ATD 2011 Draft Thread V

[seventieslord]

Who cares about the numbers when you have witnessed them , you should both be old enough to have seen them play , it's pretty clear Tkachuk was the best player but almost impossible to win with while Tocchet was a better team player and probably more useful if you want to win.Tkachuk dominated the ice more than Tocchet I thought it was pretty clear at the time.

I can accept Tocchet was a better team player. More useful? Let's get serious here. Put Tkachuk in Tocchet's place. Are his teams worse? of course not. I bet they are even more dominant. Put Tocchet in Tkachuk's place. Does St. Louis go anywhere? No. In fact they are probably even more disappointing.

I'm not saying Walker is a zero offensively.. but to call him a two-way player is incredibly misleading. A two-way player, to me, is capable of playing solid defense while also contributing offense on a regular basis. Sure, Walker can chip in here and there, but I don't see him hitting 50-60 points over the course of a simulated ATD season like I'd expect an actual two-way player to.

BM67 is the master of the "vs. #2" system so he should post some numbers to demonstrate Walker's offensive potential.

Although I am a believer that, if this is to be apples-to-apples, vs #1 should be the metric for Walker's pre-merger seasons.

After that is done, we can compare to guys like Gainey, Ramsay, Metz, Provost, etc, and get an idea of where he falls in the pecking order among the best 3rd line defensive wingers offensively.

Of course, the above 4 didn't spend their primes playing with Frank Foyston and Bernie Morris, and Walker did. (Provost was with Henri for a while though). And, whatever benefit the PP provided in the PCHA, Walker won't be the beneficiary of it, as he won't be getting PP time. Gainey, Ramsay, and Provost scored from 6-12% of their career points on the PP so I don't think this factor affects them much, but Walker was on the first (only) line so this would affect him.

 

[seventieslord]

lol, you know I'm gonna make a biogtaphy on him. Let me finish and afterwards you could comment!

Yeah, but your bio is going to say:

Top-10 scoring among defensemen (3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th)

Which makes him out to be a bill Quackenbush-caliber offensive defenseman. This was pre-merger, and in four of those seasons, a guy 1-3 spots ahead had over 50% more than him.

But OK, I'll stop commenting for now.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Yeah, but your bio is going to say:

Top-10 scoring among defensemen (3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th)

Which makes him out to be a bill Quackenbush-caliber offensive defenseman. This was pre-merger, and in four of those seasons, a guy 1-3 spots ahead had over 50% more than him.

But OK, I'll stop commenting for now.

You had to put your grain of salt before stopping heh? That's not very moderator like 70's!

Also, your numbers are off. His competition was very impressive too. And I'm only looking to paint a realistic picture of Corbeau. I picked him, so at this point I don't mind if he was a steal or a reach.

But OK, I'll stop commenting for now.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I can accept Tocchet was a better team player. More useful? Let's get serious here. Put Tkachuk in Tocchet's place. Are his teams worse? of course not. I bet they are even more dominant. Put Tocchet in Tkachuk's place. Does St. Louis go anywhere? No. In fact they are probably even more disappointing.
.

You're probably right.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

If Cognition's clock runs out on this pick does he get a whole new clock for the one after?

 

[Dreakmur]

If Cognition's clock runs out on this pick does he get a whole new clock for the one after?

No.

If you have an outstanding pick, any futher picks that come up are auto-skipped.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think it happened with Nighthawks but don't remember exactly how they handled it

I know Cognition was waiting last night so maybe he's still sleeping , he certainly knows it's his turn soon.

To be honest I'm not even sure myself who I want to pick and I'm next.

I'm researching a bit and I have team philosophy choices to make.

 

[Dreakmur]

I think it happened with Nighthawks but don't remember exactly how they handled it

He technically does get to clocks, but, as I said above, once his first clock expires, his second clock is auto skipped becuse that first one is still outstanding.

 

[seventieslord]

You had to put your grain of salt before stopping heh? That's not very moderator like 70's!

Also, your numbers are off. His competition was very impressive too. And I'm only looking to paint a realistic picture of Corbeau. I picked him, so at this point I don't mind if he was a steal or a reach.

But OK, I'll stop commenting for now.

I bet your numbers are the ones that are off. I'm well aware of who played defense in which seasons back then. Using hockey-reference.com will steer you wrong.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I bet your numbers are the ones that are off. I'm well aware of who played defense in which seasons back then. Using hockey-reference.com will steer you wrong.

isnt hockey referance the best statistical site?

better than hockeydb at the very least

 

[EagleBelfour]

I bet your numbers are the ones that are off. I'm well aware of who played defense in which seasons back then. Using hockey-reference.com will steer you wrong.

You're underestimating me if you really think I used hockey reference as a guide. Perhaps you're counting players who alternate between defence and forward during a single season.

 

[Dreakmur]

isnt hockey referance the best statistical site?

better than hockeydb at the very least

It has issues with guys who played both forward and defense. When you're looking for scoring leaders among defensemen, they sometimes include guys who played forward during the season(s0, and sometimes miss guys who played defense.

 

[BenchBrawl]

still a good tool to have around , without these sites it would be ap ain in the ass to do a quick check-up on someone

 

[seventieslord]

You're underestimating me if you really think I used hockey reference as a guide. Perhaps you're counting players who alternate between defence and forward during a single season.

I look forward to comparing, then.

still a good tool to have around , without these sites it would be ap ain in the ass to do a quick check-up on someone

yes, hr is definitely the best site. But what Dreakmur said is accurate. Be careful trying to determine the offensive worth of any pre-1960 defenseman using that site.

 

[EagleBelfour]

yes, hr is definitely the best site. But what Dreakmur said is accurate. Be careful trying to determine the offensive worth of any pre-1960 defenseman using that site.

The famous 'UNDRAFTED PLAYER' case!
----

Him in the top-1000 players ... really???

 

[Stoneberg]

I can take lists, I'll be around for most of the time between now and 2 or 3am.

 

[Sturminator]

I also read one source that called him a bodychecker. The problem is that I found 7 or 8 sources that said otherwise. I think he's a guy who can handle power forwards - because he strong and mobile - but he's not a physical presence. I may be wrong, however, and I look forward to seeing what you can dig up.

This one is easy. Neilson suffered a serious knee injury sometime in the early 70's (I don't remember the precise year), sadly cutting short his peak (he was one of the best defensemen for a few seasons before that) and was not the same player afterwards. He could still skate pretty well in a straight line, but his turning ability was seriously impaired, and you really can't throw hip checks if you can't turn well. He also lost the ability to really drive with his legs, and started having more trouble clearing the crease. I am 100% certain that the articles you found on Neilson's physical problems are from after the injury. He was a powerful hitter at his peak.

 

[seventieslord]

This one is easy. Neilson suffered a serious knee injury sometime in the early 70's (I don't remember the precise year), sadly cutting short his peak (he was one of the best defensemen for a few seasons before that) and was not the same player afterwards. He could still skate pretty well in a straight line, but his turning ability was seriously impaired, and you really can't throw hip checks if you can't turn well. He also lost the ability to really drive with his legs, and started having more trouble clearing the crease. I am 100% certain that the articles you found on Neilson's physical problems are from after the injury. He was a powerful hitter at his peak.

I only have read up on him briefly so far, but the timing of the reports I've read corroborates what you said perfectly.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Who cares about the numbers when you have witnessed them , you should both be old enough to have seen them play , it's pretty clear Tkachuk was the best player but almost impossible to win with while Tocchet was a better team player and probably more useful if you want to win.Tkachuk dominated the ice more than Tocchet I thought it was pretty clear at the time.

That's ridiculous. Tkachuk was never a problem in the locker room. He wore an A or a C every where he went, and nobody ever complained about his leadership or lack of drive on the ice. (Yes, I realize he showed up fat for camp once. So did Grant Fuhr).

The problem with Tkachuk is that he was counted on to lead his team's offense and failed in the playoffs. He's one of a long line of power forwards who got too caught up in the physical game to take care of what was most important. So don't put him in that role here. Let him take on a secondary role - I think someone with his talent would excel if used as a physical presence to help a more talented player, who can take the attention and scoring pressure off of Keith.

So yes, it is impossible to win with Tkachuk... as a catalyst of the offense. It's why he's a decent pick at #300, rather than #200, which is where he'd go if his playoff record wasn't so putrid.

And I realized Canadians tend to block it out, but Tkachuk WAS a key member of the 1996 World Cup team and media reports credit his one-sided beatdown of a really annoying undrafted player with giving the US the inspiration and confidence they needed to beat the highly favored Canadians. Edit: Sorry, just had to talk some 15 year old trash there. So close to being able to talk much more recent trash... stupid Crosby.

 

[Derick*]

Very sorry guys. I was planning to pick last night but I fell asleep. I will pick in a minute.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

To bring up the past argument with Vezina.

I found this quote about the Montreal Canadiens style of play:

The Wanderers played the kind of hockey that wins, while Les Canadiens did the sort of skating that brings the crowd to its feet with howls of delight.

 

[Derick*]

The San Jose Sharks select one of the best playoff scorers of all time Evgeni Malkin, C/RW

 

[Reds4Life]

Malkin is a solid pick at this point IMHO. Although he is really bad at faceoffs, and not very good defensively.

 

[Derick*]

The San Jose Sharks select two-time Selke winner Michael Peca, C

 

[BM67]

I'm not saying Walker is a zero offensively.. but to call him a two-way player is incredibly misleading. A two-way player, to me, is capable of playing solid defense while also contributing offense on a regular basis. Sure, Walker can chip in here and there, but I don't see him hitting 50-60 points over the course of a simulated ATD season like I'd expect an actual two-way player to.

Considering that scoring usually drops when talent increases, and the ATD is quite a step up from NHL talent level, I would expect that unless you have a Bobby Clarke on you 2nd line type checking line, that nobody used in a checking role will net 50-60 points.

Here is a table comparing yearly average % of the league leaders in goals, assists and points. Walker is compared to the league leader, the others are compared to the 4th place finisher.

Player|Years|Goals|Assists|Points
Walker|16|28.8%|44.6%|36.6%
Gillies|14|43.8%|38.0%|43.5%
Duff|18|47.2%|34.7%|41.1%
Gainey|16|28.4%|22.8%|26.8%
Olmstead|14|41.8%|74.0%|63.6%

Note that Walker's NHA assist lead is capped at 100% by comparing to himself, and many of his other years will suffer from his being compared to Cyclone Taylor. Also his points % will be hurt by assists being awarded at less than 1 per goal during his career. His averages are further hurt by his playing only 1 game in 2 seasons. One he jumped to another league that isn't counted, and the other he went into military service during WWI.