At their peaks: Jagr/Forsberg/Lindros v Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin

[Gurglesons]

Is there any evidence to support this claim? Or am I missing something?

Malkin at his peak in the playoffs was on a level that only Sakic and Lemieux have been since the mid 90s?

 

[Regal]

Okay.

NHL.com Stats

Who is in the top ten twice since Forsberg entered the league and who isn't?

NHL.com Stats

PPG. Malkin has the better season too.

The league average GPG in the '09 playoffs was 2.74. In '02 it was 2.35. Adjusted for Forsberg's 27 in 20 is 31.5 or a 1.57 PPG, which is better than Malkin's 1.5. The Avs also faced the 6th, 9th and 3rd best defensive teams that year, while Malkin faced the 16th, 20th, 8th and 19th best defensive teams that season.

Finishing in the top 10 was clearly due to Forsberg's two times leading the playoffs in scoring coming in low scoring playoff seasons and in only 3 rounds. Still, he was 1 point away from the top 10 in '02.

Their overall playoff stats are very similar. To siggest Malkin was much better just isn't true.

 

[Gurglesons]

The league average GPG in the '09 playoffs was 2.74. In '02 it was 2.35. Adjusted for Forsberg's 27 in 20 is 31.5 or a 1.57 PPG, which is better than Malkin's 1.5. The Avs also faced the 6th, 9th and 3rd best defensive teams that year, while Malkin faced the 16th, 20th, 8th and 19th best defensive teams that season.

Finishing in the top 10 was clearly due to Forsberg's two times leading the playoffs in scoring coming in low scoring playoff seasons and in only 3 rounds. Still, he was 1 point away from the top 10 in '02.

Their overall playoff stats are very similar. To siggest Malkin was much better just isn't true.

Sounds like a silly technique to use in the playoffs.

 

[Regal]

Sounds like a silly technique to use in the playoffs.

Seems more like silly deflecting of something you can't refute. The league average GPG was consistently much lower in the DPE. While playing only against specific teams makes it difficult to compare, it's obvious that Forsberg was at a disadvantage there, especially when you consider how the teams they were facing fared defensively in the regular season.

 

[Gurglesons]

Seems more like silly deflecting of something you can't refute. The league average GPG was consistently much lower in the DPE. While playing only against specific teams makes it difficult to compare, it's obvious that Forsberg was at a disadvantage there, especially when you consider how the teams they were facing fared defensively in the regular season.

I think nearly everyone in the world would take Malkin in 09 over Forsberg who couldn't even win a cup despite his heroics in 02.

But you do you with "adjusted stats".

 

[K Fleur]

Subtract Jagr and add in Fedorov to activate HF’s holy trinity of overrated players.

 

[Thenameless]

Subtract Jagr and add in Fedorov to activate HF’s holy trinity of overrated players.

I hear what you're saying, but that one peak Fedorov year is not out of place in this discussion. The problem is, it becomes difficult to distinguish between peak and prime, and the latter is where the modern group pulls away handily.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby and Malkin both scored 100+ in the reg season then 30+ in the playoffs same season. Throw in ovechkin and it’s an easy win, plus Crosby is easily the best player here.

 

[bobholly39]

Malkin at his peak in the playoffs was on a level that only Sakic and Lemieux have been since the mid 90s?

Lemieux was much better than both, so no need to equate Sakic to him.

I'd agree that Malkin 09 ~ Sakic in 1996.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Forsberg though. Best playoff run between the 2? Malkin, obviously. But Forsberg's level of play in the playoffs was generally great. He was arguably even more consistent throughout than Malkin has been outside of his best 2 runs. But at his best - in playoffs or season - Forsberg is very comparable to others in this list. Even if you say Malkin #1 for playoff peak - Forsberg at worst is #2 or 3.

Forsberg's major problem is prime, not peak. He didn't do it often enough.

 

[Albatros]

I've never seen a player better than Forsberg at his best. Unfortunately it's only logical that it could not last.

 

[bobholly39]

Forsberg and Lindros were injured a lot, but I don't see how you call them inconsistent in their primes. They have shorter primes then the others, but not inconsistent ones. They're not Crosby, but they were more consistent than Malkin and played closer to their peaks for longer than Ovechkin. From 93-94 to 99-00, Lindros finished 3rd, 1st, 3rd (to Lemieux and Jagr), 2nd (to Lemieux), 6th, 4th and 9th in points per game, missed a season and came back and finished 9th again. Forsberg from 95-96 to 03-04 finished 6th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, T-12th, 4th, missed a season, 1st, and 1st. And even after the lockout finished 9th.

Well - they are being compared to Crosby in this thread, so yeah for consistency of prime in relation to Crosby, nowhere close. Not close to Ovi/Jagr either.
Two - I said "they didn't do it often enough" before I brought up consistency, which is my bigger issue.

Lindros? He did win a hart in the lockout season, 46 games. Only once finished higher than 6th after that. Never finished top 5 in scoring outside of lockout year. Could he have? Sure, probably, but he didn't do it often enough. And too many people around here like to make ridiculously grandiose claims "top 5 player ever if healthy". No - maybe if he had had a few full seasons where he actually won awards, it'd be a bit more convincing. He simply didn't do it often enough.

Forsberg? Same concept. He won the Ross and Hart in 2003 - but never outside of that did he make top 5 in hart. He does have 3 other top 5 scoring finishes, but that's it.

Look at Crosby's top 5 scoring finishes, or hart finishes in comparison. Or look at Ovechkin's. Jagr too.

Malkin suffers a bit from the same issues as Lindros/Forsberg - but where he does a lot better is that he has 3 super high quality full seasons where he was top 2 in ross/hart (2 ross, 1 hart). And while Lindros's hart was nothing special (lockout year), and Forsberg's was good but doesn't really stand out - Malkin's in 2012 is seen as probably a top 2 season post lockout, so it's a really good one.

Forsberg/Lindros - fantastic talents. At their best? Sure - level of play, they belong in this group of 6 players, they were very good. But they didn't do it often enough - not by a long shot - nor did they do it consistently enough. So when you start talking prime - and even moreso career - they are far behind the others.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Forsberg and Lindros were injured a lot, but I don't see how you call them inconsistent in their primes. They have shorter primes then the others, but not inconsistent ones. They're not Crosby, but they were more consistent than Malkin and played closer to their peaks for longer than Ovechkin. From 93-94 to 99-00, Lindros finished 3rd, 1st, 3rd (to Lemieux and Jagr), 2nd (to Lemieux), 6th, 4th and 9th in points per game, missed a season and came back and finished 9th again. Forsberg from 95-96 to 03-04 finished 6th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, T-12th, 4th, missed a season, 1st, and 1st. And even after the lockout finished 9th.

It's easier to play "closer to their peak" when their peak is clearly inferior. Nothing Forsberg or Lindros ever did comes close to sniffing OV's 08-10. And speaking of PPG, OV has more PPG wins than Forsberg and Lindros. Also, OV played 70+ GP in all 8 of his top 10 PPG seasons (48/48 in 12/13). Lindros only 3/8, Forsberg only 5/8. So OV destroys them for peak but also prime (before even getting into goal, pt and hart finishes).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Okay.

NHL.com Stats

Who is in the top ten twice since Forsberg entered the league and who isn't?

NHL.com Stats

PPG. Malkin has the better season too.

This thread is about peaks is it not? Malkin's peak was Mario Lemieux / Joe Sakic level in 96 in 2009 with Maxime Talbot and Ruslan Fedotenko as his wingers.

I don't think the point of the thread is to add up everyone's point totals in their best seasons and come up with the winner.

Forsberg is the best defensive player (and skater) of the lot.

Jagr is the best offensive player.

Lindros was simply a monster. A physical force of nature.

To me its a very good comparison, very close. Both lines have two centers, so Lindros and Malkin would have to play out of position. With his physical game, Lindros would seem to be a better fit. Both lines would be impossible to stop, but head to head Forsberg's defensive ability would give his line a slight edge.

 

[Voight]

Crosby > Jagr
Malkin > Forsberg
Ovechkin > Lindros

Crosby versus prime Jagr is a hard one, because Prime Jags is insulated with Lemieux and Francis. I'll take Crosby simply based on his overall game and the fact his peak offensively is pretty comparable to Jags.

Malkin versus prime Forsberg is probably the easiest here. The legend of Forsberg is basically the legend of Malkin only Malkin's 2012 or 2009 post season run are just ridiculous compared to anything Forsberg did.

Ovechkin and Lindros in their prime (Ovie's first three years and Lindros during the lockout and the two surrounding years) are close, but Ovechkin's prime simply takes the cake for me given he had the same type of physical game (minus the fighting part) and was putting up similar numbers and was a better goal scorer.

Prime Jagr won 4 scoring titles in a row without Lemieux and with Francis around for only one of those. He was an absolute beast despite playing with average players and having to carry his team year after year.

Forsbergs 2002 playoff run is comparable and arguably better (see @Regal 's post above) to Malkins 2009 IMO. Overall tho, I think Foppa's the better player.

 

[Voight]

I guess Justin Williams is a better player than Phil Esposito & Bobby Clarke.

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess Justin Williams is a better player than Phil Esposito & Bobby Clarke.

No. Because we are talking prime playoff performance.

 

[EXTRAS]

Ok, those numbers aren't correct then. They are possibly including shootout goals in 2009. Goals per game (both teams) was 5.70 in 2009.

I dunno. I got it from hockey reference . Com
Even if it's 5.7, that's still significantly higher than 2002.

 

[Gurglesons]

Prime Jagr won 4 scoring titles in a row without Lemieux and with Francis around for only one of those. He was an absolute beast despite playing with average players and having to carry his team year after year.

Forsbergs 2002 playoff run is comparable and arguably better (see @Regal 's post above) to Malkins 2009 IMO. Overall tho, I think Foppa's the better player.

Jagr won 4 scoring titles in a row without Lemieux and Francis despite Lemieux and Francis being on the team for two of those.

K.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think the point of the thread is to add up everyone's point totals in their best seasons and come up with the winner.

Forsberg is the best defensive player (and skater) of the lot.

Jagr is the best offensive player.

Lindros was simply a monster. A physical force of nature.

To me its a very good comparison, very close. Both lines have two centers, so Lindros and Malkin would have to play out of position. With his physical game, Lindros would seem to be a better fit. Both lines would be impossible to stop, but head to head Forsberg's defensive ability would give his line a slight edge.

‘90s revisionist history.

Jagr was my favorite player growing up. My dad was a die hard Flyers fan, and I loved Roy so I watched all of the Avs championships.

None of those players peak wise compare to Crosby or Ovechkin. And if we are going by peak, Malkin is right there with Jagr who never dominated the playoffs as one of THE GUYS like Malkin.

 

[Merrrlin]

Crosby > Jagr
Malkin > Forsberg
Ovechkin > Lindros

Crosby versus prime Jagr is a hard one, because Prime Jags is insulated with Lemieux and Francis. I'll take Crosby simply based on his overall game and the fact his peak offensively is pretty comparable to Jags.

Malkin versus prime Forsberg is probably the easiest here. The legend of Forsberg is basically the legend of Malkin only Malkin's 2012 or 2009 post season run are just ridiculous compared to anything Forsberg did.

Ovechkin and Lindros in their prime (Ovie's first three years and Lindros during the lockout and the two surrounding years) are close, but Ovechkin's prime simply takes the cake for me given he had the same type of physical game (minus the fighting part) and was putting up similar numbers and was a better goal scorer.

Damn, you nailed it. 100% agree. Crosby/Jagr is tough but the other two felt pretty clear cut.

 

[Merrrlin]

Subtract Jagr and add in Fedorov to activate HF’s holy trinity of overrated players.

I hear what you're saying, but that one peak Fedorov year is not out of place in this discussion. The problem is, it becomes difficult to distinguish between peak and prime, and the latter is where the modern group pulls away handily.

Agreed. If we were just talking about peak (ie best season, or maybe best 2 consecutive seasons) it's a bit more interesting, as Federov was incredible for a couple years. However, it feels more like this is a "prime" discussion, in which case the younger guys bounce way ahead.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Prime Lindros is extremely under rated on this forum.

Lindros/Forsberg would make those three cry and if Lindros dropped the gloves with any three of them who is gonna stop him?

Sorry, I'm taking team Lindros. A linrdos/ Jagr line would be unfair

 

[Voight]

Jagr won 4 scoring titles in a row without Lemieux and Francis despite Lemieux and Francis being on the team for two of those.

K.

Clearly you didn't read my post. Lemeiux retired in 1997 after winning his 6th scoring title, Jagr proceeded to win 4 in a row. Francis stuck around for the first one (1998) but then departed for Carolina.

Jagr won these playing with Martin Strata and Robert Lang. Some crazy talent right there!

So no, he was not "insulated" by them.

 

[Nocashstyle]

I honestly can't decide. My first instinct is that that Jagr's absolute peak was the best, but all of these guys had incredibly dominant peaks. I do think Malkin at his absolute best peaks slightly higher than Crosby at his.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Agreed. If we were just talking about peak (ie best season, or maybe best 2 consecutive seasons) it's a bit more interesting, as Federov was incredible for a couple years. However, it feels more like this is a "prime" discussion, in which case the younger guys bounce way ahead.

The title of the thread is "At Their Peak"