Around the NHL XLI: Let Us Never Again Speak of Last Season

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Honestly the true question for Silverfish is. Is Miller the next Toews?

 

[silverfish]

Honestly the true question for Silverfish is. Is Miller the next Toews?

This would be incredible for the Rangers.

But no, no he is not

 

[haohmaru]

Is it Canada just being dominant, or is it Toews carrying Canada?

Is Toews helping Canada be dominant? Absolutely. If you took Toews off of Canada and put Giroux in every game, how much would they lose then? Would they not have made it out of the group stage?

If you put Toews on CZE, would they have made it out?

If you put Toews on USA, would they have made it out?

I'm not convinced.

CZE would've been better. USA would've been better. Won? Depends on what year/competition we're talking about. Messier in his prime couldn't have elevated this year's USA World Cup out of the preliminary rounds.

Teams have, what, 18 + 1 on the bench/ice? It's hard to measure the contributions of each in every facet of the game and figure out what the total value of one player is statistically and intangibly.

And, if anything, I think trying to figure that out on a team of Canadian All Stars is even more complicated and probably less impactful than on a regular NHL team. I think international play is far less important in this role to the individual because there are usually multiple leadership positions filled (Crosby, Toews, Getlaf, etc...) by very capable players.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Whoever can track and record Intangibles will be know as one of the most important advanced stat creators of all time. It'll be a game changing breakthrough.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's the same thing.

You're saying on the one hand: Team Canada coaches and players know more than us. In that same sense, should the same logic be applied to AV playing Tanner Glass? He just knows more than us so obviously it's the right move?

I wish I could show statistically how Jed Ortmeyer and Jon Toews compare on the "intangible" level, but I cannot.

I don't think you actually believe that I think Ortmeyer and Toews are comparable in terms of skill. But in terms of "bringing it 100% every night", my eye-test tells me they're comparable.

I totally knew what you were trying to say but its not even close to being the same thing. Its a amateurish stretch at best. I have played, reffed, and coached hockey for almost 40 years yet I know AV knows 20 times more about hockey than I. That does not mean every decision AV makes will be well liked or correct or that every point of view a fan has will be wrong. It just means that the professional coaches and players are in the pros for a reason. Their knowledge and experience puts them in a position to be right much more often than we would be in as spectators. If Crosby plays 50-100 games with and against Toews is it possible that he knows a little more about Toews as a player than you do? Even the best coaches will have some decisions that go wrong. Bill Belicheck made some decisions that went bad as the coach of the Cleveland Browns. He was fired from his first head coaching job. That does not mean that he is not one of if not the best head coaching minds ever in the game of football. If most posters from this board were to try to coach NHL pros in a game or practice how long do you think it would take them to realize they are a total amateur?

 

[haohmaru]

A hypothesis is exactly that.

I don't have enough information. Here is what I think about this problem. I will now test my hypothesis.

We don't have the means to identify what is right or wrong here, but I can still say that I believe that intangibles are overpaid for and overrated. I can be wrong, or I can be right. It's just my hypothesis, and it will (or may never) be disproven or proven when we get to that point that we can either prove or disprove it.

"a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation."

What's the explanation/supposition for your belief? That's what's missing from your hypothesis.

A hypothesis would be "I believe leadership is overrated and overpaid for because XYZ team won without good leadership".

 

[silverfish]

CZE would've been better. USA would've been better. Won? Depends on what year/competition we're talking about. Messier in his prime couldn't have elevated this year's USA World Cup out of the preliminary rounds.

Teams have, what, 18 + 1 on the bench/ice? It's hard to measure the contributions of each in every facet of the game and figure out what the total value of one player is statistically and intangibly.

And, if anything, I think trying to figure that out on a team of Canadian All Stars is even more complicated and probably less impactful than on a regular NHL team. I think international play is far less important in this role to the individual because there are usually multiple leadership positions filled (Crosby, Toews, Getlaf, etc...) by very capable players.

Exactly! We can praise Toews as having a great tournament, but we cannot then project his great tournament as the sole reason that Canada is dominating the field.

I totally knew what you were trying to say but its not even close to being the same thing. Its a amateurish stretch at best. I have played, reffed, and coached hockey for almost 40 years yet I know AV knows 20 times more about hockey than I. That does not mean every decision AV makes will be well liked or correct or that every point of view a fan has will be wrong. It just means that the professional coaches and players are in the pros for a reason. Their knowledge and experience puts them in a position to be right much more often than we would be in as spectators. If Crosby plays 50-100 games with and against Toews is it possible that he knows a little more about Toews as a player than you do? Even the best coaches will have some decisions that go wrong. Bill Belicheck made some decisions that went bad as the coach of the Cleveland Browns. He was fired from his first head coaching job. That does not mean that he is not one of if not the best head coaching minds ever in the game of football. If most posters from this board were to try to coach NHL pros in a game or practice how long do you think it would take them to realize they are a total amateur?

Okay, exactly. Coaches can be right, and the fans can think they are wrong.

IN THIS INSTANCE, I believe that the professionals are wrong about Toews being the largest factor in Canada's successes in international hockey as of late. I believe there are many factors that are contributing to team Canada's success that go far beyond the intangibles that Toews is bringing. I also believe that if Toews was not on team Canada, they would still be experiencing the level of success they have thus far experienced at the World Cup.

Canada is, by far and away, the best hockey nation in the world. Their skill is unmatched. That is why I believe they dominate the world stage. Not because Toews is out there giving 100% against Team Europe.

I personally believe it is unfair to play both sides of the coin. I think it is unfair to make the hypothetical argument:

"Playing Girardi tonight is obviously the right decision because AV thinks it's right, so obviously I'm right because AV agrees with me."

and then turning around and saying:

"Why is AV playing Glass! What an idiot".

Essentially my issue is such: If the basis of your opinion is seemingly made fact because an expert agrees with you, then you can never play the other side of the coin, as such will void your previous arguments. You can never again disagree with what a coach does, or what a player says about another player.

"a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation."

What's the explanation/supposition for your belief? That's what's missing from your hypothesis.

A hypothesis would be "I believe leadership is overrated and overpaid for because XYZ team won without good leadership".

I believe leadership is overrated and overpaid for because Jonathan Toews has an AAV of $10.5m

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Toews has that contact becomes of his personal trophies and 3 time Stanley cups. Along with being Chicago's best center. They really had no choice but to pay him that money. Or else Winnipeg would of paid him like 15 Per.

 

[haohmaru]

i believe leadership is overrated and overpaid for because jonathan toews has an aav of $10.5m

You're doing it wrong

The effect of this is distinctively lessened because I can't use all caps.

 

[TheGuarantee]

The tournament where Toews had 1 goal in 7 games and was on the ice when Parise tied the game late?

Yes and when did he score the 1 goal? The tournament where he also won forward of the tournament. I honestly don't really understand this post? It's as if you just saw he had one goal and that's your argument?

 

[silverfish]

Toews has that contact becomes of his personal trophies and 3 time Stanley cups. Along with being Chicago's best center. They really had no choice but to pay him that money. Or else Winnipeg would of paid him like 15 Per.

Boy would that have been a poor decision by Winnipeg.

There's no player in the NHL worth that much money.

Yes and when did he score the 1 goal? The tournament where he also won forward of the tournament. I honestly don't really understand this post? It's as if you just saw he had one goal and that's your argument?

Seems like poor voting to me.

Just like most NHL awards.

EDIT -

I think we should spare the rest of the board on this one. I'm not necessarily trying to convince y'all that Toews is overrated. I'm just providing some evidence as to why I personally believe that. You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you. Let's move on?

How about that Matt Murray injury? Tough loss for the Pens. Opportunity for MAF to reinstate himself as the #1 in Pittsburgh.

 

[TheGuarantee]

Seems like poor voting to me.

Just like most NHL awards.

Ha I mean did you even watch that Olympics? Someone said it best earlier in the thread, Toews completely shut down Kane, while having the 2nd most points in the Olympics next to Pavol Demitra's 10. But he only had 1 goal - that occurred in the gold medal game - I don't really understand your argument here.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I personally believe it is unfair to play both sides of the coin. I think it is unfair to make the hypothetical argument:

"Playing Girardi tonight is obviously the right decision because AV thinks it's right, so obviously I'm right because AV agrees with me."

and then turning around and saying:

"Why is AV playing Glass! What an idiot".

Essentially my issue is such: If the basis of your opinion is seemingly made fact because an expert agrees with you, then you can never play the other side of the coin, as such will void your previous arguments. You can never again disagree with what a coach does, or what a player says about another player.

When I disagree with a decision that AV makes it is very unlikely I would call him an idiot. There have been a couple of coaches I really dislike but I do not have delusions of grandeur. I still realize they know 20 times more than I do. While I may disagree with their decision I know they probably have some logic behind their decision even in the times it turns out to be a mistake. Some calls are very tough calls. Nobody is playing Tanner Glass over Crosby on a first line. The reason some coaches play Glass as a part time fourth line player is tactical for his physicality. AV does not go in to a game thinking I really need Glass to play today because Hayes is not scoring. When decisions are close calls they might be 50-50 decisions that could go either way. They are rarely decisions like I'm going to bench Bobby Orr to put in Marek Malik. For every bad decision that AV makes that backfires he probably makes 50 decisions that go the right way. The main problem I have with coaches is when a decision is not fully based in logic. When I feel that personal reasons are involved. That could be a coach likes one player or dislikes another player. It also could be about the coach's ego. Or sometimes a power struggle between a coach and a GM. Still those cases are pretty rare for most coaches. 9.5 times out of 10 the coaches will make the right call. You may not agree but the reality is that the worst NHL coach knows a lot more about this game than we do as spectators. I have played with and against some NHL players. Some of the guys we think of as meatheads now were actually pretty good players in lower levels. I'm a huge Dylan fan but I do understand that Dylan had some good and bad times. I do understand why a coach might lean towards experience over inexperience. My ego is not at a place that I'm ever going to think I know more about Toews as a player than a Sidney Crosby. Crosby plays against the guy. I have not.

 

[silverfish]

Ha I mean did you even watch that Olympics? Someone said it best earlier in the thread, Toews completely shut down Kane, while having the 2nd most points in the Olympics next to Pavol Demitra's 10. But he only had 1 goal - that occurred in the gold medal game - I don't really understand your argument here.

Do you have the TOI splits from that game? I'd like to see the matchup stats between Kane and Toews. Kane had two assists in that game. And if Toews was matched up against Kane "shutting him down", means he was on the ice for both USA goals in the gold medal game.

And you're wrong. Toews tied for third in the tournament in point total with Rafalski and Parise (who each played one less game). Hossa was 2nd behind Demitra.

And for the record, I watched every game of that Olympics, but I trust the stats a lot more than my memory of something that occurred 6 years ago.

 

[silverfish]

When I disagree with a decision that AV makes it is very unlikely I would call him an idiot. There have been a couple of coaches I really dislike but I do not have delusions of grandeur. I still realize they know 20 times more than I do. While I may disagree with their decision I know they probably have some logic behind their decision even in the times it turns out to be a mistake. Some calls are very tough calls. Nobody is playing Tanner Glass over Crosby on a first line. The reason some coaches play Glass as a part time fourth line player is tactical for his physicality. AV does not go in to a game thinking I really need Glass to play today because Hayes is not scoring. When decisions are close calls they might be 50-50 decisions that could go either way. They are rarely decisions like I'm going to bench Bobby Orr to put in Marek Malik. For every bad decision that AV makes that backfires he probably makes 50 decisions that go the right way. The main problem I have with coaches is when a decision is not fully based in logic. When I feel that personal reasons are involved. That could be a coach likes one player or dislikes another player. It also could be about the coach's ego. Or sometimes a power struggle between a coach and a GM. Still those cases are pretty rare for most coaches. 9.5 times out of 10 the coaches will make the right call. You may not agree but the reality is that the worst NHL coach knows a lot more about this game than we do as spectators. I have played with and against some NHL players. Some of the guys we think of as meatheads now were actually pretty good players in lower levels. I'm a huge Dylan fan but I do understand that Dylan had some good and bad times. I do understand why a coach might lean towards experience over inexperience. My ego is not at a place that I'm ever going to think I know more about Toews as a player than a Sidney Crosby. Crosby plays against the guy. I have not.

I think I'm not communicating well the point I'm trying to make.

You seem to agree that it's okay for the fans to disagree with coaching decisions and opinions. I just happen to disagree with this one.

 

[TheGuarantee]

Do you have the TOI splits from that game? I'd like to see the matchup stats between Kane and Toews.

Kane TOI: 19:38
Toews TOI: 17:19

If you're looking for specifically when they're out there I wouldn't know where to find it, I'd recommend you watch the game if you haven't yet.

 

[silverfish]

Kane TOI: 19:38
Toews TOI: 17:19

If you're looking for specifically when they're out there I wouldn't know where to find it, I'd recommend you watch the game if you haven't yet.

I need to quit HF.

 

[TheGuarantee]

Do you have the TOI splits from that game? I'd like to see the matchup stats between Kane and Toews. Kane had two assists in that game. And if Toews was matched up against Kane "shutting him down", means he was on the ice for both USA goals in the gold medal game.

And you're wrong. Toews tied for third in the tournament in point total with Rafalski and Parise (who each played one less game). Hossa was 2nd behind Demitra.

And for the record, I watched every game of that Olympics, but I trust the stats a lot more than my memory of something that occurred 6 years ago.

Yes you're right I misread the stats, I thought I had read Hossa with 8. Either way, the Slovaks are irrelevant in this discussion.

 

[TheGuarantee]

I need to quit HF.

Only took you 24,000 posts to realize that

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

HF is an addiction.

 

[TheGuarantee]

Serious question, silverfish

Is this you whenever Toews is mentioned?

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think I'm not communicating well the point I'm trying to make.

You seem to agree that it's okay for the fans to disagree with coaching decisions and opinions. I just happen to disagree with this one.

Its definitely okay to disagree with a coach. Coaches are not infallible. Coaches will have to make some tough calls. Some will go right and some will go wrong. Sometimes the same decision will go right in some games and poorly in other games. Do you think it is possible that guys up close to players just might be better qualified to judge players more often than not than we can as spectators? Do you think spectators such as myself are in a position to know more about Toews as a player than Crosby? Crosby has played against and with Toews for years. I never have.

 

[Infinitum Vitae*]

Serious question, silverfish

Is this you whenever Toews is mentioned?

Nope its when Miller is mentioned

 

[TheGuarantee]

Nope its when Miller is mentioned

The funny part is I'm definitely pro-trading Miller if it means defensive upgrade

 

[silverfish]

Its definitely okay to disagree with a coach. Coaches are not infallible. Coaches will have to make some tough calls. Some will go right and some will go wrong. Sometimes the same decision will go right in some games and poorly in other games. Do you think it is possible that guys up close to players just might be better qualified to judge players more often than not than we can as spectators? Do you think spectators such as myself are in a position to know more about Toews as a player than Crosby? Crosby has played against and with Toews for years. I never have.

Sure, but when is the last time Crosby said anything negative about one of his team Canada teammates?

I don't think he'd do that.

It's like when Dubinsky said playing in Columbus is better than playing at the Garden. Have I ever played in Nationwide arena? No. Do I think it's better than playing at MSG? **** no. Do I expect Dubinsky, a member of the Blue Jackets, to say Nationwide isn't the best arena in the NHL? No.

Anyway, I'm more than thrilled to stop this conversation. I'm going out in a few minutes anyway.

Thanks for always keeping it civil, NF, that much I really do appreciate

(yes, LarryMcDavid, this is a 'subtweet' directed at you)