Ask the Ref (Rec Hockey) Thread

[I Am Score*]

Uhm, what is rec hockey?

Hockey for people who don't have time outside of their busy lives to join a higher competitive league.

Has nothing to do with skill level arguably.

 

[Slats432]

Does reporting a ref to a league actually accomplish anything?

At the risk of sounding like a whiner, there is one ref in particular who calls everything against us and never calls anything against the other team. We've had him three games in a row and we spend so much time on the PK. One of the guys on my team stupidly told him to 'suck his dick' a few games ago which is probably why he hates us (he rightfully got ejected). I don't condone what the guy did, but should the whole team pay for the rest of the season as the result of one idiot's actions?

I don't expect quality reffing in rec hockey, but at least be professional. It's for fun and no one is having fun when you're on the PK all game. Not to mention the severe lack of ice time.

Today we got 8 minors from him. Some justified, some not. But even so, 8 is just a ridiculous amount for a rec game. Any other ref is 2-3 max.

Obviously it depends on the league, and if enough teams complain, then eventually a league will get it.

I would suggest that if you really had a problem, asking the league to come watch you guys in a game where this guy doesn't ref, then review the game sheets when he does your games, they will get an impression of if your team warrants the calls.

Some teams do just get a lot of penalties.

 

[The Optimist]

Obviously it depends on the league, and if enough teams complain, then eventually a league will get it.

I would suggest that if you really had a problem, asking the league to come watch you guys in a game where this guy doesn't ref, then review the game sheets when he does your games, they will get an impression of if your team warrants the calls.

Some teams do just get a lot of penalties.

I don't see why any other teams would complain when he is gifting them half a game of PPs against us

I guess at the end of the day, if you know he's looking for reasons to penalize you then don't give him any (although the first call of the game was for slashing when someone did a simple stick lift).

As annoying as it is, it's just rec hockey. Go out and have fun.

 

[Skraut]

Had a strange one last night. Not that I would ever complain about getting on the score sheet since it is so rare, but I was stationed in front of the opposing goalie, screening him, while both defenders were also in front of their goalie trying to shove me out from in front of the net (sometimes being 6'3" 280 has its advantages) A teammate takes a shot, it goes off the post and in, with the goalie never moving. As I'm skating back to the bench, I hear the ref call out the goal and the assists to the scorer and credits me with an assist. When he finished I told him I didn't touch the puck. He said, "I know, but without you there that goal never happens."

Is that just a ref being charitable, or can you really get an assist without touching the puck?

 

[Siamese Dream]

Had a strange one last night. Not that I would ever complain about getting on the score sheet since it is so rare, but I was stationed in front of the opposing goalie, screening him, while both defenders were also in front of their goalie trying to shove me out from in front of the net (sometimes being 6'3" 280 has its advantages) A teammate takes a shot, it goes off the post and in, with the goalie never moving. As I'm skating back to the bench, I hear the ref call out the goal and the assists to the scorer and credits me with an assist. When he finished I told him I didn't touch the puck. He said, "I know, but without you there that goal never happens."

Is that just a ref being charitable, or can you really get an assist without touching the puck?

No you can't get one without touching the puck, ref is just being a good guy

 

[Skraut]

No you can't get one without touching the puck, ref is just being a good guy

That's what I thought, and why I questioned him on it. I didn't want to take a stat away from a teammate who was more involved in the passing aspect of the play.

 

[Slats432]

Had a strange one last night. Not that I would ever complain about getting on the score sheet since it is so rare, but I was stationed in front of the opposing goalie, screening him, while both defenders were also in front of their goalie trying to shove me out from in front of the net (sometimes being 6'3" 280 has its advantages) A teammate takes a shot, it goes off the post and in, with the goalie never moving. As I'm skating back to the bench, I hear the ref call out the goal and the assists to the scorer and credits me with an assist. When he finished I told him I didn't touch the puck. He said, "I know, but without you there that goal never happens."

Is that just a ref being charitable, or can you really get an assist without touching the puck?

Personally, I never give out assists to someone else when other players are deserving.

I will though, from time to time, possibly gift a 2nd assist to a player who is a good honest hockey player who was involved in the play. Generally it happens when a team is down by a bunch in a blow out. Gives them a reason to smile in the dressing room after the game.

 

[newfr4u]

ask the ref thread, huh?

what is the worst call you've ever blown?

 

[Slats432]

ask the ref thread, huh?

what is the worst call you've ever blown?

Many. One thing not considered is there is always so much going on, that you can see everything.

A couple times over the years, a guy gets high sticked and is leaking, but because of angle, players in the way, you don't see it....those are the ones that stick with you because you never want to see a guy injured.

The other part is that when you are part of a two man system, it is harder to get the angles to see everything.

Say I am reffing div 1. I am at one blueline. The play is a stretch pass the other way. I skate well but I can't get to the far blueline as fast as a div 1 player...so he goes on a breakaway and I have to make a call whether or not the puck goes over the line. (Not an easy call)

Overall the good refs minimize the bad calls, and if they get one wrong, they are honest about it.

 

[keysersoze98]

ask the ref thread, huh?

what is the worst call you've ever blown?

Great question. I was doing a summer league a few years ago, tie game with 2-3 mins left. After a shot, the puck was loose to the left/behind the goalie about 4-6" from the line. The goalie reached back at the same time a offensive player battling a defenceman swiped at the puck towards the net.

I was on the same side as all of the action, moving along the goal line towards the net and would have bet my right arm it was under the goalie's glove. I blow the play down and waved off "NOOOOOOOOO!". The goalie lifts his glove...no puck. No one ever says it was in. I look around knowing it HAD to be in the net. I look, don't see it....look again....don't see it. It was tucked under the net pad right next to the post, at least 6" past the line. I then called it a goal...and heard it from the crowd (luckily small due to being a summer league) and especially the coach.

The player that scored said he didn't even know he hit the puck, which made me feel a bit better. I guess I didn't really blow the call in the end, but definitely the most embarrassed I've been about a call I made.

 

[cutchemist42]

Is it wrong or right for refs to comment on good plays? As a goalie, I oftentime get comments about a good save, good game overall, team left you out to dry, etc. I've even felt bad after a game where my team is complaining about a ref while I had a good experience with him being friendly towards me in net.
'

 

[SJGoalie32]

Is it wrong or right for refs to comment on good plays? As a goalie, I oftentime get comments about a good save, good game overall, team left you out to dry, etc. I've even felt bad after a game where my team is complaining about a ref while I had a good experience with him being friendly towards me in net.
'

I don't think there is a right or wrong, just whatever the individual ref feels like.


I know everybody is different, but personally, as a goalie, I don't like the commentary in game.....not even compliments. I prefer to just be left alone so I can reset and move on to the next save. Discussing/dwelling on the last play, even for a few extra seconds, just seems to distract my focus.

That phenomenal save appears to be a meaningless footnote and the congratulations seem pretty hollow if the other team scores right off the ensuing defensive zone faceoff.

 

[SJGoalie32]

One thing I've always wondered about the correct official ruling on......

Puck is getting cleared out of the offensive zone. Defenseman at the offensive zone point tries to keep the puck in the zone by gloving it down but can't. Puck makes enough contact with his glove to stop it from going all the way down the ice, but puck still deflects off his glove behind him and into the neutral zone where another teammate picks it up.

Is that a hand pass, or no?

I've seen this play happen countless times, and I've seriously seen it called a hand pass half the time and not a hand pass the other half.

I can understand if the ref simply misses it because the glove touch was so slight as to be almost imperceptible, but I've seen a lot of them where the glove touch is pretty blatantly obvious, it completely changes the trajectory of the puck (like I said, stops in the NZ instead of getting cleared all the way down), but sometimes it's called and sometimes it isn't.

Also seen a few where the glove touch/deflection was blatant, but the puck still had enough force to go all the way down the ice anyway. Is that a hand pass?

 

[Siamese Dream]

One thing I've always wondered about the correct official ruling on......

Puck is getting cleared out of the offensive zone. Defenseman at the offensive zone point tries to keep the puck in the zone by gloving it down but can't. Puck makes enough contact with his glove to stop it from going all the way down the ice, but puck still deflects off his glove behind him and into the neutral zone where another teammate picks it up.

Is that a hand pass, or no?

I've seen this play happen countless times, and I've seriously seen it called a hand pass half the time and not a hand pass the other half.

I can understand if the ref simply misses it because the glove touch was so slight as to be almost imperceptible, but I've seen a lot of them where the glove touch is pretty blatantly obvious, it completely changes the trajectory of the puck (like I said, stops in the NZ instead of getting cleared all the way down), but sometimes it's called and sometimes it isn't.

Also seen a few where the glove touch/deflection was blatant, but the puck still had enough force to go all the way down the ice anyway. Is that a hand pass?

As long as the player doesn't make a batting/swatting motion it's ok

 

[keysersoze98]

One thing I've always wondered about the correct official ruling on......

The USA Hockey rule book states "A player or goalkeeper shall not be allowed to “bat†the puck in the air, or push it along the ice with his hand".

Therefore, if it just deflects off his glove, it is not a hand pass.

 

[Slats432]

Is it wrong or right for refs to comment on good plays? As a goalie, I oftentime get comments about a good save, good game overall, team left you out to dry, etc. I've even felt bad after a game where my team is complaining about a ref while I had a good experience with him being friendly towards me in net.
'

Oddly, I will mention a good save, but never a good play by a player. I don't know why it is, probably because refs normally interact with goalies more than individual players. (Puck in the net, net off, handing the puck to ref). Also, you can say good save without it sounding like cheering for one team or another, and it doesn't look like bias.

 

[Slats432]

One thing I've always wondered about the correct official ruling on......

Puck is getting cleared out of the offensive zone. Defenseman at the offensive zone point tries to keep the puck in the zone by gloving it down but can't. Puck makes enough contact with his glove to stop it from going all the way down the ice, but puck still deflects off his glove behind him and into the neutral zone where another teammate picks it up.

Is that a hand pass, or no?

I've seen this play happen countless times, and I've seriously seen it called a hand pass half the time and not a hand pass the other half.

I can understand if the ref simply misses it because the glove touch was so slight as to be almost imperceptible, but I've seen a lot of them where the glove touch is pretty blatantly obvious, it completely changes the trajectory of the puck (like I said, stops in the NZ instead of getting cleared all the way down), but sometimes it's called and sometimes it isn't.

Also seen a few where the glove touch/deflection was blatant, but the puck still had enough force to go all the way down the ice anyway. Is that a hand pass?

The rec hockey interpretation might be varied from ref to ref. Here is mine.

If a player puts his hand up and the puck deflects significantly enough to gain any advantage, I would call a glove pass. If the puck travels to an area where no advantage is gained, or all the way down the ice, then I would allow play to continue.

 

[OkimLom]

Slats,

Ive had many instances of this happen to teams I've played on and was always confused. I used to think that captains were the only ones that can talk about a penalty to the ref.

Little background on me as a player: I'm usually a player that, in my opinion, tries to come off respectful and play a honest game, and try not to ruffle too many feathers. I'm a player that will go up the ref and ask what he saw on a penalty, not why he made the call regardless if I'm captain or not.

Well a few months ago, I lifted a stick of a player going around the net. The ref that was blinded of the play because of the net called me for holding. Now while I skated over to the box, I was chatting with the other ref about what the call was. I explained I lifted the lower part of shaft and kind of held the stick up where the shaft and the blade meet, which didn't allow the player to bring down his stick. As I did that I turned my body so we were side to side and thats where the other ref mustve saw the "holding". At no point did I take my two hands off the stick.

After I spoke with the ref that didn't call it, he went over to the one that called it. Explained to him what he saw and I was then told I didn't have the penalty and faceoff would be in our zone. Of course the other team complained that since I wasn't captained, I shouldn't have been able to talk to either ref and therefore the penalty should still be called.

My question to you is, Would that be called a penalty, and have you ever reversed a decision based on a conversation with another player besides the captain? I was actually surprised it was reversed.

Also, does a player's reaction to calls influence ones judegement on a player and whether or not a player meant to do something?

 

[JR97]

I was actually surprised it was reversed.

wow. Personally, I think that's kinda bs the call was reversed by the non-calling ref. Maybe they discuss it, but once it's in the books it should be in the books. I'm not a fan of players appealing penalties other than getting clarification, which it sounds like what you were basically doing. But to have that conversation result in an overturned call just opens the door for players to chat up the ref on every call captain or not.

 

[Slats432]

Slats,

Ive had many instances of this happen to teams I've played on and was always confused. I used to think that captains were the only ones that can talk about a penalty to the ref.

Little background on me as a player: I'm usually a player that, in my opinion, tries to come off respectful and play a honest game, and try not to ruffle too many feathers. I'm a player that will go up the ref and ask what he saw on a penalty, not why he made the call regardless if I'm captain or not.

Well a few months ago, I lifted a stick of a player going around the net. The ref that was blinded of the play because of the net called me for holding. Now while I skated over to the box, I was chatting with the other ref about what the call was. I explained I lifted the lower part of shaft and kind of held the stick up where the shaft and the blade meet, which didn't allow the player to bring down his stick. As I did that I turned my body so we were side to side and thats where the other ref mustve saw the "holding". At no point did I take my two hands off the stick.

After I spoke with the ref that didn't call it, he went over to the one that called it. Explained to him what he saw and I was then told I didn't have the penalty and faceoff would be in our zone. Of course the other team complained that since I wasn't captained, I shouldn't have been able to talk to either ref and therefore the penalty should still be called.

My question to you is, Would that be called a penalty, and have you ever reversed a decision based on a conversation with another player besides the captain? I was actually surprised it was reversed.

Also, does a player's reaction to calls influence ones judegement on a player and whether or not a player meant to do something?

Question 1: Would I reverse a call?
This is all circumstance related. I have had calls where I have talked to my partner, and through discussion, he with a totally clear view, and mine somewhat obstructed, in certain instances, I have overruled my own call. Very rare though. I wouldn't let a player's opinion of a call change my mind, only my partner if he had a better view. You can't afford as a ref to allow for players to "lobby" for calls and be wishy washy.

Question 2: Was it a penalty? You can still be called for holding with two hands on the stick if your hands are in a place that prevents a player from moving forward. If it was a stick lift and your hands aren't touching him in any way, then it isn't a call.

Question 3: Does the approach of a player affect how I view the player?

After reffing the same guys for years, you know them. You know what they are capable of doing, and whether they are dirty. You also know there are players that seemingly get mauled out there, and the guys that do the mauling.

If a guy is a good honest player, is it possible for the odd call go his way because of the type of player he is? Sure, but if a call is there, a call is there. For example, an accidental collision vs. body contact.

There were a bunch of questions there, let me know if there is something I didn't cover.

 

[neksys]

wow. Personally, I think that's kinda bs the call was reversed by the non-calling ref. Maybe they discuss it, but once it's in the books it should be in the books. I'm not a fan of players appealing penalties other than getting clarification, which it sounds like what you were basically doing. But to have that conversation result in an overturned call just opens the door for players to chat up the ref on every call captain or not.

Exactly this. I think its a slippery slope if you start getting changes based on complaining - even if you're right. Before long that is just the practice - everyone complains loudly and often in the hopes the call gets reversed.

I'd rather the ref own the mistake afterwards - "Hey, I thought I had a good call there but the other ref says I blew it. My bad, but you know these things even out" or whatever -- because that's 100% correct, they all even out in the long run

 

[Slats432]

Exactly this. I think its a slippery slope if you start getting changes based on complaining - even if you're right. Before long that is just the practice - everyone complains loudly and often in the hopes the call gets reversed.

I'd rather the ref own the mistake afterwards - "Hey, I thought I had a good call there but the other ref says I blew it. My bad, but you know these things even out" or whatever -- because that's 100% correct, they all even out in the long run

On Saturday, I totally blew an offside because as the guy outside the blueline, you watch two things, in front of the net, and offside.

Two guys were really jostling in front as a guy was curling on the blueline with the puck. I am sure he kept it in, but I could only watch out of the corner of my eye because of the guys being knuckleheads in front. I whistled it down.

After the game, I went to the player and said "I may have blown the offside call but it was your buddies fault for getting his stick up in front of the net...(Buddy was right there as well, and I was smiling)."

They will understand if they get the explanation. I don't explain all the time, but if they think I have blown it and they are decent guys, I will take the time to seek them out.

 

[cutchemist42]

Going back to the hand stuff. As a goalie, I could not swat the puck out of the air with my blocker to someone? Or push the puck to my teammate with say my blocker in desperation? Am I reading that right?

 

[keysersoze98]

Going back to the hand stuff. As a goalie, I could not swat the puck out of the air with my blocker to someone? Or push the puck to my teammate with say my blocker in desperation? Am I reading that right?

Goalies are exempt from most of the hand pass rules.

 

[beenhereandthere]

A little bit of a different question, but it does tie into refereeing. If you are a US citizen (only US) and you live say in Buffalo or Detroit, can you, if you go through the Hockey Canada seminars, etc, etc, work games in Canada, without having to do through stuff like work permits, etc? Same thing, if say someone lived in Windsor and wanted to do games in Greater Detroit, where there's more opportunity for games (based on population)?
Has anyone done this, without having to get more than a simple piece of paper? Seems to me, there's no issue, if you're not getting paid to ref, but what customs goon is going to believe that?