with Fern Flaman in Boston in the 50s. He was a defenceman for six of the seven all-star games he was chosen to be part of. (Back when the all-star game actually meant something, before fan balloting and team representation rules spoiled the contest).

He was fine as an LW in Chicago, but most of his NHL career was at defence, and he was pretty damn good at it, too. Good enough to be a No. 2 defenceman in the ATD, and one of the best No. 3 defencemen in the draft.

As for Cheevers, the guy was terrific when it mattered most. It didn't matter if it was a 2-1 game, or a 6-5 game, when you needed that big save, he was there. He was terrific in the playoffs. That's why we picked him. If he as good as Turk Broda? No. Will he cost us a series? No. Can he steal us a game in a series? Yes. Will he make the big saves when it counts? Absolutely.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

GBC, I love your reviews and your insight...we all appreciate it man. Ill pick a bone about my team defence though. I paid a premium to get Roy - a top 3 goaltender on everyone list (unless they're certifiably insane), having stellar goaltending contributes to team defence as well. And with my lineup puck possesion wont be a problem, teams will be chasing me not vise versa...at least IMO and that is how I built the team.

 

[God Bless Canada]

GBC, I love your reviews and your insight...we all appreciate it man. Ill pick a bone about my team defence though. I paid a premium to get Roy - a top 3 goaltender on everyone list (unless they're certifiably insane), having stellar goaltending contributes to team defence as well. And with my lineup puck possesion wont be a problem, teams will be chasing me not vise versa...at least IMO and that is how I built the team.

It's great that you have Roy, but the team defence in front of him simply isn't good enough. The blue-line corps is inadequate, although, as I said before, I like Morrow and Ramsey as a tandem. Roy is going to be facing a lot of shots.

Puck possession should be strong, but keep in mind: you're facing teams loaded with HHOF talent, and great team concepts, such as Nanaimo. You'll be facing teams loaded with rock-solid defensive presence, such as Kootenay and Trail. And you'll be facing teams that are incredibly physical, such as Calgary. And that's just your division. You won't be able to win simply by playing keep away. That strategy doesn't work in this thing. Not with the talent each team can throw out there.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Montreal Sarasaurusrex:
-I for one really like your centers. They may not be elite, but they should compliment Hull really well, and with a player as awesome as Hull, complimenting him is priority #1.
-The second line is skilled, but can easily be out muscled, despite the manliest name in hockey history.
-The defense is tough to play, but may struggle to activate the offense.
-Goaltending is questionable.

Montreal Maroons:
-Speedy 1st line, but, I don't like lines where Morenz is the best defensive player. Not that he's bad, just too much pressure. Clark should make room though.
-One of the best 2nd lines. Francis should work very well with Conacher.
-Your bottom 6 and top 4 d-men should work great with your coach.
-Decent goaltending, Belfour is now a good pick up in a 32 team draft, pretty close to average.

Regina Pats:
-Obviously, awesome goaltending.
-Interesting 2nd line, not sure I like it though, but would be very interesting.
-Very well built 1st line. Not big on the talent, but I can really see that working well as a unit.
-Conversely, I'm not so fond of the build of the 3rd line. I think your 4th line may be more fearsome. Go Rat Go.
-Very defensive defense. Tough to play, but Duschene has his work cut out for him.

THE INGLEWOOD JACKS:
-Stellar 1st line.
-Nasty second line, but it will absolutely need Brian Leetch to be effective.
-Nice to see Lepine getting some love. Great shutdown guy. Him and Klukay should be effective.
-So thats where the offense on the blueline went. Solid corps.
-Effective budget goaltending.

Quebec Nordiques:
-I have questions about your #1 d-mans offensive contributions.
-A very solid overall team.
-Two question marks: Primeau and Oates may be redundant and reduce versatility down the middle. A lot of your checking liners are more low-end second liners.

Toronto Maple Leafs:
-Your 3rd line should get 2nd line minutes. Can handle itself in a lot of situations and Punch should love them. May even be your best line.
-Nice balance of toughness and offense on the blueline, defensive fundamentals may be questionable though.
-Biggest problem is your forward corps is sub-par offensively.

The St. Catharines Teepees:
-Not a fan of Sittler as a 1st liner. IMO, he's quite overrated.
-Good two-way play from your forwards, but a lack of size and toughness.
-Well done defense and goal.

Lada Togliatti:
-Probably the best 1st line in the draft, obviously the Great One is an advantage, but, still.
-Second line is soft but effective.
-Bottom 6 is well rounded, but doesn't stand out.
-Howe and Cleghorn are great but the rest of the defense fails to impress.
-Goaltending is solid.

St Louis Eagles:
-Scary 1st line, but defensively lacking.
-Well rounded and versitile bottom 9, but, no wow factor.
-Smart defense, but, may lack toughness.
-Your coach is probably your best asset.

Nanaimo Clippers:
-Very small forward corps. Most have heart and skill, but, they'll get pushed around.
-Flawless defense.
-Great goaltending, but, not sure how they'll hold up 80 games plus playoffs.

The Springfield Isotopes:
-Nothing really to say. Nothing wow's me, but, I can't see any real flaw. Only possible flaw is whether the team lacks an extra gear or not.

Kootenay Ice:
-Sick defense. Just excellent.
-Odd second line, could be interesting, but lacks a playmaker IMO.
-Nice checking lines, 3rd line has some offensive juice.
-Goaltending is streaky but potentially great.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Just realized, hadn't posted my roster:

The Minnesota Fighting Saints

GMs: Nalyd Psycho & FissionFire
Coach: Pat Burns
Captain: Jean Beliveau
Alternate Captains: Earl Seibert & Rod Langway

#7 Rick Martin-#4 Jean Beliveau-#18 Danny Gare
#9 Adam Graves-#8 Syd Howe-#10 Pavel Bure
#11! Nick Metz-#16 Bobby Holik-#28 Anders Kallur
#21! Bob Errey-#27! George "Red" Sullivan-#12 Bill Ezinicki

#5 Rod Langway-#17 Earl Seibert
#15! Alex Ragulin-#3! Eduard Ivanov
#55! Carol Vadnais-#20 Dallas Smith

#31! Harry "Hap" Holmes
#1 Mike Liut

Spares: #4! Hobey Baker; #2 Sylvain Lefebvre

Power Play Units
Graves-Beliveau-Bure
Vadnais-Seibert

Martin-Holik-Gare
Ragulin-Ivanov

Penalty Kill Units
Holik-Metz
Langway-Seibert

Sullivan-Kallur
Ragulin-Smith

 

[arrbez]

THE INGLEWOOD JACKS:
-Stellar 1st line.
-Nasty second line, but it will absolutely need Brian Leetch to be effective.
-Nice to see Lepine getting some love. Great shutdown guy. Him and Klukay should be effective.
-So thats where the offense on the blueline went. Solid corps.
-Effective budget goaltending.

Just curious what you mean by the highlighted statement? Are you referring to the line's ability to move the puck up the ice? Obviously Stewart is slow, but I feel both Roenick and Cook are quite fast, and certainly skilled enough to carry the disk into the zone.

 

[shawnmullin]

My roster was in the other thread, but I'll add it here.

Been busy, but will do some write ups later.

TRAIL SMOKE EATERS

Home Rink: Cominco Arena
GM: Shawn Mullin
Coach: Scotty Bowman
Assistant Coach: Claude Ruel
Captain: Bryan Trottier
Alternate Captain: Art Ross
Alternate Captain: Jim Peplinski

LW Aurele Joliat - C Bryan Trottier - RW Ken Hodge
LW Keith Tkachuk - C Igor Larionov - RW Martin St. Louis
LW Dean Prentice - C Rick MacLeish - RW Shane Doan
LW Dave Balon - C Joel Otto - RW Jim Peplinski

D Jacques Laperriere - D Harry Cameron
D Art Ross - D Leo Reise Jr.
D Dollard St. Laurent - D Joe Simpson

G Bill Durnan
G Charlie Hodge

Extras: LW/C Henrik Zetterberg, D Don Awrey

PP Unit 1: Joliat-Trottier-Hodge-Simpson-Cameron
PP Unit 2: Tkachuk-Larionov-St. Louis-Laperriere-Ross
PP Unit 3: Balon-MacLeish-Doan

PK Unit 1: Prentice-Otto-Laperriere-St. Laurent
PK Unit 2: Balon-Trottier-Ross-Reise Jr.
PK Unit 3: Larionov-Peplinski
PK Unit 4: Joliat-MacLeish

 

[pitseleh]

-Great goaltending, but, not sure how they'll hold up 80 games plus playoffs.

Thanks for the thoughts Nalyd. Just wanted to address this point because we thought it might come up. It's a bit of a double standard to question a goalies ability to withstand an increase in the number of games but not apply that standard to forwards. Players like Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips, Scotty Davidson, Bruce and Hod Stuart, and Dubbie Bowie never played more than 20 games in a season (and in many cases no more than 10 games) yet the games played question only seems to come up for goalies.

Benedict was able to post one of his best seasons (1927/28) playing 53 games. There are plenty of goalies who played from the late thirties through to the fifties (i.e. Frank Brimsek) who saw their games played rise from the 45-55 games that Benedict was playing towards the end of his career to the 70 game range over the course of their career. I think it's reasonable to assume that Benedict could bump up his workload to 60 regular season games and playoffs with Dzurillia picking up the remaining games in the regular season without a hit in performance based on a certain level of relativity in measuring accomplishments.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

It's a bit of a double standard to question a goalies ability to withstand an increase in the number of games but not apply that standard to forwards. Players like Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips, Scotty Davidson, Bruce and Hod Stuart, and Dubbie Bowie never played more than 20 games in a season (and in many cases no more than 10 games) yet the games played question only seems to come up for goalies.

None of those players will have near the impact their respective team's starting goalie will in their success or failure nor will most come close to playing a significant fraction of equal minutes. The goalies are scrutinized more than the forwards because of their unequaled impact not to mention their usually lofty draft status. The goalie starts thing doesn't really bother me at all come voting time to be honest.

 

[pitseleh]

Lada is a very strong entry. Gretzky - Cook is a tremendous spearhead for the attack and is probably better than Gretzky - Bathgate not because of a real difference in talent between the RWs, but because Cook's style complements Gretz's better. Who to place in the left wing is an interesting question. There is a certain lack of toughness in the top 6 with really only Cook and Tonelli playing a power game, so it is probably best to use Bobrov on the top line and slot Tonelli in next to Federko and Middleton. Bobrov - Gretzky - Cook will not play much defense, but they sure will score.

I mentioned this before, but I think Lada is a much stronger team with Bobrov on the second unit. He was known for being a cherry-picker who didn't like to backcheck, and I see the top line being much more effective with a gritty player like Tonelli there. Bobrov's offensive was around him controlling the puck and using his offensive skills, and I think it takes away from his ability to do that if you have players like Gretzky and Cook who also like to have the puck on their stick. Bobrov can play on the second unit away from the top defensive pressure giving him much more offensive freedom and a couple of linemates who can focus on playing a bit more of a two-way game.

I just want to say that I love Lada's team as a whole though. It's like you have a better version of the Bread Line (with Gretzky as a rich man's Boucher and Tonelli as a rich man's Cook) on the top line, solid depth through the lineup and two #1 defensemen.

 

[pitseleh]

None of those players will have near the impact their respective team's starting goalie will in their success or failure nor will most come close to playing a significant fraction of equal minutes. The goalies are scrutinized more than the forwards because of their unequaled impact not to mention their usually lofty draft status. The goalie starts thing doesn't really bother me at all come voting time to be honest.

I think that's a fair point, but I think you get into a slippery slope if you start getting down to that level of detail. There were older players who played 50-60 minutes a game over 50 game seasons, but it's unreasonable to assume they'd do anything of the sort in this draft. Goalies from the pre-WWII era played in every game, I just think it's a bit unfair to expect that they can't adapt to play in more games because they didn't have the opportunity to play in more games at the time.

 

[Sturminator]

I mentioned this before, but I think Lada is a much stronger team with Bobrov on the second unit. He was known for being a cherry-picker who didn't like to backcheck, and I see the top line being much more effective with a gritty player like Tonelli there. Bobrov's offensive was around him controlling the puck and using his offensive skills, and I think it takes away from his ability to do that if you have players like Gretzky and Cook who also like to have the puck on their stick. Bobrov can play on the second unit away from the top defensive pressure giving him much more offensive freedom and a couple of linemates who can focus on playing a bit more of a two-way game.

The problem is that although I agree with you that Tonelli is a better fit for the top line, Bobrov on the second line is a bad combination of players. All three of Bobrov, Federko and Middleton were guys who liked to carry the puck and make plays, and none of them was physical. Bobrov was a cherry picker and Federko wasn't much of a backchecker, leaving Middleton as the defensive conscience of the line - not a great situation. There's a ton of offensive talent in Bobrov - Federko - Middleton, but I don't see those players gelling well, at all.