Askarov

[The Zermanator]

Every single shot against.

I'd argue the real value comes in the playoffs, when the scoring tightens up and what separates the teams isn't as pronounced. So no, teams don't need elite goaltending to steamroll the Red Wings. Kind of low value there. But that's going to pay off more when it comes to facing the Lightning's attack.

Like last season, when Tampa got swept out of the first round by Columbus? And Vasilevski had an 0.856 save percentage and a 3.82 GAA?

When a skater pans out, you know what you're getting. Even when a goaltender pans out, they can have stretches that are downright brutal.

Not all shots against are created equal though. It's much easier being prime Brodeur playing behind late 90s-early 00s New Jersey than Hasek playing behind 90s Buffalo. One the one hand, the other players you have will significantly impact the variety and quality of shots you face. Tampa had a lot more problems than Vasilevskiy when they got swept, everybody sh*t the bed. On the other hand, there is something to be said for elite goalies in that they will let in fewer stinkers. Even in Howard's best years, we're all familiar with the type of goal he would regularly let in that would just make you shake your head. And like Bench mentions, when the scoring tightens in the playoffs, one goal here and there can make or break your season.

Ultimately we need elite talent at every position at this point in time. I trust Yzerman will go with who he feels has he most potential to become that player. If it's Askarov, great. I hope we get something even better than what we'd hoped Mrazek would become. If it's one of the skaters, that's fine too.

 

[Retire91]

I think a lot of people underestimate what a franchise goalie can do because we don't have first hand experience with them. Franchise goalies do one of two things they create a complete lock down when you have a competent roster like Roy going to Colorado or they put a mediocre/good team in contention like Rinne Luongo or Hasek. I would say there is arguably not a single position that has more chances to be a difference maker in a game 20-40 times a game. We are just so used to the philosophy of good enough goal tending that has a team in front that can make up for any deficiency. We are never going to have that kind of team up front again.

 

[jkutswings]

I think a lot of people underestimate what a franchise goalie can do because we don't have first hand experience with them. Franchise goalies do one of two things they create a complete lock down when you have a competent roster like Roy going to Colorado or they put a mediocre/good team in contention like Rinne Luongo or Hasek. I would say there is arguably not a single position that has more chances to be a difference maker in a game 20-40 times a game. We are just so used to the philosophy of good enough goal tending that has a team in front that can make up for any deficiency. We are never going to have that kind of team up front again.

Conversely, they still need to get a lot of things right when it comes to offense. Elite goalie or not, I have zero desire to go through 5-10 years of rebuilding and emerge as an average playoff team that has to win a bunch of 1-0 games because they don't have enough offense to do anything else.

CAN they use #4 on Askarov and still build a team balanced enough to do well? Yes. But I'd rather prioritize my best resources elsewhere.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

Sanderson/Askarov/Perfetti.
Those are the 3 I'm looking at.

barf just trade back to 10 if you want one of them

 

[newfy]

Vasilevskiy has to be on that list. And if you're going back to the likes of Barrasso, one must include first rounder Martin Brodeur.

I'm sure the Devils are happy they didn't subscribe to the no goalies in the first round rule. Imagine, they could have had... let me check my notes here...

Bryan Smolinski. Who wasn't bad or anything, but you know, Brodeur.
After that there was Ryan Hughes, who played 3 NHL names.
And then Jiří Šlégr, a depth player at best.
And so on.

Basically, you have to go 10 picks past Brodeur to get to another star player Potvin, another goalie.

Huge difference talking about taking a guy 20th overall and picking 4th with no real high end offensive talent on the team/in the system. Ask Calgary how they feel from that draft taking Trevor Kidd over someone like Keith Tkachuk or Brodeur for that matter. Kinda just shows how much of a crapshoot drafting goalies is.

Price is a Vezina, Hart, Jennings and Ted Lindsay winner, multiple all-star and has had a couple of down seasons. He's been a gem on many bad Canadiens teams (who he was drafted by and played for his entire career).

Fleury played 13 seasons for the team that drafted him, 3x Stanley Cup champion.. and while you say head case, many goalies have their quirks.

Lou, sure drafted by the Islanders, but then played his entire career with Florida and Vancouver. The Isles were run by Milbury, and he thought DiPietro was the next big thing.

All 3 are all-stars, Olympians and perennial all-stars.

Yes you can find goalies anywhere in the draft, you can find FA goalies etc.. but these 3 top 5 picks have had extremely long careers, all started very young, and are all playing deep into their 30s.

Price had a run of 3 or 4 years as the top dog in the league, but hes been up and down before and after that run. If youre getting Price I'm fine with the pick but its easier to find a goalie that can do what Price has done in his career than a forward with 4th overall talent.

MAF is impossible to defend as a pick. Hes not very good at all, he went first overall and theres 6 or 7 goalies at least from his generation who are better. You call gim a 3x cup champ but hes really a one time cup champ and likely cost the pens multiple stanley cups wasting the prime of 2 generational players with how bad he was in pressure moments. As soon as the punted him, they won back to back.

Basically if youre not getting Price, its not worth the pick and that high in the draft basically no one becomes that calibre of goalie

 

[MBH]

barf just trade back to 10 if you want one of them

LOL.
I get it.
But Sanderson is going 4-6.
Perfetti is going 4-8.
Askarov 4-16.

Sanderson is without a doubt the best player at his position in the draft (LD) and in my view better than Drysdale, substantially. A chance to be an ELITE defenseman and at worst a very good defenseman.
Askarov is without a doubt the best player in the draft at his position and could be elite. A cornerstone kind of guy. Sure, he could flop and stay n Russia, and I know goalies are riskier.
Out of the remaining forwards, Perfetti is the kid who oozes talent. Best stickhandler in the draft. Top level IQ. But he carries some risk. He's not a powerful skater, despite his agility. He's way more effective at C but it's not clear he can be a C at the NHL level. I also worry he's a candidate for injuries - though he's been healthy thus far. He seems to take hits frequently. In the same way people see Raymond as superior to Holtz, Perfetti is superior to Rossi. Rossi is in his man's body already. He's probably close to NHL ready and close to his athletic prime. Perfetti is nowhere near ready.

 

[Winger98]

Each decision Yzerman made in Tampa Bay - and it's associated consequences - is something he can draw upon and learn from. But that doesn't imply he will duplicate any of it here.

Really, despite how much I enjoy the type of roster Tampa has, I hope their incomplete playoff success has led Yzerman to mold the Wings to be a little less "1996 Detroit", with all the flash and 62 wins, and a little more "1997 Detroit", with a little more edge and balance. Who knows...maybe the Seider pick is the start of exactly that.

And then they can emulate how the careers of Vernon and Osgood began, and use a 3rd round pick on a goalie.

We didn't draft Vernon, though, and he did not come cheap. We gave up Steve Chiasson for him who, at the time, was putting up some pretty nice looking numbers.

And I think Holland was building more towards than 97 team for awhile. guys like Givani Smith, Svechnikov, Mantha, Bert, Rasmussen...those are sandpaper guys. People are excited to have Yzerman here, and the last few years of the Wings making the playoffs left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but I think Holland was doing a nice job of building a farm system of guys to play a certain way and restocking the cupboard.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Nobody has ever built around a goalie alone, no. Just like nobody has ever built around a lone elite defender or lone elite center.

Some combination thereof is the way. And you can absolutely afford to have an elite goalie on your salary if you don't have any depth player overpays hogging up that space.

For the $3-4 million dollar difference between a league average goalie and the elite goalie, I would gladly sacrifice the 3rd line depth guy or a journeyman defender and try to replace that talent with a cheaper player. Someone who is, hmm, "good enough" as people like to say about the goalie they want.

Is the dip between Darren Helm and any number of guys working for barely above league minimum worth the difference between Jimmy Howard and Carey Price? Because that's how I see it. People get in their heads they can replace Price with Ben Bishop and end up gravy. But like... it's really hard to find Ben Bishop's for a decent price. If it was easy, everyone would have one. Instead I'm suggesting you just replace Helm with countless other guys. The different in production is barely going to be felt. But the difference in goaltending is going to be very much noticeable.

Cut money from your bottom lines. Not your starting goalie.

Well I wasn't implying they built around the goalie alone. I was seriously asking because it seems like teams who have elite, franchise goaltenders who are paid as one haven't had tremendous success. Now it could be a function of sample size but it could also have something to do with tying up so much money in goalies. The Wings obviously have been of the philosophy of goaltending that's "good enough" but also had the luxury of Lidstrom on the ice.

How many elite goaltenders have been taken at 4th overall or higher? Price? Luongo? Again asking because I don't really know.

To be clear I know virtually nothing about these prospects so I'm not making some bold stance or hill to die on. The videos I watched of Askarov he looks pretty great. Im just mulling over if it's the right move to take a goalie with such a high pick.

EDIT: saw the list of 1st round goalies earlier in the thread, which doesn't really assuage my concerns. The Wings are in such desperate need of high end talent on the blueline and forward. I'd take a shot at that over potentially having a Fleury or Luongo.

 

[Frk It]

Delete - not worth it

 

[jkutswings]

We didn't draft Vernon, though, and he did not come cheap. We gave up Steve Chiasson for him who, at the time, was putting up some pretty nice looking numbers.

Who was also a third round pick. The point is that goalies can be found in lots of ways without using a top 5 pick.

 

[Bench]

Who was also a third round pick. The point is that goalies can be found in lots of ways without using a top 5 pick.

It's hard to take this seriously when you're using goalie draft position from 1981 as some kind of validation.

By that same token, why bother with a top 5 pick on a defender. Just get Lidstrom in the 3rd round.

 

[Mlotek]

Fleury played 13 seasons for the team that drafted him, 3x Stanley Cup champion.. and while you say head case, many goalies have their quirks.

2 of those were on the bench because he was outplay by a schlub on an ELC.

 

[Bench]

2 of those were on the bench because he was outplay by a schlub on an ELC.

Always funny when Wings fans roast Fluery. Dude stepped up pretty big in this moment.

When I saw that puck hit Lidstrom's stick, I thought for sure the game was tied.

Take a look at the 2003 top 10. Fleury and Suter are the only two guys who have played any level of elite hockey in the last few years. Maybe you could argue for Eric Staal. Of course, if you argue for Eric Staal, who has had down years, then that's pretty comparable to any struggles Fleury had over his long career. And yeah, that's an important fact... his career as a relevant hockey player has been long.

6 of the top 10 are washed out of the damn league right now. Damn risky goalies hanging around so long.

 

[SirloinUB]

Always funny when Wings fans roast Fluery. Dude stepped up pretty big in this moment.

When I saw that puck hit Lidstrom's stick, I thought for sure the game was tied.

Take a look at the 2003 top 10. Fleury and Suter are the only two guys who have played any level of elite hockey in the last few years. Maybe you could argue for Eric Staal. Of course, if you argue for Eric Staal, who has had down years, then that's pretty comparable to any struggles Fleury had over his long career. And yeah, that's an important fact... his career as a relevant hockey player has been long.

6 of the top 10 are washed out of the damn league right now. Damn risky goalies hanging around so long.

1) the point was that Fleury was only the goalie for 1 of 3 cup wins. The picture you shared doesn’t change anything. Yes, he was the true starter for 1 Cup win, no on disputes that.

2) I’ll take Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Suter, Staal, Brent Burns, and Weber, over Fleury. A few others like Jeff Carter, Kesler, Seabrook, and Vanek are in the same ballpark as well.

 

[The Zermanator]

1) the point was that Fleury was only the goalie for 1 of 3 cup wins. The picture you shared doesn’t change anything. Yes, he was the true starter for 1 Cup win, no on disputes that.

2) I’ll take Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Suter, Staal, Brent Burns, and Weber, over Fleury. A few others like Jeff Carter, Kesler, Seabrook, and Vanek are in the same ballpark as well.

If Askarov ends up being the starter for a Cup then sign me up now. Starter or not, Fleury has done at least as well as anybody else you listed when it comes to winning Cups...

 

[Winger98]

Who was also a third round pick. The point is that goalies can be found in lots of ways without using a top 5 pick.

A third round pick what...forty years ago? Why aren't we seeing people throw around Rob Blake or Chris Chelios' draft positions and saying we can get HoF blueliners in a lot of ways?

I don't disagree that you can find goalies in places other than the first, but I think scouting the position has evolved. Instead of being like, "well, we'll just take some fliers on a few 3rd rounders," that might be the latest we can expect to draft a goalie and get some meaningful results.

Long way of saying we might have to invest some more serious draft capital to get a good one. And if we're dealing for one, we're probably going to have to deal some pretty serious trade capital.

On top of that a lot of this goes back to when do you expect to see the Wings get close to being good again? Since Binnington has been mentioned elsewhere, and he fits the idea of one of these 3rd round finds who ends up being able to step in and win playoff games...he was drafted in 2011 as an 18 yr old. It was seven years later that he backstopped the blues.

 

[Bench]

1) the point was that Fleury was only the goalie for 1 of 3 cup wins. The picture you shared doesn’t change anything. Yes, he was the true starter for 1 Cup win, no on disputes that.

2) I’ll take Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Suter, Staal, Brent Burns, and Weber, over Fleury. A few others like Jeff Carter, Kesler, Seabrook, and Vanek are in the same ballpark as well.

1) They absolutely dispute he was worth it despite him sealing game 7 with a clutch save against one of our greatest players. And I think that's weird.

2) The fact you're comparing Fleury at all to all those awesome players only strengthens my argument he belongs.

Again, 6 of the top 10 that year aren't even in the damn NHL anymore. There were far, far worse picks by a magnitude of miles. Fleury was an excellent pick in context of that and the results. Any argument to the contrary is cherry picking and revisionist history.

Fleury was a great pick for the Penguins. Full stop.

 

[MBH]

1) the point was that Fleury was only the goalie for 1 of 3 cup wins. The picture you shared doesn’t change anything. Yes, he was the true starter for 1 Cup win, no on disputes that.

2) I’ll take Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Suter, Staal, Brent Burns, and Weber, over Fleury. A few others like Jeff Carter, Kesler, Seabrook, and Vanek are in the same ballpark as well.

That's true. But he just backstopped an expansion team to the SCF, too.

There's a reasonable claim to be made about drafting a high level goalie and paying him the kind of salary he's going to demand in today's environment, when stars get paid at 21-22.
But the truth is you can make those same claims about McDavid or any player making 1/8th or more of the cap.

 

[Winger98]

Fleury is 5th all time in wins, 17th in shutouts, and 38th in sv%. If we drafted a goalie and he went on to win 466 games for us over the course of his career, I think I'd be pretty okay with that.

 

[SirloinUB]

Fleury is 5th all time in wins, 17th in shutouts, and 38th in sv%. If we drafted a goalie and he went on to win 466 games for us over the course of his career, I think I'd be pretty okay with that.

No one is claiming fleury isn’t a good goalie. But his success is also a result of playing on very good teams. How many of those wins came playing behind Sid and/or Malkin.

 

[Bench]

No one is claiming fleury isn’t a good goalie. But his success is also a result of playing on very good teams. How many of those wins came playing behind Sid and/or Malkin.

And how many Penguin playoff failures were blamed directly on goaltending? It's almost like it's a symbiotic relationship.

It's so strange to see posters here argue against acquiring great goaltending when nearly every top NHL team has gone to great lengths to draft, sign, or trade for a high priced goalie on a big contract at some point. Chicago is often used as some kind of example of cycling goalies, but once they had Crawford, they locked him down. And then won again after doing so. The Kings and Quick. Bruins and Rask. Captials and Holtby. Hell, the Caps went and spent one of their 1st rounders on a goalie while they were in the middle of trying to win a Cup. Conventional wisdom of top NHL minds isn't to cheap out on goaltending... it's the total opposite. It's to pay premium prices to assure you don't get burned by your weak goalie when you've worked so hard to build a great team.

Goaltending can't win you games alone. But it sure can lose them.

Teams like St. Louis floundered until they lucked into a solution. Until Binnington came out of nowhere from the AHL, that team was dead in the water. Imagine building a championship caliber team but you're tanking the entire thing because you're trying to get good enough production from your goaltending - that was the Blues. Cycling in "good enough" guys like Elliot and Allen. The Blues aren't an example of winning with anyone. It's the total opposite. It's an example of how damn important the position is to build a legitimate playoff team.

If you want to rely on right time, right place luck and hope some 3rd rounder comes out of the AHL at age 25 and plays lights out during your PRIME Cup window... yeah, have at it. Personally, I think that's a ridiculous gamble.

 

[rhef3]

If Askarov is the target, then we need to trade back 2-3 spots and collect an additional 2nd

 

[Bench]

If Askarov is the target, then we need to trade back 2-3 spots and collect an additional 2nd

They'll try. Not always possible, though.

Yzerman on drafting Seider:
"We were picking 6 and 35, we had to make a decision; he wasn’t going to be there at 35. We explored options to possibly trade back, we weren’t able to do that."

 

[SirloinUB]

And how many Penguin playoff failures were blamed directly on goaltending? It's almost like it's a symbiotic relationship.

It's so strange to see posters here argue against acquiring great goaltending when nearly every top NHL team has gone to great lengths to draft, sign, or trade for a high priced goalie on a big contract at some point. Chicago is often used as some kind of example of cycling goalies, but once they had Crawford, they locked him down. And then won again after doing so. The Kings and Quick. Bruins and Rask. Captials and Holtby. Hell, the Caps went and spent one of their 1st rounders on a goalie while they were in the middle of trying to win a Cup. Conventional wisdom of top NHL minds isn't to cheap out on goaltending... it's the total opposite. It's to pay premium prices to assure you don't get burned by your weak goalie when you've worked so hard to build a great team.

Goaltending can't win you games alone. But it sure can lose them.

Teams like St. Louis floundered until they lucked into a solution. Until Binnington came out of nowhere from the AHL, that team was dead in the water. Imagine building a championship caliber team but you're tanking the entire thing because you're trying to get good enough production from your goaltending - that was the Blues. Cycling in "good enough" guys like Elliot and Allen. The Blues aren't an example of winning with anyone. It's the total opposite. It's an example of how damn important the position is to build a legitimate playoff team.

If you want to rely on right time, right place luck and hope some 3rd rounder comes out of the AHL at age 25 and plays lights out during your PRIME Cup window... yeah, have at it. Personally, I think that's a ridiculous gamble.

I haven’t seen anyone argue against acquiring great goaltending. I have seen people argue that a top draft pick is better used on an unproven skater vs unproven goalie. I agree with that for a few reasons:

1)Skaters are easier to project

2) hockey is a luck driven sport where outcome vary wildly, none more so than the goalie position.

3) A great goalie on a bad team historically has achieved very little.

4) I prioritize team building at center and D

 

[Bench]

I haven’t seen anyone argue against acquiring great goaltending. I have seen people argue that a top draft pick is better used on an unproven skater vs unproven goalie. I agree with that for a few reasons:

1)Skaters are easier to project

2) hockey is a luck driven sport where outcome vary wildly, none more so than the goalie position.

3) A great goalie on a bad team historically has achieved very little.

4) I prioritize team building at center and D

1) Depends how you look at that. The very top goalies have far higher success rates, on average, than their peers. I've talked about that at length before. It's mainly a virtue of only 1-2 goalies being taken in the 1st round in any given year. They are so much better than their contemporaries, it's hard to mess up those picks these days. If skaters are so much easier to project, why is Fluery one of the guys still with a relevant NHL career and the 6 other guys are done. Why is Carey Price still a fantastic goalie and 5 players in in the top 10 of his draft year are now out of the league.

That's the last 2 top 5 goalies taken, and in both drafts, they are both still producing as starting goalies while half the top 10 is out of the NHL. Doesn't that feel like top goalies are more a sure thing, then? Because they've been so rarely taken, yet, they are still banging away. Can't say that about half the other skaters who are "easier to project."

2) I don't think luck plays that significant a role over and 82 game regular season and 16+ game playoffs. Not anywhere near the level of luck plays in the NFL, for example, with a 16 game season and single elimination playoffs. Outside of injuries, that is. That's just luck. Lucky bounces average out over a hundred games and the great teams tend to the playoffs and go deep. Even the elite scorers go on hot and cold streaks consistently, often due to luck, not a change in their play. But the greats average out strong years.

3) What a strange argument. A great center or defender on a bad team has achieved very little. There's hundreds of examples to pull from here. How is that compelling to the position to hold?

4) This will surprise some of you, but so do I. It just so happens this year, for the first time in literally 15 years, I think the goalie is the best player available after the top 3 skaters. And because I value goaltending as something that can win you playoff games, I prioritize that more than many here who would prefer to bargain bin hunt for goaltending reclamation projects than invest in an elite talent.