Arsenal FC Thread

[S E P H]

But then you have the part where everyone’s playing twice a week every single week. And their bench f***ing sucks.

Personally, I would rather play the lads but no use talking about it when Arteta has done the opposite. I still think Emery got too much bashing here considering what he was able to achieve with the likes of Xhaka, Mkhi, Mustafi, and Sokaratis playing majority of the matches.

I would really like to see what they would look like if they had the courage to appoint Nuno.

Nuno is a great coach, but no defensive managers. Arsenal needs elegant football like Montreal needs a French coach; we need Nagelsmann, Blanc, or Pochettino.

 

[Evilo]

Well Saliba doesn't play so you can't really count him since he doesn't make an impact currently.

AWB is far better than Bellerin, Maguire=Gabriel, Telles~= to Tierney. Than you have Lindelof who is waaayy better than Mustafi or Luiz. I mean I don't think GA is the end all be all for what makes a good defense but we had the 3rd least GA last season with a DDG who was woefully out of form.

What?
The FACT that he doesn't play is a travesty.
Disagree on AWB being better than Bellerin but that's arguable, Maguire is closer to Holding than Gabriel, and Tierney is better than Telles. And Saliba is better than Lindelof.

So yeah.

 

[Evilo]

I don't think it's unfair to say:

"Man, they shouldn't have appointed a rookie manager because he doesn't know what he's doing going forward."

"Man, how did their squad get to this point?"



Martinelli just had major knee surgery so I'm not too sure about that one. Their bench CB's would also be horrendous. They also loaned Guendouzi like a bunch of idiots, so even a new manager wouldn't be able to do anything about that this season.

I mean, maybe they have a top six squad? I think it's ridiculous that we're even discussing this considering their wealth. We've also still not seen how bad it could actually get. If Auba or Laca got hurt it feels like they'd never score.

But Douzi's move was all on Arteta, which is my point since the beginning. Same with Saliba. Or Pepe/Willian.

 

[Evilo]

My issue with trying to say they have a top 6 squad, is, honestly, who plays for teams around them consistently if you were to compare rosters? How many of those XI make the squad sheet for City, Liverpool, or even some of the others if everyone is healthy?

I would spot you Auba, but beyond him, is there any bang on starter for another competitor for the top 4? Partey should be at some point, but he just got here. Tierney is good, though injuries, and he's behind Chilwell and Robertson at least. I think both central defenders might be able to make it, but Saliba can't get in the side of a team that bad. Maybe 2 or 3 players get into a side with Spurs/Chelsea, and maybe 4-5 with United. Hell, I think there's an argument to be made that their roster is closer to Wolves and Everton when healthy than it is any of their competitors for the top 4.

Healthy, I think Leicester's midfield walks all over that midfield lineup (at least until Partey shows he's ready for the EPL).

Then we aren't even getting to manager. In the top 6-7, other than Ole (lololol) they have the worst manager. Or at best, least experienced. Even Lampard has more experience.

It's the same argument all the time.
1/ nobody argued Arsenal would challenge for the title, so why bring up City and Pool?
2/ City and Pool's rosters are not as good as you think. Give them Arteta and see if they challenge. Give Arsenal to Guardiola and Klopp and see if they challenge. I can tell you right now Arsenal with Klopp or Guardiola finish higher than Pool or City with Arteta.

 

[Evilo]

I'm an Arsenal fan and that sucks.

Pretty much everyone there save Partey and Gabriel is either an overrated 'name' veteran who was good in 2015 and kinda sucks now or a middling young player struggling to contribute at this level who wouldn't be out of place at West Ham or Newcastle. And Saliba, who is a big prospect but having just turned 19 wouldn't be starting at CB for any team contending for Europe.

Once Partey settles he's the only guy on that roster who would be a regular starter for a top-5/6 team.

Typical.

 

[AB13]

Nuno is a great coach, but no defensive managers. Arsenal needs elegant football like Montreal needs a French coach; we need Nagelsmann, Blanc, or Pochettino.

Marco Rose is ideal if we don't get one of these. He could be close to the next Jurgen Klopp if he reaches his best case scenario.

 

[Chimaera]

It's the same argument all the time.
1/ nobody argued Arsenal would challenge for the title, so why bring up City and Pool?
2/ City and Pool's rosters are not as good as you think. Give them Arteta and see if they challenge. Give Arsenal to Guardiola and Klopp and see if they challenge. I can tell you right now Arsenal with Klopp or Guardiola finish higher than Pool or City with Arteta.

You’re still avoiding the point. They probably don’t have a roster that’s clearly top 6 worthy. I wouldn’t take theirs over Spurs or Chelsea, and I’d think real hard about United and Leicester. So at best they’re the 5th best squad in a race for top 4. Maybe arguably, the 6th or 7th. Coaching matters, and Arteta isn’t making the grade yet, but they also don’t have the players either. Klopp would make a difference. Not sure if he would without any training time and a camp to get fitness where he’d want it. Pep might be able to get more out of some players, but both would want to sell most of them and get new guys. Neither of which is realistic. I just think if the squad was so great, there would be more signs. There’s a lot of potential and some guys who might have done good things elsewhere, but at some point just saying they have great players doesn’t make it show if they can’t do it on the pitch. The manager sets up the team and tactics, but he doesn’t make a player sky a ball into the stands, head butt someone, or commit stupid penalty after stupid penalty.

I would make one caveat to the Arteta sucks argument, he didn’t really get a training camp to speak of this summer, and being a mid season appointment that might have been the time to cement his way of doing things, and could have been important for a new manager. Lots of clubs didn’t get that either, but I want to think that was a big deal for someone who had never run a club before. As much as he’s been meh so far, it’s not all on the manager.

As for the City or Liverpool comment, you can think what you want, but it’s really the only measure of comparison Arsenal should be trying to get to.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

It's the same argument all the time.
1/ nobody argued Arsenal would challenge for the title, so why bring up City and Pool?
2/ City and Pool's rosters are not as good as you think. Give them Arteta and see if they challenge. Give Arsenal to Guardiola and Klopp and see if they challenge. I can tell you right now Arsenal with Klopp or Guardiola finish higher than Pool or City with Arteta.

This is a good point. I would like to see how Liverpool performs under another coach and how a team like Arsenal would perform with Klopp.
Not saying Pool's roster is bad in any way but some players are overachieving due to what has been built there and a big part of that is the coach, not unreasonable to think that with another coach some players would revert back to previous form.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Can someone be the most overrated player in the premier league if they've never played a game in the premier league or are even registered to play a game?

This kid has no chance even before he plays a game because the expectations I see for him are way too high. People are already saying he's better than proven top 6 defenders are crazy.

 

[maclean]

This is a good point. I would like to see how Liverpool performs under another coach and how a team like Arsenal would perform with Klopp.
Not saying Pool's roster is bad in any way but some players are overachieving due to what has been built there and a big part of that is the coach, not unreasonable to think that with another coach some players would revert back to previous form.

Yes, this needs to happen.

FOR SCIENCE.

 

[AB13]

Coaching might be more important than personnel in top level football, some of you guys need to understand that. Goals like these happen mainly because of coaching, not individual brilliance. This goal is scored due to overloading central areas to create passing combinations with players in between the lines, while players are being allowed to move freely off the ball. Look at the speed of passing and movement and compare that to what we have seen under Arteta and Emery. This is all coached.

Coaching is the reason behind goals like these. We won't score these anymore because Arteta wants strict positional play as mentioned many times ( even by his own players). He relies on attacking through the wings instead of centrally as well, and you won't score goals like that even with the best players in he world. Playing players in between the lines and getting the team to move freely will lead to goals like these scored regardless of personnel.

City or Bayern would maybe score less under a restrictive manager like Arteta or Pulis than for instance West Brom would under Guardiola, Wenger or Bielsa.

 

[koyvoo]

Why would any team spend money on top quality players now that we know the secret is only having a great coach. Pep, for example has won just as much with really good teams as he did with the best club side of all time. He’s had the same level of success. The players make no difference.

 

[AB13]

Why would any team spend money on top quality players now that we know the secret is only having a great coach. Pep, for example has won just as much with really good teams as he did with the best club side of all time. He’s had the same level of success. The players make no difference.

Coaching is more of a destroyer than an enhancer though. As long as you do the basic things offensively, players can express their talent to some extent. Better players will perform noticeably better. But Arteta does not understand that you need players between the lines, fluidity, no strict positioning and movement. Without doing these basic things, no player can perform. This passing is obviously rehearsed and forced on to the players by the coach. Would any players in the world score goals having to pass like this? Genuinely? It is a shocking, destructive tactical setup, Lewandowski would not score 15 goals in a season in this system.

 

[koyvoo]

What about Bielsa? What’s holding him back, his systems and tactics, or the quality of the players he has employing those systems and tactics?

 

[hatterson]

Why would any team spend money on top quality players now that we know the secret is only having a great coach. Pep, for example has won just as much with really good teams as he did with the best club side of all time. He’s had the same level of success. The players make no difference.

I really can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not.

 

[robertmac43]

Brighton was one of if not the worse team in the Prem at turning passes into shots last year... So far Arteta is taking the trophy home.

 

[AB13]

What about Bielsa? What’s holding him back, his systems and tactics, or the quality of the players he has employing those systems and tactics?

The players, who make a huge difference too, something I never disagreed with. Players are hugely important too. Bielsa`s system is the only reason a squad of mid table Championship quality is looking like a dangerous Premier League team though. His system is among the best in the world, which is why Leeds are even in the top flight.

Also, read my post again. What I said is that with extreme offensive restrictions on what the coach allows the players to do, no team will ever be effective. If you or me coached Arsenal and went out there and said " go out there and have fun lads" before every game they would score more goals than in a system that prohibits them from trying to attack in a natural way.

 

[YNWA14]

I really can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not.

It is.

Comparing Arsenal and Liverpool or City’s rosters is certainly something. Arsenal don’t have a proven manager but they have proven players that haven’t been successful under multiple managers now (in the PL). Their squad is average and far from a clear cut top 6 squad. Though I suppose every team in front of Arsenal the last few years has had a vastly superior manager (they’ve never been successful elsewhere or finished in the top 4 of a league, or won any trophies).

 

[The Abusement Park]

What?
The FACT that he doesn't play is a travesty.
Disagree on AWB being better than Bellerin but that's arguable, Maguire is closer to Holding than Gabriel, and Tierney is better than Telles. And Saliba is better than Lindelof.

So yeah.

Correct the fact that Saliba doesn’t play is a travesty. But he isn’t playing so he has no impact on what makes a better defense at the moment. Also maguire is way better than Holding, I mean he’s slower and I know the cool thing to do is to shit on Maguire but he isn’t horrible. As for AWB he’s miles better defensively than AWB where Bellerin is better offensively but he’s still not great at anything.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I find it interesting that people are harping on Arteta for not being Pep/Klopp. He's a rookie manager with barely any experience. What did you think would happen? lol

What about Bielsa? What’s holding him back, his systems and tactics, or the quality of the players he has employing those systems and tactics?

Bielsa has a short shelf life because he's crazy. No way can he handle a team wanting to compete with all those personalities in the dressing room.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

What?
The FACT that he doesn't play is a travesty.
Disagree on AWB being better than Bellerin but that's arguable, Maguire is closer to Holding than Gabriel, and Tierney is better than Telles. And Saliba is better than Lindelof.

So yeah.

Disagree with everything here apart from the Maguire comparison. Tierney better than Telles? Come on, lol.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

This is a good point. I would like to see how Liverpool performs under another coach and how a team like Arsenal would perform with Klopp.
Not saying Pool's roster is bad in any way but some players are overachieving due to what has been built there and a big part of that is the coach, not unreasonable to think that with another coach some players would revert back to previous form.

Klopp did get players he wanted over the years. It's not like when he joined the team suddenly started dominating.

Every coach need some players to fill their scheme and formation.

 

[East Coast Bias]

This is similar to the Ole argument. You can believe a squad needs to improve and also believe a manager isn’t good enough.

People tend to gravitate towards just saying a roster isn’t good enough anyway but it shouldn’t be looked at as a pass for a manager. 1- Is the manager getting the best out of his team? 2- And is this manager the one that could challenge for the league if we upgraded the roster entirely?

there’s no reason to keep going and letting a manager sign players that fit his style if your answer to the 2nd question is no. Doesn’t really matter if your roster is the 4th or 7th most talented one in the league.

I still think it’s early for Arteta, and the last year has been f***ed in general so it’s harsh.

 

[Evilo]

Can someone be the most overrated player in the premier league if they've never played a game in the premier league or are even registered to play a game?

This kid has no chance even before he plays a game because the expectations I see for him are way too high. People are already saying he's better than proven top 6 defenders are crazy.

Yeah I mean Messi would fail miserably too.

Tremendous logic.

 

[Evilo]

Why would any team spend money on top quality players now that we know the secret is only having a great coach. Pep, for example has won just as much with really good teams as he did with the best club side of all time. He’s had the same level of success. The players make no difference.

Totally what has been said.
Tremendous quality post.