Article Debunking Myth About Senators 'Playoff Attendance Problem'

[shoeshine boy]

Still over 500 tickets for sale in Pittsburgh for game 7, and these are not resale.

Hmmmmmmmm

[MOD]Ottawa had SEVERAL entire rows available for sale the morning of game 6. that is not the case in Pittsburgh. I don't know at exactly what point the NHL/arena management consider a venue "sold out" but I know there are almost always some tickets available (not talking re-sale market) to almost any event.

 

[alfierulestheworld]

[MOD] Ottawa had SEVERAL entire rows available for sale the morning of game 6. that is not the case in Pittsburgh. I don't know at exactly what point the NHL/arena management consider a venue "sold out" but I know there are almost always some tickets available (not talking re-sale market) to almost any event.

Check the map, plenty of blue seats there

And based on the amount of resales too the fans don't seem to be too hyped up

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

[MOD] Ottawa had SEVERAL entire rows available for sale the morning of game 6. that is not the case in Pittsburgh. I don't know at exactly what point the NHL/arena management consider a venue "sold out" but I know there are almost always some tickets available (not talking re-sale market) to almost any event.

Huh. Look at that. It's almost like defending your team against accusations you feel are unfair is human nature or something.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Still over 500 tickets for sale in Pittsburgh for game 7, and these are not resale.

Hmmmmmmmm

Meh, it's the same as Sens tickets to a degree. No one knew that game would happen so takes a bit of time to soak up the seats.

For the Sens, pretty much half the city was away for the long weekend, before which, there was no game 6 yet. So by the time everyone got back Monday night, there were still 1,000's of seats left. Most got gobbled up but a few got left because of the crazy prices.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Still over 500 tickets for sale in Pittsburgh for game 7, and these are not resale.

Hmmmmmmmm

Pens fans have had 2 days to buy Game 7 tickets

Sens fans had 4 days to buy Game 6 tickets


huge difference

 

[Inkling]

It's really all irrelevant. All teams release tickets that have been held back for media, players, the league etc. Some more than others. If Pittsburgh doesn't sell out Game 7 it will be a big story, but I imagine they almost certainly will. If Ottawa sold out all the games, no one would be talking about how many blue dots are still appearing on game day. It's not a double standard; sell out and no one will talk about you, don't and people will. It's tiresome but that's where we are.

 

[cedric35]

Pens fans have had 2 days to buy Game 7 tickets

Sens fans had 4 days to buy Game 6 tickets


huge difference

The difference, as you put it, is that is was the first official long weekend of the spring (Easter doesn't count). Lots of families make plans to go to cottages, out of town trips, etc... Not really sure why this isn't being taken into account.

Just like game 3 (I think) against the Rangers. It was the first 30 degree day in 9 - 10 months. Pretty sure people saw that weather and immediately thought 'Patio time!!'

They may sound like silly reasons to some, but they had a legitimate impact.

 

[Korpse]

Pens fans have had 2 days to buy Game 7 tickets

Sens fans had 4 days to buy Game 6 tickets


huge difference

Maybe in a world with dail up internet.

 

[Spartachat]

Pens fans have had 2 days to buy Game 7 tickets

Sens fans had 4 days to buy Game 6 tickets


huge difference

The tickets for game 7 in Pittsburgh were on sale during the weekend on ticketmaster.

 

[NorthCoast]

I can understand that view from the outside, but nothing could be further from the truth. The city is hockey crazy for the Sens - they are close to the top revenue per capita in the NHL. The city punches way above it's weight class in terms of fans and revenue. Certainly per capita, they actually generate substantially more revenue than either Toronto or Montreal. And that is despite having a decent subset of other teams fans here too.

to that point, there is certainly a solid base of original six fans here. The city loves hockey, and many fans were fans of team before the Sens arrived. I know for my generation, we all grew up with a favorite team given we didn't have one. Most people changed, and some didn't (not just Montreal and Toronto - see a regular season game for the Wings, Bruins, Hawks or Rangers - tons of local fans). Some have Sens as their second favorite, others hate them (mostly Leaf and Habs fans, for natural fun reasons). I get how some people see this as a bad thing, but really it is just fans who were deep rooted in their original team, and couldn't make the switch. And again, the city is hockey crazy. The different fan mix should be celebrated to a degree. I no other city is water cooler talk on hockey so intense and heated.

As to your assertion that "Most fans" cheer for someone else, that's obviously ridiculous. I'm sure you were just exaggerating to try and make a point. More than 90% of hockey fans are going for the Sens I'd guess, but that still leaves probably 50,000 people who are fans of other teams here.

As to the non-sell out, as a season ticket holder, I can tell you this lies firmly on the team. They have consistently tried to use playoff tickets to get fans to sign up for season tickets, and for those on a budget, it just doesn't fly any more. And if they don't sign up, making them pay 2.5 times what others are paying, just rubs people the wrong way (now that they've figured it out). The Sens could have sold out the building 2 times over if they hadn't tried charging $400 for a $200 seat. That's a lot of $'s to expect most fans to pay, especially when they know others paid less than $200.

Honestly, reading this thread, and all the amateur analysis by the major media, is pretty comical from a professional marketers perspective. Everyone needs to pay attention to the last paragraph above.

The objective of the sens is not to sell out the arena, it's to maximise revenues.

Let's repeat that. The objective is NOT to sell out, it's to MAXIMISE REVENUES.

Melnyk would be quite happy to sell one ticket if he could find someone to pay 10 million for that ticket. Conversely, the entire stadium would sell out in a minute if tickets were $1 each. What that strategy is, or what the price is, is different from market to market. But as the post quoted outlines, the top priority is often not to sell out the stadium.

The real story is not that the sens only sell out at the last minute. The real story is that every other team is leaving money on the table because if games are selling out several days out from the game, then the clubs marketing team could have charged more for the tickets. This doesn't mean that Ottawa and Nashville should charge Toronto prices, it means that they should charge as much as they can to maximise revenue. Raising ticket prices by 50% and selling out 95% of the stadium is better that raising tickets by 10% and selling out 100% of the stadium.


But if all that really matters to you is how many people are in the buildings, please go ahead and pull the total or average crowd sizes for the final four teams throughout the playoff and see how Ottawa compares. You will quickly realise that even a 90% attendance in Ottawa is a near sell out in Nashville or Anaheim, and would have been in the old Pittsburg stadium. (Keep in mind Ottawa's stadium is 20+ years old) Heck Nashville hit a record 17400 attendance, and it's still 1000 short of Senators official capacity.

I'll now wait for all the threads about how Anaheim and Nashville are bad NHL cities and bad fanbases because their markets can't support a bigger stadium...but I won't hold my breath.

 

[pepty]

Well one major thing to consider is that Pittsburgh has a NFL and MLB team in addition to the Pens. Ottawa just has the Sens. You could say that Ottawa is a better hockey market, but it certainly isn't a better sports market in general. Being a smaller market city, like Ottawa, it's difficult (when schedule conflicts happen) and expensive to support all 3 teams. Steelers get priority, then the Pens, then the Pirates. The millennial crowd in Pittsburgh loves the Pens, considering that we're now joining the job market and have expendable income to attend games now I don't think you'll ever see a possibility of the Pens relocating again in the future.

Ottawa has a very popular CFL team the RedBlacks and a growing fan base for the Fury soccer team.

The Fury were playing the same night as the Sens last game and siphoned off some fans as it was a Canadian Championship game vs the Toronto FC.

It impacted the crowds for both teams in a negative way.

I dont think the Pens will relocate but neither do I think the Sens will. This is a nothing story about available seats that seems to apply only to the Sens and is largely driven by media fan boys of teams that are no longer in the playoffs.

 

[Canadian Time]

Honestly, reading this thread, and all the amateur analysis by the major media, is pretty comical from a professional marketers perspective. Everyone needs to pay attention to the last paragraph above.

The objective of the sens is not to sell out the arena, it's to maximise revenues.

Let's repeat that. The objective is NOT to sell out, it's to MAXIMISE REVENUES.

Melnyk would be quite happy to sell one ticket if he could find someone to pay 10 million for that ticket. Conversely, the entire stadium would sell out in a minute if tickets were $1 each. What that strategy is, or what the price is, is different from market to market. But as the post quoted outlines, the top priority is often not to sell out the stadium.

The real story is not that the sens only sell out at the last minute. The real story is that every other team is leaving money on the table because if games are selling out several days out from the game, then the clubs marketing team could have charged more for the tickets. This doesn't mean that Ottawa and Nashville should charge Toronto prices, it means that they should charge as much as they can to maximise revenue. Raising ticket prices by 50% and selling out 95% of the stadium is better that raising tickets by 10% and selling out 100% of the stadium.


But if all that really matters to you is how many people are in the buildings, please go ahead and pull the total or average crowd sizes for the final four teams throughout the playoff and see how Ottawa compares. You will quickly realise that even a 90% attendance in Ottawa is a near sell out in Nashville or Anaheim, and would have been in the old Pittsburg stadium. (Keep in mind Ottawa's stadium is 20+ years old) Heck Nashville hit a record 17400 attendance, and it's still 1000 short of Senators official capacity.

I'll now wait for all the threads about how Anaheim and Nashville are bad NHL cities and bad fanbases because their markets can't support a bigger stadium...but I won't hold my breath.

Where ya been bud, well thought out posts like this were needed days ago. Nice one.

 

[Charliebox]

Honestly, reading this thread, and all the amateur analysis by the major media, is pretty comical from a professional marketers perspective. Everyone needs to pay attention to the last paragraph above.

The objective of the sens is not to sell out the arena, it's to maximise revenues.

Let's repeat that. The objective is NOT to sell out, it's to MAXIMISE REVENUES.

Melnyk would be quite happy to sell one ticket if he could find someone to pay 10 million for that ticket. Conversely, the entire stadium would sell out in a minute if tickets were $1 each. What that strategy is, or what the price is, is different from market to market. But as the post quoted outlines, the top priority is often not to sell out the stadium.

The real story is not that the sens only sell out at the last minute. The real story is that every other team is leaving money on the table because if games are selling out several days out from the game, then the clubs marketing team could have charged more for the tickets. This doesn't mean that Ottawa and Nashville should charge Toronto prices, it means that they should charge as much as they can to maximise revenue. Raising ticket prices by 50% and selling out 95% of the stadium is better that raising tickets by 10% and selling out 100% of the stadium.


But if all that really matters to you is how many people are in the buildings, please go ahead and pull the total or average crowd sizes for the final four teams throughout the playoff and see how Ottawa compares. You will quickly realise that even a 90% attendance in Ottawa is a near sell out in Nashville or Anaheim, and would have been in the old Pittsburg stadium. (Keep in mind Ottawa's stadium is 20+ years old) Heck Nashville hit a record 17400 attendance, and it's still 1000 short of Senators official capacity.

I'll now wait for all the threads about how Anaheim and Nashville are bad NHL cities and bad fanbases because their markets can't support a bigger stadium...but I won't hold my breath.

Exactly. This is what I've been saying to anyone who will listen.

If you're in it for purely business purposes, your goal is to charge enough money that the last ticket sells in the last minute before the game starts. That's how you maximize revenue. You make it just expensive enough that the full capacity (19K) of people can afford/be able to/want to attend.

From a purely business perspective, Melynk did a good job because 7 of the 9 games sold out.

I went to the playoffs, often, in the early 2000's and ticket prices were less than half of what they are now. Inflation has not doubled prices in 15 years. The games sold out every time, because Melnyk, at the time, cared more about winning and having a good atmosphere, than making money.

Since then, his businesses have tanked and he's gone through a divorce. Now, he cares about money more than anything; hence, the higher prices and looking to maximize revenue.

As businessman, he's smart. As an owner of a professional sports team, he's a giant ****** bag. Most NHL owners are not like him. These types of tactics are what made Harold Ballard the most hated man in Toronto for a long time.

The thing that bothers me about Melnyk is that he's pretending to be something he's not. Just come out and say you're trying to make money. Don't pretend you care about the fans or the city.

When Melnyk comes out and cries in the media about not selling out two games, it only makes fans want to buy tickets less.. not more. We all know what he is in it for. If he cared about selling out the games, he wouldn't gouge people.

 

[Shwag33]

Honestly, reading this thread, and all the amateur analysis by the major media, is pretty comical from a professional marketers perspective. Everyone needs to pay attention to the last paragraph above.

The objective of the sens is not to sell out the arena, it's to maximise revenues.

Let's repeat that. The objective is NOT to sell out, it's to MAXIMISE REVENUES.

Melnyk would be quite happy to sell one ticket if he could find someone to pay 10 million for that ticket. Conversely, the entire stadium would sell out in a minute if tickets were $1 each. What that strategy is, or what the price is, is different from market to market. But as the post quoted outlines, the top priority is often not to sell out the stadium.

The real story is not that the sens only sell out at the last minute. The real story is that every other team is leaving money on the table because if games are selling out several days out from the game, then the clubs marketing team could have charged more for the tickets. This doesn't mean that Ottawa and Nashville should charge Toronto prices, it means that they should charge as much as they can to maximise revenue. Raising ticket prices by 50% and selling out 95% of the stadium is better that raising tickets by 10% and selling out 100% of the stadium.


But if all that really matters to you is how many people are in the buildings, please go ahead and pull the total or average crowd sizes for the final four teams throughout the playoff and see how Ottawa compares. You will quickly realise that even a 90% attendance in Ottawa is a near sell out in Nashville or Anaheim, and would have been in the old Pittsburg stadium. (Keep in mind Ottawa's stadium is 20+ years old) Heck Nashville hit a record 17400 attendance, and it's still 1000 short of Senators official capacity.

I'll now wait for all the threads about how Anaheim and Nashville are bad NHL cities and bad fanbases because their markets can't support a bigger stadium...but I won't hold my breath.

This is true, but the owner shouldn't cry in the paper about it when they misjudged the price points a little.

 

[Micklebot]

Honestly, reading this thread, and all the amateur analysis by the major media, is pretty comical from a professional marketers perspective. Everyone needs to pay attention to the last paragraph above.

The objective of the sens is not to sell out the arena, it's to maximise revenues.

Let's repeat that. The objective is NOT to sell out, it's to MAXIMISE REVENUES.

Melnyk would be quite happy to sell one ticket if he could find someone to pay 10 million for that ticket. Conversely, the entire stadium would sell out in a minute if tickets were $1 each. What that strategy is, or what the price is, is different from market to market. But as the post quoted outlines, the top priority is often not to sell out the stadium.

The real story is not that the sens only sell out at the last minute. The real story is that every other team is leaving money on the table because if games are selling out several days out from the game, then the clubs marketing team could have charged more for the tickets. This doesn't mean that Ottawa and Nashville should charge Toronto prices, it means that they should charge as much as they can to maximise revenue. Raising ticket prices by 50% and selling out 95% of the stadium is better that raising tickets by 10% and selling out 100% of the stadium.


But if all that really matters to you is how many people are in the buildings, please go ahead and pull the total or average crowd sizes for the final four teams throughout the playoff and see how Ottawa compares. You will quickly realise that even a 90% attendance in Ottawa is a near sell out in Nashville or Anaheim, and would have been in the old Pittsburg stadium. (Keep in mind Ottawa's stadium is 20+ years old) Heck Nashville hit a record 17400 attendance, and it's still 1000 short of Senators official capacity.

I'll now wait for all the threads about how Anaheim and Nashville are bad NHL cities and bad fanbases because their markets can't support a bigger stadium...but I won't hold my breath.

It would be interesting to look at playoff ticket revenue instead of ticket sales. Ottawa has a very small season ticket base compared to many other teams, around 8000 vs teams like Pittsburgh capping season tickets at 15000. This is in part due to regulations preventing gov't from buying or accepting tickets, meaning the cities largest employer can't support the team.

Since Ottawa, and likely many other teams, give discount pricing to season ticket holders for playoff games, this lower season ticket base could juice revenues relative to other teams. It also could suggest that the support from average Joe fan (ie not business' buying up tickets and writing them off at tax time) represents a much higher portion of ticket sales.

 

[jw2]

No one wants to watch the Senators. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. On top of that, they play a system that turns off even hard core fans.

 

[Charliebox]

Since Ottawa, and likely many other teams, give discount pricing to season ticket holders for playoff games, this lower season ticket base could juice revenues relative to other teams. It also could suggest that the support from average Joe fan (ie not business' buying up tickets and writing them off at tax time) represents a much higher portion of ticket sales.

This is exactly right. The Sens CEO was on the radio yesterday talking about this very fact.

It's not corporate money. It's personal, after tax, income.

There is another layer to all of this too. The biggest purchaser in the city is also the government. Many private businesses sell to the gov't.

You're not allowed to wine and dine and gov't employee. In any other major city, you have people from one corporation, taking people from other corporations out to games to sell themselves. Well you're not allowed to do that with the biggest purchaser in the city. This makes it less likely that private companies will bother buying tickets. There is no point for any private company that sells the majority of it's products/services to the gov't to have promotional tickets or suites.

 

[New User Name]

I like that the evil Canadian media is taking shots (opps, not shots, just reporting reality) at a Canadian franchise. Hope those that thought they were being "picked" on can now realize that they were just (like usual) being snotty nosed paranoid fools.

Now, it would be nice if the league was more transparent and released accurate data like revenue sharing etc etc etc.

 

[pepty]

This is exactly right. The Sens CEO was on the radio yesterday talking about this very fact.

It's not corporate money. It's personal, after tax, income.

There is another layer to all of this too. The biggest purchaser in the city is also the government. Many private businesses sell to the gov't.

You're not allowed to wine and dine and gov't employee. In any other major city, you have people from one corporation, taking people from other corporations out to games to sell themselves. Well you're not allowed to do that with the biggest purchaser in the city. This makes it less likely that private companies will bother buying tickets. There is no point for any private company that sells the majority of it's products/services to the gov't to have promotional tickets or suites.

Anselmi said that at least half of the Leaf tickets are sold to corporate groups and so most people dont pay out of pocket for their tickets.

 

[Steazy Doo]

How many Cat Bowsers could fit in that barn? A good thousand small ones at least. (Cat Bowser can split into smaller forms of himself, helps to increase the chances of scratching Cat Mario)

Anyway they'll sell out in the finals

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Anselmi said that at least half of the Leaf tickets are sold to corporate groups and so most people dont pay out of pocket for their tickets.

For this very reason it makes the crowd at the CTC one of the loudest come playoffs.

 

[Ms Maggie]

Honestly, reading this thread, and all the amateur analysis by the major media, is pretty comical from a professional marketers perspective. Everyone needs to pay attention to the last paragraph above.

The objective of the sens is not to sell out the arena, it's to maximise revenues.

Let's repeat that. The objective is NOT to sell out, it's to MAXIMISE REVENUES.

Melnyk would be quite happy to sell one ticket if he could find someone to pay 10 million for that ticket. Conversely, the entire stadium would sell out in a minute if tickets were $1 each. What that strategy is, or what the price is, is different from market to market. But as the post quoted outlines, the top priority is often not to sell out the stadium.

The real story is not that the sens only sell out at the last minute. The real story is that every other team is leaving money on the table because if games are selling out several days out from the game, then the clubs marketing team could have charged more for the tickets. This doesn't mean that Ottawa and Nashville should charge Toronto prices, it means that they should charge as much as they can to maximise revenue. Raising ticket prices by 50% and selling out 95% of the stadium is better that raising tickets by 10% and selling out 100% of the stadium.


But if all that really matters to you is how many people are in the buildings, please go ahead and pull the total or average crowd sizes for the final four teams throughout the playoff and see how Ottawa compares. You will quickly realise that even a 90% attendance in Ottawa is a near sell out in Nashville or Anaheim, and would have been in the old Pittsburg stadium. (Keep in mind Ottawa's stadium is 20+ years old) Heck Nashville hit a record 17400 attendance, and it's still 1000 short of Senators official capacity.

I'll now wait for all the threads about how Anaheim and Nashville are bad NHL cities and bad fanbases because their markets can't support a bigger stadium...but I won't hold my breath.

Your analysis (from one professional marketer to another) assumes that goodwill among the fans is not a factor that management considers. I really doubt that is the case. I agree there is some attempt to maximize revenues with playoff games, but think that is somewhat tempered with the longer term goal of building and maintaining fan loyalty and engagement.

There won't be any empty seats at PPG tonight, and plenty of SRO if history is a guide.

 

[Bileur]

Your analysis (from one professional marketer to another) assumes that goodwill among the fans is not a factor that management considers. I really doubt that is the case. I agree there is some attempt to maximize revenues with playoff games, but think that is somewhat tempered with the longer term goal of building and maintaining fan loyalty and engagement.

There won't be any empty seats at PPG tonight, and plenty of SRO if history is a guide.

I think this part of Dr.Sens(e)'s post suggests goodwill is not given much weight as a factor.

As to the non-sell out, as a season ticket holder, I can tell you this lies firmly on the team. They have consistently tried to use playoff tickets to get fans to sign up for season tickets, and for those on a budget, it just doesn't fly any more. And if they don't sign up, making them pay 2.5 times what others are paying, just rubs people the wrong way (now that they've figured it out). The Sens could have sold out the building 2 times over if they hadn't tried charging $400 for a $200 seat. That's a lot of $'s to expect most fans to pay, especially when they know others paid less than $200.

 

[misha1976]

Well I'd really like to do my part here and go watch a game, but only Ottawa people seem to understand, many of us have had pay issues working for the government. I haven't got paid at all since last September and at the same time, the government is saying they overpaid me by 16K and need to repay them asap.

Relying solely on money from family at this point.

This a thousand times. I have been unable to go to any playoff games because my partner only started getting paid again two weeks after 6 months with no pay. We've had to borrow from family members, even though we're in our late 30s, just to make rent and basic bills. Anyone who thinks this is indicative of me (or the tens of other fans with pay issues) being a fan can well and truly go f $&k themselves. They're either living in their parents basement or are fabulously wealthy.

 

[ColinM]

This a thousand times. I have been unable to go to any playoff games because my partner only started getting paid again two weeks after 6 months with no pay. We've had to borrow from family members, even though we're in our late 30s, just to make rent and basic bills. Anyone who thinks this is indicative of me (or the tens of other fans with pay issues) being a fan can well and truly go f $&k themselves. They're either living in their parents basement or are fabulously wealthy.

Exactly. The city's largest employer messed up their payroll and suddenly the entertainment dollar became more scarce. Who knew?

Having said that I was disappointed in the game 6 attendance and I think Senators management deserves part of the blame. Some of the $800 seats really were beyond the league average price point even for the conference finals. It didn't help that they waited until after game 4 to release the tickets over a long weekend at that.