Around the NHL XLI: Let Us Never Again Speak of Last Season

[NickyFotiu]

Sure, but when is the last time Crosby said anything negative about one of his team Canada teammates?

I don't think he'd do that.

It's like when Dubinsky said playing in Columbus is better than playing at the Garden. Have I ever played in Nationwide arena? No. Do I think it's better than playing at MSG? **** no. Do I expect Dubinsky, a member of the Blue Jackets, to say Nationwide isn't the best arena in the NHL? No.

Anyway, I'm more than thrilled to stop this conversation. I'm going out in a few minutes anyway.

Thanks for always keeping it civil, NF, that much I really do appreciate

(yes, LarryMcDavid, this is a 'subtweet' directed at you)

Thank you. Enjoy your day. I really should go out in the real world myself in a little while. Too much computer.

 

[TheGuarantee]

Sure, but when is the last time Crosby said anything negative about one of his team Canada teammates?

I don't think he'd do that.

It's like when Dubinsky said playing in Columbus is better than playing at the Garden. Have I ever played in Nationwide arena? No. Do I think it's better than playing at MSG? **** no. Do I expect Dubinsky, a member of the Blue Jackets, to say Nationwide isn't the best arena in the NHL? No.

Anyway, I'm more than thrilled to stop this conversation. I'm going out in a few minutes anyway.

Thanks for always keeping it civil, NF, that much I really do appreciate

(yes, LarryMcDavid, this is a 'subtweet' directed at you)

Thanks for the shoutout, I'm glad to be apart of the 25,000 posts, maybe you shouldn't take everything so seriously on the Internet

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Our final offseason disscusion. Twas a good one Silverfish.

 

[Tawnos]

Here's an extreme posit:

No team has ever won the Cup without strong intangibles players on the team.

 

[Tawnos]

If you ripped the C off of Toews's chest and put it on Kane or Keith or Seabrook or Hossa, how many less cups would the Hawks have?

Heh, good timing on this article: http://www.storiesnumberstell.com/leadership/

I didn't read the whole thing, but the conclusion seems to be that leadership matters. Don't think anyone has been disputing that. But until we can get a measurable effect, well, I'm skeptical.

Are the only real leaders in the NHL currently Toews, Crosby, and Dustin Brown?

You seemed to have missed a central point of my post, which is that the letter doesn't make someone a leader. If you removed the letter from Toews, he's still the same guy, which means he's still going to provide leadership. Messier is at least as good of a l leader as Gretzky, but it was Gretzky who wore the C. Messier still led on that team, in a more purposeful way. Gretz was a leader, in the sense that his play inspired others around him, but it was more of a byproduct than an intention.

So my answer to your question is: they'd have the same number. The letter doesn't bestow abilities. Ideally it's given to someone who already has them.

I don't think this is all that rare of an ability, by the way. I wouldn't be surprised to see there were 60 great leaders in the league. The difference is that some have been in the right situation, on the right team, to have the opportunity to prove how good of a leader they are. Most have not.

 

[Machinehead]

Toews is an excellent player, but to me, he's always been the third best player on his own team.

 

[Cassano]

Toews is an excellent player, but to me, he's always been the third best player on his own team.

Up until Kane's monster season, imo he's been 2nd behind Keith.

 

[Machinehead]

Up until Kane's monster season, imo he's been 2nd behind Keith.

That's fair enough. The main thing for me is, there's no way he's better than Keith. Keith is a top 15 D all-time.

You can't say the same for Toews at center. And although he's much younger, do we really see him getting there? I mean there's 3 or 4 inarguably better centers than Toews playing NOW. Crosby, Malkin, McDavid right off the top of my head.

Again, can't say the same for Keith on defense. I don't think there's any D playing now that you can say as a matter of FACT are better than Keith.

 

[Tawnos]

That's fair enough. The main thing for me is, there's no way he's better than Keith. Keith is a top 15 D all-time.

You can't say the same for Toews at center. And although he's much younger, do we really see him getting there? I mean there's 3 or 4 inarguably better centers than Toews playing NOW. Crosby, Malkin, McDavid right off the top of my head.

Again, can't say the same for Keith on defense. I don't think there's any D playing now that you can say as a matter of FACT are better than Keith.

I don't know if I've ever seen you say something more out there, to me, than claiming Keith is a top 15 D all-time. He doesn't even make the top 15 of the off-the-top-of-my-head list of guys I think were better than Keith

Which is (in no particular order, just as they came to me)

Bobby Orr, Brad Park, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway (who, IMO, is the most underrated D ever despite his two Norris), Ray Bourque, Niklas Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Doug Harvey, Eddie Shore, King Clancy, Denis Potvin, Scott Niedermayer, Al MacInnis, Red Kelly, Scott Stevens

And Slava Fetisov, but I wasn't sure about non-NHLers.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

That's fair enough. The main thing for me is, there's no way he's better than Keith. Keith is a top 15 D all-time.

You can't say the same for Toews at center. And although he's much younger, do we really see him getting there? I mean there's 3 or 4 inarguably better centers than Toews playing NOW. Crosby, Malkin, McDavid right off the top of my head.

Again, can't say the same for Keith on defense. I don't think there's any D playing now that you can say as a matter of FACT are better than Keith.

The ****?!?

 

[darko]

I don't know if I've ever seen you say something more out there, to me, than claiming Keith is a top 15 D all-time. He doesn't even make the top 15 of the off-the-top-of-my-head list of guys I think were better than Keith

Which is (in no particular order, just as they came to me)

Bobby Orr, Brad Park, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway (who, IMO, is the most underrated D ever despite his two Norris), Ray Bourque, Niklas Lidstrom, Chris Chelios, Doug Harvey, Eddie Shore, King Clancy, Denis Potvin, Scott Niedermayer, Al MacInnis, Red Kelly, Scott Stevens

And Slava Fetisov, but I wasn't sure about non-NHLers.

Leetch, Potvin and Pronger are 3 i can think of that you missed.

 

[Tawnos]

Leetch, Potvin and Pronger are 3 i can think of that you missed.

Well, Potvin is on the list, but yes. I think Keith has a strong case for top-25. Top-15? No.

Paul Coffey is another big name there, but he's also pretty controversial. If you're curious, this was the History Board's top-30 as of 2012.

Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

Rank | No. | Player | Height | Weight | Born | Died | Career | Nationality
1|4| Bobby Orr |6'0"|199|1948||1966-1979|Canada
2|2| Doug Harvey |5'11"|190|1924|1989|1947-1969|Canada
3|77| Raymond Bourque |6'0"|219|1960||1979-2001|Canada
4|2| Eddie Shore |5'11"|194|1902|1985|1924-1944|Canada
5|5| Nicklas Lidström |6'2"|190|1970||1991-Present|Sweden
6|5| Denis Potvin |6'0"|205|1953||1973-1988|Canada
7|4| Leonard "Red" Kelly |6'0"|195|1927||1947-1967|Canada
8|2| Viacheslav Fetisov |6'1"|215|1958||1974-1998|Russia
9|19| Larry Robinson |6'3"|220|1951||1972-1992|Canada
10|24| Chris Chelios |6'1"|190|1962||1983-2010|USA
11|22| Brad Park |6'0"|190|1948||1968-1985|Canada
12|7| Francis "King" Clancy |5'7"|155|1903|1986|1921-1937|Canada
13|7| Paul Coffey |6'0"|200|1961||1980-2001|Canada
14|3| Pierre Pilote |5'10"|178|1931||1955-1969|Canada
15|2| Sprague Cleghorn |5'10"|190|1890|1956|1910-1928|Canada
16|17| Earl Seibert |6'2'|198|1911|1990|1931-1946|Canada
17|7| Tim Horton |5'10'|180|1930|1974|1949-1974|Canada
18|2| Al MacInnis |6'2"|204|1963||1981-2004|Canada
19|4| Scott Stevens |6'2"|215|1964||1982-2004|Canada
20|44| Chris Pronger |6'6'|220|1974||1994-Present|Canada
21|4| Bill Gadsby |6'0'|180|1927||1946-1966|Canada
22|21| Börje Salming |6'1"|193|1951||1970-1993|Sweden
23|2| Brian Leetch |6'0"|185|1968||1987-2006|USA
24|5| Aubrey "Dit" Clapper |6'2"|195|1907|1978|1927-1947|Canada
25|6| Valeri Vasiliev |5'11"|187|1949||1966-1984|Russia
26-T|2| Mark Howe |5'11"|185|1955||1973-1995|USA
26-T|11| Bill Quackenbush |5'11"|190|1922|1999|1942-1956|Canada
28|18| Serge Savard |6'3"|210|1946||1966-1983|Canada
29|5| Rod Langway |6'3"|218|1957||1977-1993|USA
30|8| Eddie Gerard |5'9"|168|1890|1937|1913-1923|Canada

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1029907

 

[RangerBlues]

Trouba tells Winnipeg to get stuffed.

 

[darko]

Well, Potvin is on the list, but yes. I think Keith has a strong case for top-25. Top-15? No.

My bad.

Chara is another one that's in the conversation.

 

[Machinehead]

Keith is one of 13 defensemen in history with multiple Norris trophies.

He's one of 9 defensemen with a Conn Smythe.

He's one of 6 defensemen with multiple Stanley Cups and multiple Gold Medals.

He's a borderline generational talent.

The fact that Pronger and Chara are in the conversation but Keith isn't is just HF at it's finest.

Pronger you could make a case for I suppose because of his Hart. There's just no way anywhere on planet Earth that Chara is better than Keith.

There's no ****ing way Stevens is better either. Stevens was never at any point in his career the best defenseman in the league, as evidenced by his empty shelf of Norris trophies. Not even close either. MacInnis was much better, Bourque was much better, Leetch was much better, Lidstrom was much better.

 

[BBKers]

Well, Potvin is on the list, but yes. I think Keith has a strong case for top-25. Top-15? No.

Paul Coffey is another big name there, but he's also pretty controversial. If you're curious, this was the History Board's top-30 as of 2012.

Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time

Rank | No. | Player | Height | Weight | Born | Died | Career | Nationality
1|4| Bobby Orr |6'0"|199|1948||1966-1979|Canada
2|2| Doug Harvey |5'11"|190|1924|1989|1947-1969|Canada
3|77| Raymond Bourque |6'0"|219|1960||1979-2001|Canada
4|2| Eddie Shore |5'11"|194|1902|1985|1924-1944|Canada
5|5| Nicklas Lidström |6'2"|190|1970||1991-Present|Sweden
6|5| Denis Potvin |6'0"|205|1953||1973-1988|Canada
7|4| Leonard "Red" Kelly |6'0"|195|1927||1947-1967|Canada
8|2| Viacheslav Fetisov |6'1"|215|1958||1974-1998|Russia
9|19| Larry Robinson |6'3"|220|1951||1972-1992|Canada
10|24| Chris Chelios |6'1"|190|1962||1983-2010|USA
11|22| Brad Park |6'0"|190|1948||1968-1985|Canada
12|7| Francis "King" Clancy |5'7"|155|1903|1986|1921-1937|Canada
13|7| Paul Coffey |6'0"|200|1961||1980-2001|Canada
14|3| Pierre Pilote |5'10"|178|1931||1955-1969|Canada
15|2| Sprague Cleghorn |5'10"|190|1890|1956|1910-1928|Canada
16|17| Earl Seibert |6'2'|198|1911|1990|1931-1946|Canada
17|7| Tim Horton |5'10'|180|1930|1974|1949-1974|Canada
18|2| Al MacInnis |6'2"|204|1963||1981-2004|Canada
19|4| Scott Stevens |6'2"|215|1964||1982-2004|Canada
20|44| Chris Pronger |6'6'|220|1974||1994-Present|Canada
21|4| Bill Gadsby |6'0'|180|1927||1946-1966|Canada
22|21| Börje Salming |6'1"|193|1951||1970-1993|Sweden
23|2| Brian Leetch |6'0"|185|1968||1987-2006|USA
24|5| Aubrey "Dit" Clapper |6'2"|195|1907|1978|1927-1947|Canada
25|6| Valeri Vasiliev |5'11"|187|1949||1966-1984|Russia
26-T|2| Mark Howe |5'11"|185|1955||1973-1995|USA
26-T|11| Bill Quackenbush |5'11"|190|1922|1999|1942-1956|Canada
28|18| Serge Savard |6'3"|210|1946||1966-1983|Canada
29|5| Rod Langway |6'3"|218|1957||1977-1993|USA
30|8| Eddie Gerard |5'9"|168|1890|1937|1913-1923|Canada

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1029907

Thanks for presenting this list. My immediate reaction is that the pro Canadian bias presented here (stretching back to old guys in a six team league) is a bit nauseating. But that is just me...

 

[aufheben]

Quackenbush lirl

 

[haohmaru]

There's no ****ing way Stevens is better either. Stevens was never at any point in his career the best defenseman in the league, as evidenced by his empty shelf of Norris trophies. Not even close either. MacInnis was much better, Bourque was much better, Leetch was much better, Lidstrom was much better.

The Devils wouldn't have won a single Cup without Stevens. He's in the conversation with all these guys. To say he's "not close either" is just patently false. The guy went to 15 all star games and won the Conn Smythe.

 

[haohmaru]

That's fair enough. The main thing for me is, there's no way he's better than Keith. Keith is a top 15 D all-time.

You can't say the same for Toews at center. And although he's much younger, do we really see him getting there? I mean there's 3 or 4 inarguably better centers than Toews playing NOW. Crosby, Malkin, McDavid right off the top of my head.

Again, can't say the same for Keith on defense. I don't think there's any D playing now that you can say as a matter of FACT are better than Keith.

Malkin? There's no way in hell I take Malkin > Toews. Toews is so much better in his own end, on draws, and defensively.

McDavid is very talented - too early to put him ahead of JT after one season. I'd say there are some comparables at 1C - Kopitar, Sequin, Tavares, Giroux, Tavares.

Crosby for sure, but here's the funny thing about that. Who played last night against Russia's biggest threat (Ovechkin)? JT or SC?

Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl 9h9 hours ago Washington, DC
Ovi had 18 EV shifts; Vlasic and Weber out for all or part of 13, Doughty and Bouwmeester for all or part of 6, Toews for all or part of 16.

Some others thoughts FYI:

http://www.si.com/nhl/photo/2016/08/15/nhl-best-centers-rankings-sidney-crosby-jonathan-toews

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/and-no...-25-nhl-centers-in-2015-16-205732570-nhl.html

http://nesn.com/2015/09/2015-16-nhl-top-10-center-rankings-sidney-crosby-still-no-1/

 

[Tawnos]

Keith is one of 13 defensemen in history with multiple Norris trophies.

He's one of 9 defensemen with a Conn Smythe.

He's one of 6 defensemen with multiple Stanley Cups and multiple Gold Medals.

He's a borderline generational talent.

The fact that Pronger and Chara are in the conversation but Keith isn't is just HF at it's finest.

Pronger you could make a case for I suppose because of his Hart. There's just no way anywhere on planet Earth that Chara is better than Keith.

There's no ****ing way Stevens is better either. Stevens was never at any point in his career the best defenseman in the league, as evidenced by his empty shelf of Norris trophies. Not even close either. MacInnis was much better, Bourque was much better, Leetch was much better, Lidstrom was much better.

Scott Stevens happened to play in the best generation of defensemen the league has ever seen. His lack of Norris Trophies is for no other reason. Do we say Brad Park isn't a top all time D, possibly top 10 just because he played in the era with Bobby Orr?

Being the best defenseman in the league isn't a good criteria to determine where you fit all time, because it depends entirely on the other players. There are 6 defensemen in the HoH top 25 who were born from 1960-1969. 25% of a list that spans 9 decades came from 1. That one of those 6 didn't win a Norris isn't really all that surprising. Especially when one of those guys is a consensus top-3. He finished top 5 in Norris voting 7 times. That's more than Leetch or MacInnis.

Notice that I didn't list Zdeno Chara and HoH didn't put him in the top 30. I still rattled off 16 D without pause, including Fetisov. Pronger has a stronger argument, but I think he's more 20-30, which is where I probably put Keith too.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Now Toews is better than Malkin

Jeebus

Look, Toews is very good, but he's not Mark Messier.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Malkin had the same amount of points as Toews last year...in 23 less games. He kept Pittsburgh going while Crosby had that awful slump.

It's really tough to guage how Toews will perform this year. Chicago has basically been stripped to the bare bones because of salary cap issues. They really need Nick Schmaltz to make a big impact to offset losing Teuvo. Making the Ladd trade didn't help, and another shorter offseason and more mileage on Toews can't help that much either.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Scott Stevens was so good.. I know he was really good because I literally hated the guy. He came in to the NHL as a 20 goal guy but ended up dominating games with his physicality and defense. I think Leetch and Langway both should be higher on that list while big Mac should drop. Keith has been very good but I do not think of him in the top 25.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

My bad.

Chara is another one that's in the conversation.

Niedermeyer, dead!

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I think we have to go after Trouba even if it means a slight over payment. They aren't going to take Staal, it would have to look like Skjei + Hayes or MZA + McIlrath for Trouba + one one their more affordable Cs like Burm or Mattias or if Lowry projects well.