Article: It's time for Kenny to go

[WingedWheel1987]

Considering that Holland knew Datsyuk was retiring before he gave Helm and Gator those atrocious contracts, he didn't change anything.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Why is it only those 3 we talk about?

Why not:
Legwand, Cole, Helm, Abdelkader, Samuelsson, Weiss, Cleary, Ericcson, Helm, Miller, Richards, Colaiacovo, Howard, Daley, or a couple others? I never liked the DeKeyser contract, but at least he's still young enough to plus it up. Doubt it happens, but at least there's a slim chance.

In that list are players acquired via trade, FA, or re-signing, and I wasn't a fan of the moves for any number of reasons. Hank and Kronwall would have been better served shaping the next generation through their mid to late 30s, so those contracts don't bother me much.

I mean, the Tigers were/are shopping Fulmer, even after moving Verlander and Upton... years after moving star players that were looking at huge contracts in FA. Maybe they sold too much, and I know that circumstances are different without the hard cap, but the Wings could have easily been sellers at the trade deadline for more than just the past year.

The Tigers were listening on Fulmer. They were not shopping him around. Had teams not been reticent to deal for their high dollar value guys, they never would have listened.

Legwand, Cole, Helm, Abdelkader, Samuelsson, Weiss, Cleary, Ericcson, Helm, Miller, Richards, Colaiacovo, Howard, Daley, or a couple others?

Let's break down this list.

Legwand - traded when we had a nasty nasty rash of center injuries. Gave up Jarnkrok (20-30 point C making 2M), Eaves (who was injured as hell and had no spot with Detroit, his bounceback year wasn't gonna happen here), and a 2nd. I couldn't tell you who was taken with that pick.

Cole - He was exactly what the Wings needed in that playoff run. Fast, strong skater in the mold of a faster Johan Franzen. If his neck doesn't explode before the playoffs, they likely beat Tampa in the first round and that's the year Tampa made it all the way to the Finals. Gave up Janmark (topped out at 30-ish points, currently horrific injury had him on sidelines) and Backman who is back in Sweden and will never play an NHL game.

Helm + Abby - good complaint. Those were not good contracts for the skill set those guys bring. Holland's issue was this was he felt he couldn't lose them. They do have unique skills, but they're not irreplaceable on a good team.

Samuelsson - Awful contract. This one, Cola, and Tootoo were panic moves. They had big Ryan Suter plans for 2012 and he played them for saps until all the worthwhile talent was gone.

Weiss - He fell apart completely due to injuries that were not an issue when he signed. Had he sucked because his wrist? Put it all on Holland. That was the red flag on Weiss, not his groin. Before they signed him, he was a legit 2C capable of 55-60 points.

Cleary - That scenario was a joke. I think the NHL's punishment of clear cap circumvention was to force/allow us to have Dan Cleary on our roster for three years. If he was worth anything offensively or defensively, we would have gotten a big penalty from this.

Ericsson - Signed when he was an decent top 4D to decent top 4D money. He's had several injuries after the fact. A hip impingement and a shattered finger? Those aren't ones that are a normal person's worry about a guy who plays like he did.

Miller - He's eminently replaceable, but they never paid him more than what a replaceable 4th line winger should be paid. Why the hell is he on this list? He's a fine PK specialist who I think topped out at 1M a year.

Richards - It was an okay idea, but he never meshed with the Wings style of play. He took 3M in cap space for one year and then was gone.

Cola - as I mentioned in Sammy's, he was a panic signing. If you want to roast Holland for anything... the 2012 FA period was probably his worst offseason as a GM because he had Ryan Suter money but after him and Parise took the Wings offer as leverage to Minnesota, nothing was left. They then blew the money on garbage.

Howard - I will never understand how this contract came to be viewed so poorly. He was an above average NHL starter who got average starter money. At time of contract, three of four years were .920+ sv%. They had Mrazek in the wings as a big time prospect, sure, but they thought Thomas McCollum was a dynamite goalie prospect once upon a time too. I will never fault them for wanting cost certainty in net. Mrazek has kinda been a fly in the ointment. He's been so fantastic that they needed to pay up for him and so bad that they can't fully trust him to be the goalie of the future. Mrazek in the previous two seasons was the guy who embodied the "if this guy breaks out, we will find a way to pay him", but he was trash in 16-17.

Daley - He's a solid top 4D option that they're paying 3M to. If they trade Green for futures like everyone wants, they'll have Danny DeKeyser and nobody else. His contract didn't prevent them from making any moves. They're not going to lose AA because of it like you'll want to say.

The bigger problem is that there have been possibilities to drastically change the future of the team (Myers, Bouwmeester for a couple, maybe Fowler if they went harder at it in the 2016 Draft.) and Holland puckered when it came time to make the move. He sat on what he had as it slowly deteriorated.

His FA moves haven't been good, but at least half of them failed for reasons beyond his control.

 

[Frk It]

The Tigers were listening on Fulmer. They were not shopping him around. Had teams not been reticent to deal for their high dollar value guys, they never would have listened.

Legwand, Cole, Helm, Abdelkader, Samuelsson, Weiss, Cleary, Ericcson, Helm, Miller, Richards, Colaiacovo, Howard, Daley, or a couple others?

Let's break down this list.

Legwand - traded when we had a nasty nasty rash of center injuries. Gave up Jarnkrok (20-30 point C making 2M), Eaves (who was injured as hell and had no spot with Detroit, his bounceback year wasn't gonna happen here), and a 2nd. I couldn't tell you who was taken with that pick.

Cole - He was exactly what the Wings needed in that playoff run. Fast, strong skater in the mold of a faster Johan Franzen. If his neck doesn't explode before the playoffs, they likely beat Tampa in the first round and that's the year Tampa made it all the way to the Finals. Gave up Janmark (topped out at 30-ish points, currently horrific injury had him on sidelines) and Backman who is back in Sweden and will never play an NHL game.

Helm + Abby - good complaint. Those were not good contracts for the skill set those guys bring. Holland's issue was this was he felt he couldn't lose them. They do have unique skills, but they're not irreplaceable on a good team.

Samuelsson - Awful contract. This one, Cola, and Tootoo were panic moves. They had big Ryan Suter plans for 2012 and he played them for saps until all the worthwhile talent was gone.

Weiss - He fell apart completely due to injuries that were not an issue when he signed. Had he sucked because his wrist? Put it all on Holland. That was the red flag on Weiss, not his groin. Before they signed him, he was a legit 2C capable of 55-60 points.

Cleary - That scenario was a joke. I think the NHL's punishment of clear cap circumvention was to force/allow us to have Dan Cleary on our roster for three years. If he was worth anything offensively or defensively, we would have gotten a big penalty from this.

Ericsson - Signed when he was an decent top 4D to decent top 4D money. He's had several injuries after the fact. A hip impingement and a shattered finger? Those aren't ones that are a normal person's worry about a guy who plays like he did.

Miller - He's eminently replaceable, but they never paid him more than what a replaceable 4th line winger should be paid. Why the hell is he on this list? He's a fine PK specialist who I think topped out at 1M a year.

Richards - It was an okay idea, but he never meshed with the Wings style of play. He took 3M in cap space for one year and then was gone.

Cola - as I mentioned in Sammy's, he was a panic signing. If you want to roast Holland for anything... the 2012 FA period was probably his worst offseason as a GM because he had Ryan Suter money but after him and Parise took the Wings offer as leverage to Minnesota, nothing was left. They then blew the money on garbage.

Howard - I will never understand how this contract came to be viewed so poorly. He was an above average NHL starter who got average starter money. At time of contract, three of four years were .920+ sv%. They had Mrazek in the wings as a big time prospect, sure, but they thought Thomas McCollum was a dynamite goalie prospect once upon a time too. I will never fault them for wanting cost certainty in net. Mrazek has kinda been a fly in the ointment. He's been so fantastic that they needed to pay up for him and so bad that they can't fully trust him to be the goalie of the future. Mrazek in the previous two seasons was the guy who embodied the "if this guy breaks out, we will find a way to pay him", but he was trash in 16-17.

Daley - He's a solid top 4D option that they're paying 3M to. If they trade Green for futures like everyone wants, they'll have Danny DeKeyser and nobody else. His contract didn't prevent them from making any moves. They're not going to lose AA because of it like you'll want to say.

The bigger problem is that there have been possibilities to drastically change the future of the team (Myers, Bouwmeester for a couple, maybe Fowler if they went harder at it in the 2016 Draft.) and Holland puckered when it came time to make the move. He sat on what he had as it slowly deteriorated.

His FA moves haven't been good, but at least half of them failed for reasons beyond his control.

Look at the average age of that group.... then tell me the issues that arose were out of his control.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

The Tigers were listening on Fulmer. They were not shopping him around. Had teams not been reticent to deal for their high dollar value guys, they never would have listened.

Legwand, Cole, Helm, Abdelkader, Samuelsson, Weiss, Cleary, Ericcson, Helm, Miller, Richards, Colaiacovo, Howard, Daley, or a couple others?

Let's break down this list.

That's a good breakdown and I agree with a lot of it.

Underneath all of these questionable deals and contracts is that this team has no core and few assets.

What is Holland's plan to address that as he has zero cap flexibility and is putting the team in the position to be first round playoff fodder (at best if everything goes exceptionally well)?

 

[Ezekial]

Look at the average age of that group.... then tell me the issues that arose were out of his control.

What do you expect of a grouping of mainly UFA contracts and a couple rentals? I mean it's at terrible list and a true indictment of Holland's failure as a GM recently, but of course the average age is high

 

[Frk It]

What do you expect of a grouping of mainly UFA contracts and a couple rentals? I mean it's at terrible list and a true indictment of Holland's failure as a GM recently, but of course the average age is high

I would expect them to be up there in age. And I would expect a GM would not be absolved of injury issues that happen to a group of players that are up there in age, as that is an inherent risk in that scenario.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I would expect them to be up there in age. And I would expect a GM would not be absolved of injury issues that happen to a group of players that are up there in age, as that is an inherent risk in that scenario.

I mean, Weiss was 30 at contract signing and was injured pretty much immediately.

Ericsson's more serious injury is the destroyed finger and that's not an age-related one. Unless Marc Methot was a higher injury risk for losing the tip of his finger for being 31.

Howard was almost 30 at contract signing, but he really also only had 4 NHL seasons at that point. So he far less miles on him than, say, a Carey Price or Corey Crawford who were much younger than him.

If they signed Richards and he went down immediately? Sure, he was 37, what do you expect. However, 30 years old is not any time when you should be falling apart physically.,, particularly when you didn't break into the league until 25 (Howard)

 

[avssuc]

The Tigers were listening on Fulmer. They were not shopping him around. Had teams not been reticent to deal for their high dollar value guys, they never would have listened.

Legwand, Cole, Helm, Abdelkader, Samuelsson, Weiss, Cleary, Ericcson, Helm, Miller, Richards, Colaiacovo, Howard, Daley, or a couple others?

Let's break down this list.

Death by a thousand cuts dude...

Let's start with Ericcson since his contract influences the Legwand trade:


-Ericcson
Don't re-sign him in November of 2013, shop him at the deadline of 2014. There were 5 defensemen moved at the TDL, so he could have probably snatched a 4th or 5th round pick.

-Legwand
Since the Wings didn't re-up on Ericcson, they are now probably/hopefully sellers at the TDL 2014. Jarnkrok gets called up instead of being shipped out, the Wings save a 3rd round pick (lost in the Legwand deal), grab an extra 5th, and save on the $4.25 cap hit they gave Ericcson. That summer, if the Wings don't re-sign Quincey @ $4.25 and Cleary @ $1.25, it's $9.75 saved. That would have given the Wings money to go after some UFA's that fit better with the ageing core, or taken on bad contracts in exchange for draft picks. But with Crazy Kenny giving away money on July 1, I'm not so sure this would have been a good idea.

-Howard
Had a career average .917 SV% prior to that contract with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall defending him, Pav and Hank controlling the puck up front (all in their primes minus Lidstrom). He's had a .913 SV% avarage since, on a team that was trending negatively with a quickness due to age and injury. Why not try to move him as the core is all but done? Maybe try to build a new core as you milk Hank and Pav for a couple more years? His body of work didn't merit that contract and still doesn't. The micro picture was all Holland cared about when it should be the macro, especially when his team was trending in the wrong direction. That's just bad business sense by KH... and it's why the Wings are where they are now.

-Cole
Sure, he was a useful piece, but he'd only played more than 70 games 3 times in the 7 seasons prior, only making it to the postseason once (injuries and non performing teams). He would have been the 'perfect piece' on a team that had a legitimate shot, not a meddling bottom tier playoff team. As with the Legwand deal, you forgot to mention the draft pick traded by Detroit... this time it was a 2nd round pick (swapped for a Dallas 3rd). Just as Jarnkrok showed he could play as a 2C in the SC final, losing Janmark was losing a future 2nd line winger. That's 2/3 of the Wings future top 6 with two desperation trades, and that doesn't account for the draft picks lost.

-Miller
Redundant piece that could have been replaced by any number of guys in GR. PK is pretty easy, it just requires a willingness to get hit with pucks. The only reason folks mention it with him is because it's all he had. That, and the Michigan connection.

-Richards
I'd say that he should have been traded at the TDL, but he was so bad that I doubt that was a possibility. This signing becomes unnecessary if Jarnkrok stays, so that frees up space to improve elsewhere, or take on a bad contract for futures. There is no way to look at this move in any positive light.

-Daley
Is not a "solid top 4 option" on the majority of NHL teams. Do a quick Google search and you will find stuff like "solid bottom paring" and "solid depth". He will fill a top role here because of the lack of talent. He's a stop-gap piece on a team that doesn't need those pieces. They need futures. The only way this works out is if he somehow plays so far beyond his ceiling that some team wants him at the TDL. That's tough to picture with the years attached, at least right now.

The rest of your list you either agreed or you made an excuse for.

You mention:

His FA moves haven't been good, but at least half of them failed for reasons beyond his control.

This is something that's always accounted for. Weiss was signed hurt, Cole was traded for while ailing, the reason Legwand was traded for was because Helm was being Helm, and the list goes on. Like Frk mentions, age is a large factor. KH is still accountable, regardless of the unfortunate circumstance. Fischer and Vladdy were situations you don't account for, everyone else fit in somewhere on the analytical risk evaluation.

Everyone touts Hollands ability to draft, so wouldn't it have made sense to give him more ammo in the draft? Since he limited the futures for his team, and since he spent to the cap every year (with insanely long contracts to some), we sit here now and eagerly watch to see some positive news on one of the Wings best young players as he gets ready to defect to Russia. This is as close to rock bottom as the franchise has been since Yzerman came to town. Maybe, in poetic fashion, he will return to save us again? I'm not saying that I want that, but it would be a pretty good story if it worked out. I'd rather remember him like I do now, not how I remember Joe D, so I'd like to go another way. Really, it's just time to move on. Hopefully we can all remember KH for the dynasty he helped to maintain, but the longer he stays making things worse, the more that memory will be difficult to have.

 

[Lampedampe]

Mostly just a fun video. But it does sum up a lot of the feelings people have towards Holland and the current state of the team.

 

[Henkka]

-Howard
Had a career average .917 SV% prior to that contract with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall defending him, Pav and Hank controlling the puck up front (all in their primes minus Lidstrom). He's had a .913 SV% avarage since, on a team that was trending negatively with a quickness due to age and injury. Why not try to move him as the core is all but done? Maybe try to build a new core as you milk Hank and Pav for a couple more years? His body of work didn't merit that contract and still doesn't. The micro picture was all Holland cared about when it should be the macro, especially when his team was trending in the wrong direction. That's just bad business sense by KH... and it's why the Wings are where they are now.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...2013&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,160&sort=savePctg

Jimmy Howard had pretty nice stats compared to other goalies of that time.

He went 2 seasons without Rafalski and 1 season without Lidström. Stuart was also off from Detroit on that last season.

Howard is the best Red Wings regular season goaltender since the cap was implemented in 2005 and at NHL TOP6 on his first 4 seasons. And on that time he was signed to 10th highest goalie caphit. It felt like a small bargain on the signing moment.

His injuries started after the re-signing (april 2013), at 2013-14 season. There was nothing wrong on the time of signing. All the bad luck with injuries happened AFTERWARDS.

 

[Mijatovic]

And yet he was still had damn good stats last year while healthy.

 

[avssuc]

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...2013&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,160&sort=savePctg

Jimmy Howard had pretty nice stats compared to other goalies of that time.

He went 2 seasons without Rafalski and 1 season without Lidström. Stuart was also off from Detroit on that last season.

Howard is the best Red Wings regular season goaltender since the cap was implemented in 2005 and at NHL TOP6 on his first 4 seasons. And on that time he was signed to 10th highest goalie caphit. It felt like a small bargain on the signing moment.

His injuries started after the re-signing (april 2013), at 2013-14 season. There was nothing wrong on the time of signing. All the bad luck with injuries happened AFTERWARDS.

I forgot to mention a prime Ericcson too (sarcasm font). Bit yea, dude must have done something to earn that $4.25 hit.

So... what you're saying is, Howard was a slight value on the ELC & RFA contracts, but a disaster on the following? Tell me how this fits into the AA thread, then see if you can eat the cake too.

 

[avssuc]

And yet he was still had damn good stats last year *while healthy.

Asterisk marks the spot on this one.
He might not be Uwe Krupp, but he's Helming it up pretty good these last two years.

It's pretty easy to ride one small hot streak and turn in a good stat line if you only play a tiny fraction of the season. That's about all that happened last year.

Fact is, he's had one consistent top 5 season, he's never been special in the postseason, and he's been hurt ever since he got paid. At best, he's nothing special, at worst, he's occasionally holding a spot, and significant cap space, on a terrible team.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Mostly just a fun video. But it does sum up a lot of the feelings people have towards Holland and the current state of the team.

Link fix. But I agree with the video. It's depressing, but it's hard to say he's wrong.

 

[HIFE]

Link fix. But I agree with the video. It's depressing, but it's hard to say he's wrong.

Depressing, this is hilarious! The fall of an empire. "**** we need another veteran because our prospects haven't gestated for 5 years!" All posts should be made with video and narration included.

Pretty harsh but I agree hard to say he's wrong. The central criticism is that Holland refused to step upstairs in 2009 and the franchise has made more bad decisions than good since.

 

[avssuc]

Depressing, this is hilarious! The fall of an empire. "**** we need another veteran because our prospects haven't gestated for 5 years!" All posts should be made with video and narration included.

Pretty harsh but I agree hard to say he's wrong. The central criticism is that Holland refused to step upstairs in 2009 and the franchise has made more bad decisions than good since.

It would be awesome if someone hacked the big screen in the Pizza Palace on opening night and replaced the Wings nostalgia porn with this video.

I don't agree with all of it, but I'd love to see Holland trapped on the ice as that plays to the world.

 

[Shaman464]

Link fix. But I agree with the video. It's depressing, but it's hard to say he's wrong.

I don't just want Holland fired, I want him fired out of a cannon into the Sun.

That being said. This is bombastic, hyperbolic, and completely laughable. From the voice the narrator uses on down. Yeah Yzerman should have been kept for GM, yeah Holland has made a lot of missteps but this guy is literally captain hindsight.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't just want Holland fired, I want him fired out of a cannon into the Sun.

That being said. This is bombastic, hyperbolic, and completely laughable. From the voice the narrator uses on down. Yeah Yzerman should have been kept for GM, yeah Holland has made a lot of missteps but this guy is literally captain hindsight.

His entire channel is meant for an entertainment factor, not hard hitting analysis.

I don't think he said anything that we don't already know, more that he put it in a format for more entertainment. If that is the first time watching one of his videos I can see you being a bit put off by it.

 

[Red Stanley]

So according to this video the RW are Rome, Holland is the emperor (all of them apparently), Mike Ilitch is the court jester, the fans are the unwashed pleb masses, and he is the drama queen who is going to entertain said masses with partial nudity, goat blood and a sock puppet show.

Sounds about right.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

No.

Why the hell does everyone ignore that pretty much all of the big salary related rule changes were aimed at Detroit and teams like them?

The cap was put in place and it directly killed the Wings ability to just outspend other teams or at least to not get outspent on a guy they really wanted. You think the Wings don't land Ryan Suter in a pre-cap era that year?

I mean, it doesn't excuse the fact that Holland has been ineffective in a lot of other ways, but the rulebook has continuously shifted on them in an effort to disrupt what they were doing because they were at the top for so long.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

What does the change to the salary cap have to do with the state of the DRW organization? The Wings are in purgatory because they spent like crazy on mediocre talent. Their situation is 100% self inflicted and a lot of it was avoidable, even without the benefit of hindsight.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I forgot to mention a prime Ericcson too (sarcasm font). Bit yea, dude must have done something to earn that $4.25 hit.

So... what you're saying is, Howard was a slight value on the ELC & RFA contracts, but a disaster on the following? Tell me how this fits into the AA thread, then see if you can eat the cake too.

Howard wasn't a slight value on ELC and RFA. He was GREAT value.

11-12, 12-13.

.920 and .923 sv%. 2.12 and 2.13 GAA.

Those are fantastic numbers for a goalie making 2.25M

Then he got hurt/was ineffective the first year of his 5.3M deal.

Then, of course you forget, but he was legit All-star good in the first half of 2014 and ripped his groin. Then was trash when he came back because he tried coming back to soon with Petr gearing up to steal his job.

Howard was good value on ELC, great value on bridge, and has ended up being mixed to slightly bad value on his long term deal due to injury.

 

[Henkka]

Where's that 4-year extension for Holland? It would perfect to publish it now.

We all know it's coming.

 

[jkutswings]

At the time of the Howard signing, I had zero issue with the AAV. It was the term that was 1-2 years too long. I viewed Jimmy as being a very good regular season goaltender, but not a guy who I thought could stay on his game for a deep playoff run, so I would've given him 2-3 years, to hold the fort just until Mrazek was ready, then cut him loose.

 

[dragonballgtz]

Link fix. But I agree with the video. It's depressing, but it's hard to say he's wrong.

I still think the decline came when Bowman left as adviser.