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ATD 2011 Draft Thread V

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BenchBrawl

BenchBrawl

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Should I also leave the player I want with my pick after Cognition's double-pick?

I should mention in case the player I want with my first pick is being picked by homenugget I DO NOT want the player in my second pick to be picked first. ( strategy thing )
 

Derick*

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He can't just leave a list in order because who he wants with his second pick depends on who is chosen in his first.

He needs to leave a list of his first and then a different sublist for every player he might pick with his first that someone can implement depending on who he gets with his first.
 
Dreakmur

Dreakmur

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ReenMachine said:
Should I also leave the player I want with my pick after Cognition's double-pick?

I should mention in case the player I want with my first pick is being picked by homenugget I DO NOT want the player in my second pick to be picked first. ( strategy thing )
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You should leave a list for each pick.
 
jarek

jarek

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OMFG.. I can't believe Westfall was stolen from me.. papershoes I am going to find you and egg your house.
 
TheDevilMadeMe

TheDevilMadeMe

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ReenMachine said:
Yet Konstantinov was 2nd in Norris voting.
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2nd - 5th in Norris voting were only separated by a few votes in 1996-97, to the point that they were basically equivalent.

Ted Green was a solid 3rd in Norris voting behind Bobby Orr and Tim Horton in his big year.

Just based on the voting records, it's quite close. And yes, I realize Norris records aren't everything.

seventieslord said:
What exactly made Bert Corbeau suddenly worthy of being picked in the 300s?

As recently as ATD8, he was a MLDer. He then went from 541 to 464 to 459, which seemed ok, but then suddenly rocketed to 317 in ATD12 by a rookie GM. When questioned on it, he didn't reply IIRC. There was no new evidence presented and he still appears very mediocre compared to his drafted contemporaries.

The mistake was repeated last draft and he was taken 298th. I guess EB completes the canonization this time around by taking him in the early 300s again.

Besides toughness, one thing he does seem to have going for him is a decent offensive resume. His percentages of the 1st-place scoring defensemen in his best seasons are: 81, 61, 61, 59, 56, 48, 48, 29. This translates into about a 55-point outlier season, and six seasons from 33-46 points in a modern context. Which is much, much more significant than the last early defenseman EB's bio painted as passable offensively.

Still, to go this early he had better be damn good defensively, and not just tough.

Finally he belongs to a GM willing to do some work to sell him. I look forward to seeing what EB finds on him. He appears to be about the 12th-best defenseman of a generation; other stronger generations barely have that many selected already.

One thing is for sure - the statistical noise in this bio is going to drive me batsh!t crazy, particularly in the playoffs!
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Yeah, my eyebrows definitely raised when I saw him go this early. Looking forwards to seeing what EB can dig up on him.
 
TheDevilMadeMe

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HomeNugget said:
The Detroit Riots select defenseman Randy Carlyle.
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Solid pick. A bit of a one-season wonder, but he'll make a fine 2nd pairing puck mover who is responsible in his own zone.

Boy Wonder said:
Reen picks C/LW, Elias, Patrik.
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Elias is barely a center. He should probably just be listed at LW. Or at least LW/C. And he's a great LW at this point. I wanted him to set up Starshinov from the wing. :(

Riddle me this: Why is Brian Propp always picked so far ahead of Elias... or ahead at all? I never saw propp play - was he elite defensively and in the corners or just very good for a scoring line guy (like Elias). Because Elias is the better regular season point producer, and while they both put up tons of points in the playoffs, Elias actually won the whole thing twice (so bonus points to him).
 
BraveCanadian

BraveCanadian

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Riddle me this: Why is Brian Propp always picked so far ahead of Elias... or ahead at all? I never saw propp play - was he elite defensively and in the corners or just very good for a scoring line guy (like Elias). Because Elias is the better regular season point producer, and while they both put up tons of points in the playoffs, Elias actually won the whole thing twice (so bonus points to him).
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Propp is pretty underrated in general.

He was a very complete player in his prime for sure. I'm not sure if I would call him elite defensively.. it was probably more like very good instead of elite.. he penalty killed a lot, for example

Guy was also money in the playoffs but kept running up against big time teams.

And I still want to smack Chelios for the blatant elbow he nailed Propp with. :)
 
TheDevilMadeMe

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BraveCanadian said:
Propp is pretty underrated in general.

He was a very complete player in his prime for sure. I'm not sure if I would call him elite defensively.. it was probably more like very good instead of elite.. he penalty killed a lot, for example

Guy was also money in the playoffs but kept running up against big time teams.

And I still want to smack Chelios for the blatant elbow he nailed Propp with. :)
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Elias is "very good" defensively too and killed quite a few penalties himself, as well as being money in the playoffs. That's why I like the Elias/Propp comparison.

The biggest difference I see is that Elias had significantly more offensive upside, at least in the regular season, without giving away anything in the playoffs. Again, I could be underrating Propp's board work and defense, though.
 
TheDevilMadeMe

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Re: Bobrov, here's an interesting thread about the level of Soviet Hockey before the Summit Series:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=689597

Summary: Before 1962-63, the best team the Soviet Union could put together lost to Canadian amateurs more often than not.

After 1963 (basically, the beginning of the Firsov/Ragulin/Starshinov generation), the Soviets dominated the Canadian amateurs who played on the national team, right through the end of the 1960s. Then the nations didn't play each other in the 1970s until the 1972 Summit Series, when Canada sent NHL talent for the first time.

The early 60s makes sense as a turning point, as the Firsov/Ragulin/Starshinov generation was the first generation of Soviets to grow up playing organized hockey. If I recall correctly, Bobrov was a great all-round athlete who didn't pick up a hockey stick until he was 24 years old.
 
Sturminator

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Edit: In the ATD, where Keith is a complimentary player and defenses can't focus on him? I'd definitely take him over the other two, especially Tocchet (at least Stevens was a very good scorer when he played with Mario).
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Although I question the wisdom of putting him on a line with Dale Hawerchuk (speaking of players who always seem to be drafted long before their peers), who wasn't exactly a postseason world-beater, himself. Tkachuk also can't hide as much in a 40 team ATD where he will have to carry more of the load than he did for your team.
 
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BraveCanadian

BraveCanadian

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Elias is "very good" defensively too and killed quite a few penalties himself, as well as being money in the playoffs. That's why I like the Elias/Propp comparison.

The biggest difference I see is that Elias had significantly more offensive upside, at least in the regular season, without giving away anything in the playoffs. Again, I could be underrating Propp's board work and defense, though.
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I'd put forward that Elias is pretty underrated himself.

As far as board work goes, Propp was one of those guys that didn't shy away from contact and would initiate when it was important.. but Eric Lindros he was not.

Propp also had more offensive upside than he ever showed. Being responsible two-ways will do that to ya.

I think you're right that Elias and Propp are comparable players. I think Propp was somewhat more consistent though.
 
BraveCanadian

BraveCanadian

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Of course you would take Tkachuk over them. All you can remember is Tkachuk being expected to lead his team in the playoffs and failing miserable.

What doesn't stand out in memory is that neither Kevin Stevens nor Rick Tocchet had a chance to fail, because neither one was expected to lead his team anywhere, because neither was good enough to be the key player on his team, like Keith was.

Edit: In the ATD, where Keith is a complimentary player and defenses can't focus on him? I'd definitely take him over the other two, especially Tocchet (at least Stevens was a very good scorer when he played with Mario).
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I'm usually the first guy to defend the Dionne type players who were individually very good but had little to no team success because their teams weren't good enough.

In Tkachuk's case though, I think we can see from his ranking that I am not alone in thinking he was part of the problem.
 
TheDevilMadeMe

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BraveCanadian said:
I'm usually the first guy to defend the Dionne type players who were individually very good but had little to no team success because their teams weren't good enough.

In Tkachuk's case though, I think we can see from his ranking that I am not alone in thinking he was part of the problem.
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Tkachuk was definitely part of the problem. In fact, he was probably the #1 choker on those choking St. Louis teams of the late 90s (Pronger was pretty bad too though).

Keith wasn't always bad in the playoffs though - he was actually considered a big game player early in his career (believe it or not). I read scouting reports before the 1996 World Cup and Tkachuk had quite the reputation as a clutch scorer at that point. And then he played very well in the 1996 World Cup.

Then he got a ridiculously inflated contract with St. Louis and sucked in the playoffs for the final 2/3 of his career. We're talking historically bad levels of suckage. I don't know how much of it was complacency with the big bucks, or if it was just because teams knew how to play against him (Adam Foote in particular would physically engage Keith, who would then get so caught up in shoving matches, he forgot what it took to score goals).

On the other hand, Tkachuk was good enough to get the special attention from guys like Adam Foote. He was viewed as St. Louis's biggest threat and other teams (successfully) gameplanned to stop him. Kevin Stevens, Rick Tocchet, or Gary Roberts? I don't think they were ever good enough for teams to gameplan against.

Edit: I guess Roberts was for a season or two in Calgary.
 
BenchBrawl

BenchBrawl

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PATRIK ELIAS

patrik-elias.jpg


all star team: 1st
top 10 goals: 4 , 10
top 10 assist: 9
top 10 points: 3 , 6

6-1 200lbs
 
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