ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

[overpass]

Not sure if this guy is good value here. He’s the worst even strength player taken so far. But I’d like another forward who can fill the net on the power play, and this guy is the best option left.

Camille Henry, C/LW

Led the NHL in power play goals in 1953-54 (20), 1957-58 (18), 1964-65 (16). His 20 power play goals in his rookie season in 1953-54 were a record until Bobby Hull broke it in 1965-66.

Feb 8, 1954, Montreal Gazette, Muzz Patrick on Henry:

"He has skills that you don't see in many players. It isn't just that he happens to be in the right place at the right time, though he has that faculty. You won't see him score any picture goals, either. But he scores goals in his own peculiar way.

"He got a big one for us against Boston and it looked like sheer luck. We had the pressure on and Leo Reise fired a pass to him that was knee high. He got his stick on it and flicked it into the net. He made about three moves on the play. Goals on deflections are considered lucky, but Henry gets too many that way. After you've seen him do it a few times you know it's skill."

Jan 12, 1958:

Camille weighs about 149 pounds soaking wet which he usually is after most of the games in the bruising, contact-filled sport. Most of his scores are made 10 to 20 feet from the opposing nets where he usually stations himself to await a teammate's pass or a stray disk.

"I figure being light helps me" he said. "I can sometimes squeeze in among the bigger men, get my stick in the way of the puck and get it past the goalie. If I was heavier I might not be able to maneuver so well."

Nov 1, 1958:

Phil Watson says of Camille Henry: "He has the best reflexes of any hockey player I've seen. He's like a cat. Never off balance and always with his eye on the puck. And he's an opportunist. That's why he scores so often when there's a scramble in front of the nets."

Feb 16, 1957:

Camille Henry seems to have that magic quality that makes a hockey player deadly around the net.

Descriptions of Camille Henry power play goals (I could be cherry picking these, but I'm not...just looking for any power play goals with descriptions, and I took the first 5 I found. They aren't easy to find in the free papers.)

1960: Little Camille Henry started New York back when he scored on a rebound while the Black Hawks were shorthanded...

1965: Stan Mikita...ripped a 50 footer. Henry tipped it into the post but Camille quickly scooped the rebound over a falling (goalie)...

1957: Camille climaxed a power play by flicking the disk past Jacques Plante from just outside the goal crease.

1954: Camille took XXXXX's perfect pass to the right of the goal and sent it into the net.

1963: Henry tied it three minutes later during a power play when his shot deflected in off Gadsby's stick.

I’ve created a simple adjusted power play goals stat. I already had one based on league power play scoring level, but that doesn’t work so well for a small league like the Original Six. This uses a baseline of the average power play goals of the #2 through #4 power play goal scorers, and sets that equal to 20 (basically 80s scoring level).

Here’s how Henry’s top 10 power play goal seasons compare to some of the prominent power play scorers drafted.

Player | Best | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | Top3 | Top5 | Top10
Phil Esposito | 36 | 29 | 28 | 28 | 24 | 23 | 21 | 20 | 19 | 16 | 93 | 145 | 244
Bobby Hull | 33 | 32 | 30 | 24 | 18 | 18 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 95 | 137 | 213
Camille Henry | 34 | 32 | 29 | 22 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 11 | 94 | 132 | 195
Mike Bossy | 32 | 29 | 25 | 20 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 16 | 8 | 6 | 86 | 125 | 191
Jean Beliveau | 28 | 25 | 24 | 22 | 20 | 20 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 16 | 77 | 118 | 209
Gordie Howe | 26 | 24 | 23 | 22 | 20 | 19 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 73 | 115 | 204
Mario Lemieux | 31 | 27 | 19 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 77 | 113 | 183
Tim Kerr | 29 | 26 | 25 | 21 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 80 | 111 | 141
Brett Hull | 27 | 24 | 21 | 21 | 17 | 17 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 73 | 110 | 187
Teemu Selanne | 28 | 28 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 74 | 109 | 176
Dave Andreychuk | 24 | 23 | 17 | 16 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 12 | 64 | 97 | 164
Joe Nieuwendyk | 25 | 21 | 18 | 16 | 16 | 13 | 12 | 12 | 10 | 10 | 64 | 97 | 153

Conclusion: Camille Henry was an awesome goal scorer on the power play.

(Now that I look at the results, this metric may be a bit friendly to Original Six guys, possibly because there were just far fewer guys in the role of power play goal scorers. Even so, Henry’s numbers were still extremely impressive.)

 

[seventieslord]

i think 70s has seen a game or 2 of harmon and may be able to say something about him.

At first I was like, "What??"

I might have seen a few clips in the NHL series "Stanley Cup Film" - I have a large archive of shows transferred from my PVR so I'll take a look. I don't think I'll get much out of it though.

Not sure if this guy is good value here. He’s the worst even strength player taken so far. But I’d like another forward who can fill the net on the power play, and this guy is the best option left.

Camille Henry, C/LW

Led the NHL in power play goals in 1953-54 (20), 1957-58 (18), 1964-65 (16)

I’ve created a simple adjusted power play goals stat. I already had one based on league power play scoring level, but that doesn’t work so well for a small league like the Original Six. This uses a baseline of the average power play goals of the #2 through #4 power play goal scorers, and sets that equal to 20 (basically 80s scoring level).

Here’s how Henry’s top 10 power play goal seasons compare to some of the prominent power play scorers drafted.

Player | Best | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | Top3 | Top5 | Top10
Phil Esposito | 36 | 29 | 28 | 28 | 24 | 23 | 21 | 20 | 19 | 16 | 93 | 120 | 228
Bobby Hull | 33 | 32 | 30 | 24 | 18 | 18 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 95 | 118 | 200
Camille Henry | 34 | 32 | 29 | 22 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 11 | 94 | 116 | 185
Mike Bossy | 29 | 32 | 19 | 25 | 17 | 20 | 6 | 16 | 18 | 8 | 79 | 105 | 183
Jean Beliveau | 28 | 25 | 24 | 22 | 20 | 20 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 16 | 77 | 98 | 193
Gordie Howe | 26 | 24 | 23 | 22 | 20 | 19 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 73 | 95 | 189
Mario Lemieux | 31 | 27 | 19 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 77 | 95 | 171
Tim Kerr | 29 | 26 | 25 | 21 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 80 | 101 | 137
Brett Hull | 27 | 24 | 21 | 21 | 17 | 17 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 73 | 93 | 172
Teemu Selanne | 28 | 28 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 74 | 92 | 163
Dave Andreychuk | 24 | 23 | 17 | 16 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 12 | 64 | 81 | 151
Joe Nieuwendyk | 25 | 21 | 18 | 16 | 16 | 13 | 12 | 12 | 10 | 10 | 64 | 81 | 143

Conclusion: Camille Henry was an awesome goal scorer on the power play.

(Now that I look at the results, this metric may be a bit friendly to Original Six guys, possibly because there were just far fewer guys in the role of power play goal scorers. Even so, Henry’s numbers were still extremely impressive.)

I knew he was going to go soon.



Re: Belfour, Barrasso: Sturm can't really think Barrasso is close to Belfour. It's more a case of seeing what he can get away with; testing the waters, so to speak. I think Barrasso was the BGA (IMO, only two others had a case), and with a Sturm pick, that's par for the course. He's trying to tell us he got an eagle, but I don't agree.

yikes, at first I thought overpass said Belfour's first season in Toronto was bad. I had a reply written up to that and then realized at the last minute he was referring to his last season in Dallas. Makes sense now. I remember at the time of the signing thinking how bad it was. I was very, very wrong.

 

[overpass]

yikes, at first I thought overpass said Belfour's first season in Toronto was bad. I had a reply written up to that and then realized at the last minute he was referring to his last season in Dallas. Makes sense now. I remember at the time of the signing thinking how bad it was. I was very, very wrong.

I thought the same thing at the time of the signing. I was also against Belfour being on the Olympic team, although as it turned out it didn't matter at all.

Belfour was very good indeed in Toronto.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Henry is the model of a 4th line 1st pp player...

 

[BraveCanadian]

Not sure if this guy is good value here. He’s the worst even strength player taken so far. But I’d like another forward who can fill the net on the power play, and this guy is the best option left.

Camille Henry, C/LW

Led the NHL in power play goals in 1953-54 (20), 1957-58 (18), 1964-65 (16)

I’ve created a simple adjusted power play goals stat. I already had one based on league power play scoring level, but that doesn’t work so well for a small league like the Original Six. This uses a baseline of the average power play goals of the #2 through #4 power play goal scorers, and sets that equal to 20 (basically 80s scoring level).

Here’s how Henry’s top 10 power play goal seasons compare to some of the prominent power play scorers drafted.

Player | Best | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | Top3 | Top5 | Top10
Phil Esposito | 36 | 29 | 28 | 28 | 24 | 23 | 21 | 20 | 19 | 16 | 93 | 145 | 244
Bobby Hull | 33 | 32 | 30 | 24 | 18 | 18 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 95 | 137 | 213
Camille Henry | 34 | 32 | 29 | 22 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 11 | 94 | 132 | 195
Mike Bossy | 32 | 29 | 25 | 20 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 16 | 8 | 6 | 86 | 125 | 191
Jean Beliveau | 28 | 25 | 24 | 22 | 20 | 20 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 16 | 77 | 118 | 209
Gordie Howe | 26 | 24 | 23 | 22 | 20 | 19 | 19 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 73 | 115 | 204
Mario Lemieux | 31 | 27 | 19 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 77 | 113 | 183
Tim Kerr | 29 | 26 | 25 | 21 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 80 | 111 | 141
Brett Hull | 27 | 24 | 21 | 21 | 17 | 17 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 14 | 73 | 110 | 187
Teemu Selanne | 28 | 28 | 18 | 18 | 17 | 15 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 13 | 74 | 109 | 176
Dave Andreychuk | 24 | 23 | 17 | 16 | 16 | 15 | 14 | 13 | 13 | 12 | 64 | 97 | 164
Joe Nieuwendyk | 25 | 21 | 18 | 16 | 16 | 13 | 12 | 12 | 10 | 10 | 64 | 97 | 153

Conclusion: Camille Henry was an awesome goal scorer on the power play.

(Now that I look at the results, this metric may be a bit friendly to Original Six guys, possibly because there were just far fewer guys in the role of power play goal scorers. Even so, Henry’s numbers were still extremely impressive.)

I'm just going to say I'm having a hard time believing that Camille Henry is a better powerplay scorer than Mike Bossy, Gordie Howe, and Mario Lemieux by sizable margin.

I mean obviously Lemieux hurts over the long haul due to injuries but even his top seasons don't stack up and that doesn't pass for me. A generational talent who is known as perhaps the best powerplay player ever gets beaten by Camille Henry?

 

[jarek]

I'm just going to say I'm having a hard time believing that Camille Henry is a better powerplay scorer than Mike Bossy, Gordie Howe, and Mario Lemieux by sizable margin.

He was, statistically. The problem is, that's all he has going for him.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He was, statistically. The problem is, that's all he has going for him.

I gotta call "statistical smoke" on that one

 

[Leafs Forever]

Henry is the model of a 4th line 1st pp player...

My thoughts exactly.

I'm just going to say I'm having a hard time believing that Camille Henry is a better powerplay scorer than Mike Bossy, Gordie Howe, and Mario Lemieux by sizable margin.

I mean obviously Lemieux hurts over the long haul due to injuries but even his top seasons don't stack up and that doesn't pass for me. A generational talent who is known as perhaps the best powerplay player ever gets beaten by Camille Henry?

Keep in mind this is goals only, for one thing.

 

[overpass]

I'm just going to say I'm having a hard time believing that Camille Henry is a better powerplay scorer than Mike Bossy, Gordie Howe, and Mario Lemieux by sizable margin.

I mean obviously Lemieux hurts over the long haul due to injuries but even his top seasons don't stack up and that doesn't pass for me. A generational talent who is known as perhaps the best powerplay player ever gets beaten by Camille Henry?

What can I say? Henry just scored power play goals.

Take 1953-54, Henry's rookie season. The power play goal scorers were:

1. Camille Henry 20
2. Maurice Richard 15
3. Gordie Howe 12
4. Ted Lindsay 11
5. Max Bentley 9
5. Bernard Geoffrion 9

That's pretty impressive stuff.

Or take 1957-58

1. Camille Henry 18
2. Dickie Moore 13
3. Bernard Geoffrion 10
4. Gordie Howe 9
5. Ed Litzenberger 8
5. Norm Ullman 8
5. Don Marshall 8

 

[BraveCanadian]

Keep in mind this is goals only, for one thing.

You know many better goalscorers than Mario Lemieux?

 

[Leafs Forever]

You know many better goalscorers than Mario Lemieux?

Not many, no. But we may have just met a powerplay goalscorer better than him. My point being, a lot of the guys you mention impacted the PP a lot more than Henry with their playmaking ability.

 

[vancityluongo]

You know many better goalscorers than Mario Lemieux?

I don't think anyone is implying that Henry will provide more than Lemieux on the powerplay or even come close to outscoring him. I think all those numbers are showing is that he is a legitimate option as a winger on a first unit PP in this thing. I have a feeling this is the one-dimensional goal scorer seventies referred to earlier.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't think anyone is implying that Henry will provide more than Lemieux on the powerplay or even come close to outscoring him. I think all those numbers are showing is that he is a legitimate option as a winger on a first unit PP in this thing. I have a feeling this is the one-dimensional goal scorer seventies referred to earlier.

Thats great and I can accept that. But the numbers don't add up to me.

What can I say? Henry just scored power play goals.

Take 1953-54, Henry's rookie season. The power play goal scorers were:

1. Camille Henry 20
2. Maurice Richard 15

That's pretty impressive stuff.

Or take 1957-58

1. Camille Henry 18
2. Dickie Moore 13

Ok maybe I'm out to lunch here but..

Lemieux's best PP season (95-96)
1. Lemieux 31 (in 70gp)
2. Tkachuk/Kariya 20

1953-54 scoring level 4.80
1957-58 scoring level 5.60
1995-96 scoring level 6.29

Lemieux's best PP season = 23.7 in 1953 scoring level
Lemieux's best PP season = 27.6 in 1957 scoring level

Assuming he played the same 70 games. Henry did miss 4 games in 53 but it doesn't matter cause Lemieux would still beat him.

So how does Henry come out on top even in single best season?

Is there another season where he was even more impressive on the PP?

 

[nik jr]

At first I was like, "What??"

I might have seen a few clips in the NHL series "Stanley Cup Film" - I have a large archive of shows transferred from my PVR so I'll take a look. I don't think I'll get much out of it though.

i think i remember you talking about him, probably in one of the chat room threads. stanley cup film sounds familiar.

 

[overpass]

Thats great and I can accept that. But the numbers don't add up to me.



Ok maybe I'm out to lunch here but..

Lemieux's best PP season (95-96)
1. Lemieux 31 (in 70gp)
2. Tkachuk/Kariya 20

1953-54 scoring level 4.80
1957-58 scoring level 5.60
1995-96 scoring level 6.29

Lemieux's best PP season = 23.7 in 1953 scoring level
Lemieux's best PP season = 27.6 in 1957 scoring level

Assuming he played the 70 games. Henry did miss 4 games in 53 but it doesn't matter cause Lemieux would still beat him.

So how does Henry come out on top even in single best season?

Is there another season where he was even more impressive on the PP?

Another factor is that Lemieux's team had 420 power play opportunities in 1995-96.

The actual numbers of power play opportunities weren't tracked in the 50s. But judging by the number of power play goals scored and the number of PP opportunities when they made it an official stat in the 60s, teams got about 250 power play opportunities a season in the 50s.

The average team scored 41 PPG in 1953-54, and 74 PPG in 1995-96.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Another factor is that Lemieux's team had 420 power play opportunities in 1995-96.

The actual numbers of power play opportunities weren't tracked in the 50s. But judging by the number of power play goals scored and the number of PP opportunities when they made it an official stat in the 60s, teams got about 250 power play opportunities a season in the 50s.

That's a very good point, I didn't think of that right off with my quick and dirty look at it..

So what number of opportunities did you choose to apply to the players in your list? 420? (Lemieux staying at 31)

EDIT - Oh I just re-read now you used 2-4 competitors.. hmm.. that introduces the competition as another variable comparing them over time. For example in 88-89 Lemieux has one of Kerr's prime PP seasons to compete with, while fighting off his own linemate and a freak player season with Gretzky on the PP. I dunno what I think about this.. sleep sounds better.

 

[overpass]

That's a very good point, I didn't think of that right off with my quick and dirty look at it..

So what number of opportunities did you choose to apply to the players in your list? 420? (Lemieux staying at 31)

I actually didn't use league or team opportunities. I adjusted based on the power play goals (PPG) scored by the second through fourth highest power play goals of the season.

I've posted the top scorers for the 1953-54 season. Richard, Howe, and Lindsay were the 2-4 scorers and averaged (15+12+11)/3=12.67 goals. Henry's 20 PPG adjust to 32 adjusted PPG. (20/12.67*20=32)

In Mario's 1995-96 season, Tkachuk, Kariya, and Jagr all scored 20 PPG, tying for 2nd place. Since 20 PPG is the baseline I am adjusting to, no adjustment is required. (31/20*20=31)

Hope that makes it a little clearer. It's a simple adjustment, there's no significant difference between 32 and 31 adjusted power play goals.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I actually didn't use league or team opportunities. I adjusted based on the power play goals (PPG) scored by the second through fourth highest power play goals of the season.

I've posted the top scorers for the 1953-54 season. Richard, Howe, and Lindsay were the 2-4 scorers and averaged (15+12+11)/3=12.67 goals. Henry's 20 PPG adjust to 32 adjusted PPG. (20/12.67*20=32)

In Mario's 1995-96 season, Tkachuk, Kariya, and Jagr all scored 20 PPG, tying for 2nd place. Since 20 PPG is the baseline I am adjusting to, no adjustment is required. (31/20*20=31)

Hope that makes it a little clearer. It's a simple adjustment, there's no significant difference between 32 and 31 adjusted power play goals.

Yeah sorry I'm tired but I did re-read your post.. I understand what you did better now I'm just not sure it makes more sense than adjusting by average opportunities and average scoring.. obviously comparing across time any method is going to have problems.. it just stuck out to me with Mario behind Henry.

Anywho.. I'm outta here.

 

[seventieslord]

What can I say? Henry just scored power play goals.

Take 1953-54, Henry's rookie season. The power play goal scorers were:

1. Camille Henry 20
2. Maurice Richard 15
3. Gordie Howe 12
4. Ted Lindsay 11
5. Max Bentley 9
5. Bernard Geoffrion 9

That's pretty impressive stuff.

Or take 1957-58

1. Camille Henry 18
2. Dickie Moore 13
3. Bernard Geoffrion 10
4. Gordie Howe 9
5. Ed Litzenberger 8
5. Norm Ullman 8
5. Don Marshall 8

wow, those are actually some pretty sick margins of victory.

I don't think anyone is implying that Henry will provide more than Lemieux on the powerplay or even come close to outscoring him. I think all those numbers are showing is that he is a legitimate option as a winger on a first unit PP in this thing. I have a feeling this is the one-dimensional goal scorer seventies referred to earlier.

As in, a one-dimensional winger who scored higher than Adams in my research? Nope, Henry ain't him. He was a good (PP) goal scorer, but his point production overall (which is what I was looking at) wasn't so hot. It was among the best, but below this other guy. (who will probably not even be taken for a while)

it just stuck out to me with Mario behind Henry.

Keep in mind that this is just one way to look at it, and overpass' method is a rather elementary one and not meant for advanced analysis. It does indicate pretty clearly that Henry is one of the very best of all-time at what he did.

Of course, it could mean he was a better PP goal scorer than Lemieux, and if he was, it shouldn't be that hard to take. I mean, it's not like Lemieux is THE very best at EVERYTHING, right?

 

[markrander87]

What can I say? Henry just scored power play goals.

Take 1953-54, Henry's rookie season. The power play goal scorers were:

1. Camille Henry 20
2. Maurice Richard 15
3. Gordie Howe 12
4. Ted Lindsay 11
5. Max Bentley 9
5. Bernard Geoffrion 9
That's pretty impressive stuff.

Or take 1957-58

1. Camille Henry 18
2. Dickie Moore 13
3. Bernard Geoffrion 10
4. Gordie Howe 9
5. Ed Litzenberger 8
5. Norm Ullman 8
5. Don Marshall 8

Do you have a link for the rest of Geoffrion and Litzenbergers career PP Goals? Thanks

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Completed Brian Sutter Bio: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31421862&postcount=107

How many guys will you find that play a very physical two-way game, can score, fight, lead with the best of them, were 3x top 15 in Hart voting and 5x Top 6 in All Star voting at their position? Guy could do it all.

 

[overpass]

Do you have a link for the rest of Geoffrion and Litzenbergers career PP Goals? Thanks

Here's a spreadsheet that has the unofficial numbers compiled from the Hockey Summary Project.

From 1952-53 on, Geoffrion scored 114 of 374 goals on the power play. And he was mostly playing the point, so that's pretty impressive.

Litzenberger scored 29 of 178 goals on the power play. I think Litzenberger also played the point, at least at times. At the time it was common to use star forwards on the point.

 

[EagleBelfour]

The Eagle was probably no better than the 4th best performer on that Dallas Cup winner after Modano (who should have won the Conn Smythe), Nieuwendyk and Hatcher.

Call me bias, well there's nothing I can much do in that case, but I fondly remember watching every playoff Dallas game that year, and I thought Ed Belfour was the MVP. He was absolutely incredible during those playoffs. Also, he had some incredible playoff games in Dallas and Toronto. Still remember that 3OT against Philadelphia. Toronto lost, but main was Belfour stopping everything thrown at him. I think Belfour was more than a mere 'good' playoff performer, but I understand the 'great' and 'excellent' label goes to the Roy's, Hasek's etc ...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Call me bias, well there's nothing I can much do in that case, but I fondly remember watching every playoff Dallas game that year, and I thought Ed Belfour was the MVP. He was absolutely incredible during those playoffs. Also, he had some incredible playoff games in Dallas and Toronto. Still remember that 3OT against Philadelphia. Toronto lost, but main was Belfour stopping everything thrown at him. I think Belfour was more than a mere 'good' playoff performer, but I understand the 'great' and 'excellent' label goes to the Roy's, Hasek's etc ...

I remember watching every game as well, and I don't know who I would choose between Belfour and Modano, but I remember those two being the two best players. Nieuwendyk was great, but not better than those two, and certainly not more valuable. I always felt he won the Smythe because of the GWG stat.

 

[jarek]

raleh has until 2:57 AM EST, and I have modo's list.