Around the NHL Summer 2021

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Yes please! Pretty passionate Winterhawks fan base too. Not to mention the Moda Center for the games.

Man I wish they'd move there. Portland is the next city I plan on moving to. I just think that it's pretty sad how Bettman won't let that team leave Arizona despite over 2 decades of poor attendance, at least 3 ownership changes and league stewardship between 2009 and 2013. They've been an absolute drain on the league even in their best years.

 

[golffuul]

He seems like a high maintenance star for sure. Like I said, I think he's kind of a turd but the league is better off with him in it than without. Buffalo is fully to blame for letting this situation become what it is.

Being in Buffalo, though, is he "really" in the League? *sarcasm*

 

[golffuul]

Maybe I'm not up on things, but I don't see him as wanting out from that terrible ownership as a mark against him. If anything I'm happy to see a young NHL player make a stand for a change.

But it's possible I've missed something here.

From an outside point of view, I see both sides as butting heads but that Buffalo bent over backwards to make him the face of the franchise, but Eichel, to me, abuses the privilege. He acts like a spoiled kid, IMO. The ownership, to me, also acts like a bunch of spoiled rich kids throwing money around without really ever having any meaningful idea of how to develop a good product on the ice.

 

[ricky0034]

Why? Yes Eichel seems like kind of a turd. But at the same time, Buffalo is an organization run by even bigger turds. At this point I just feel bad for him.

I hate that, "Shut up and cry on your millions of dollars!" mentality that some fans have. Whether a player is making league minimum or league maximum shouldn't matter if their career and livelihood are being held hostage by a really shitty ownership group. So what if he doesn't want to play in Buffalo? Let him get the surgery so he can be traded. Let Buffalo get a couple players out of the deal that will tow the company line and be happy losers instead.

the fact is he's under contract with Buffalo until 2026

nobody forced him to sign that and they shouldn't move him just for the sake of it if nobodies offering a return they are satisfied with

I have no sympathy for people that freely chose to sign a long term contract trying to use the media/public opinion to pressure their team into moving them

 

[Bench]

the fact is he's under contract with Buffalo until 2026

nobody forced him to sign that and they shouldn't move him just for the sake of it if nobodies offering a return they are satisfied with

I have no sympathy for people that freely chose to sign a long term contract trying to use the media/public opinion to pressure their team into moving them

Very easy to make judgements from our vantage point about turning down $80 million dollars guaranteed because you're dissatisfied with the franchise.

I'm sure you've never agreed to something under pretences that ended up being less than truthful. And NHL contracts aren't designed to force players to stay with a team forever if they are unhappy.

This is some very old school, suck it up mentally. I'm sure the billionaire owners are thrilled people still back them and blame the uppity players.

 

[Bondurant]

And in more recent f***ery, the Coyotes are getting the boot from their arena in Glendale!

City of Glendale, Gila River Arena will cut ties with Arizona Coyotes following 2021-22 NHL season

Apparently the attendance there only nets them 12k in sales and taxes, while the average concert nets them 25k. Also concert goers spend on average $58 per event versus $28 for the cheap ass Coyotes fans. And I can only imagine the maintenance costs being inflated from setting up the ice, melting and draining, then repeating that. Sounds like a smart move by Glendale.

It's also sounding like the Coyotes need to get the fudge out of the desert. Portland would go absolutely nuts for an NHL team with how rabid their fans are for the Blazers and Timbers (MLS).

It's a political move. Glendale needs hockey as long as possible and they know it so they are trying to be the mean cop. They will buckle in the end. Icecapades and concerts won't keep them booked. Bettman knows it. Meruelo knows it. Even Glendale knows it.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

the fact is he's under contract with Buffalo until 2026

nobody forced him to sign that and they shouldn't move him just for the sake of it if nobodies offering a return they are satisfied with

A player signs that contract for 2 reasons.
1 is financial security that sets them up for life. Seriously, who at the age of 21 says no to 10 million a year for 8 years?
2 is buying what the team is selling. They made him the face of the franchise and told him they were going to build a winner around him. I don't need to get into what an absolute shit show Buffalo has been because I think it's pretty common knowledge.

Buffalo broke their promise to Eichel by not giving him a good support structure on the ice through their general incompetence. They have hired and fired 4 head coaches since 2015. 3 GMs in that span. Their genius ownership group thought that overspending on Okposo and Skinner would be the guys that Eichel needed while giving away Ryan OReilly for nothing and letting Robin Lehner sign with NYI for 1.5 million.
Buffalo is ALSO not allowing him to seek out a medical procedure that is new DESPITE 95% SUCCESS RATES is spiteful. He's a modern day athlete being treated like a piece of property as if we're back in the pre-NHLPA days.

If I were in Eichel's shoes I would also want out because no amount of money is worth being treated like shit by your managers and owners of the organization. Just because someone pays you does not entitle them to treat you poorly.

On the topic of trading Eichel, the longer the Sabers draw this out the worse it's going to be for them.
The year by year return on their ask is going to decrease and decrease. Right now they're probably asking for a crazy Eric Lindros return (just assuming based on reports from GMs saying that Buffalo's demands are crazy.) They aren't getting anyone to bite because Eichel isn't worth that much, and as stated above the shitheads in management there aren't letting Eichel fix his neck.

What they'll get, and I've said it before, is going to be pretty bad. I said something akin to the Joe Thornton to San Jose trade and I will be absolutely shocked if it is better than that.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

It's a political move. Glendale needs hockey as long as possible and they know it so they are trying to be the mean cop. They will buckle in the end. Icecapades and concerts won't keep them booked. Bettman knows it. Meruelo knows it. Even Glendale knows it.

They literally make twice as much per non-hockey event.

So do this math:
Add the from the money normally lost from operating expenses of setting up and tearing down and setting up an ice hockey rink 41 times per season (because we know they aren't ever making the playoffs)
Subtract (41 regular season games * 12k which is the profit per event) +( ($28 concessions and souvenirs per attendee * average number of attendees ) * number of events)
That is the money lost

Now add (20 events * 25k profit per event) + (( $58 concessions and souvenirs per attendee * average number of attendees) * number of events)
I would assume that for half as much work they would make at least as much money. Maybe more, depending on how much operating expenses are. Maintaining ice in the desert ain't cheap.

Now, instead of 20 events maybe they get 30. Or 40 more.

Glendale will make more money without the Coyotes and that is very sad.

 

[Bench]

They literally make twice as much per non-hockey event.

So do this math:
Add the from the money normally lost from operating expenses of setting up and tearing down and setting up an ice hockey rink 41 times per season (because we know they aren't ever making the playoffs)
Subtract (41 regular season games * 12k which is the profit per event) +( ($28 concessions and souvenirs per attendee * average number of attendees ) * number of events)
That is the money lost

Now add (20 events * 25k profit per event) + (( $58 concessions and souvenirs per attendee * average number of attendees) * number of events)
I would assume that for half as much work they would make at least as much money. Maybe more, depending on how much operating expenses are. Maintaining ice in the desert ain't cheap.

Now, instead of 20 events maybe they get 30. Or 40 more.

Glendale will make more money without the Coyotes and that is very sad.

It's a damn shame because Dallas is a perfect example of how it can work in a market like that. I have friends born and raised in Texas that are season ticket holders and those that have kids have enrolled them into the thriving youth programs.

With a wiser and steadier hand, the Coyotes could be doing well and growing the sport.

 

[ricky0034]

A player signs that contract for 2 reasons.
1 is financial security that sets them up for life. Seriously, who at the age of 21 says no to 10 million a year for 8 years?
2 is buying what the team is selling. They made him the face of the franchise and told him they were going to build a winner around him. I don't need to get into what an absolute shit show Buffalo has been because I think it's pretty common knowledge.

Buffalo broke their promise to Eichel by not giving him a good support structure on the ice through their general incompetence. They have hired and fired 4 head coaches since 2015. 3 GMs in that span. Their genius ownership group thought that overspending on Okposo and Skinner would be the guys that Eichel needed while giving away Ryan OReilly for nothing and letting Robin Lehner sign with NYI for 1.5 million.
Buffalo is ALSO not allowing him to seek out a medical procedure that is new DESPITE 95% SUCCESS RATES is spiteful. He's a modern day athlete being treated like a piece of property as if we're back in the pre-NHLPA days.

If I were in Eichel's shoes I would also want out because no amount of money is worth being treated like shit by your managers and owners of the organization. Just because someone pays you does not entitle them to treat you poorly.

On the topic of trading Eichel, the longer the Sabers draw this out the worse it's going to be for them.
The year by year return on their ask is going to decrease and decrease. Right now they're probably asking for a crazy Eric Lindros return (just assuming based on reports from GMs saying that Buffalo's demands are crazy.) They aren't getting anyone to bite because Eichel isn't worth that much, and as stated above the shitheads in management there aren't letting Eichel fix his neck.

What they'll get, and I've said it before, is going to be pretty bad. I said something akin to the Joe Thornton to San Jose trade and I will be absolutely shocked if it is better than that.

again nobody forced him to sign a deal that long, he wanted the security of a long-term deal but now doesn't want to live up to the other end of it, sorry but no sympathy from me for someone wanting to have it both ways

same thing with the surgery stuff, he wants Buffalo to pay for it and continue to pay his contract if it happened to go bad, sorry but you don't get to both have that and dictate to the team what treatment method you're getting if their doctors disagree with you, if he wants it that badly he's free to go pay for it himself and risk his contract being voided or whatever

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

It's a damn shame because Dallas is a perfect example of how it can work in a market like that. I have friends born and raised in Texas that are season ticket holders and those that have kids have enrolled them into the thriving youth programs.

With a wiser and steadier hand, the Coyotes could be doing well and growing the sport.

I think with good management practices, creative marketing campaigns and an owner willing to empower their employees to do their job then most businesses have a chance at succeeding anywhere if the market is big enough.
Dallas isn't a weird example because it's a city of transplants. (Myself being one of them) so it's not that surprising. I think I've met more people from outside of Texas that live in Dallas than I have native Texans. I didn't live in Texas when the North Stars relocated but they had a very solid management braintrust in place to build them into a contender and then later championship team, and Tom Hicks was a pretty good owner until he went bankrupt.

The idea behind moving a team to Arizona was flawed from the get-go, same as expanding to Florida. "Snowbirds! We'll market the game to snowbirds! All those northern retirees will LOVE watching hockey down here!" That was the big pitch in the early and mid 90's.
Tampa was able to do something there with their fanbase while Bill Davidson (RIP) owned the team. Then Jeff Vinik came in and hired the right people and got out of the way. Florida hasn't had that much success in reaching their fans if you look at their team's attendance in comparison, despite a larger metro area.

 

[Bench]

The idea behind moving a team to Arizona was flawed from the get-go, same as expanding to Florida.

Aren't there a ton of transplants in the Phoenix area too?

My grandparents were Arizona snowbirds and I had more than one childhood friend end up living there, so maybe I'm overestimating it.

 

[Bondurant]

They literally make twice as much per non-hockey event.

So do this math:
Add the from the money normally lost from operating expenses of setting up and tearing down and setting up an ice hockey rink 41 times per season (because we know they aren't ever making the playoffs)
Subtract (41 regular season games * 12k which is the profit per event) +( ($28 concessions and souvenirs per attendee * average number of attendees ) * number of events)
That is the money lost

Now add (20 events * 25k profit per event) + (( $58 concessions and souvenirs per attendee * average number of attendees) * number of events)
I would assume that for half as much work they would make at least as much money. Maybe more, depending on how much operating expenses are. Maintaining ice in the desert ain't cheap.

Now, instead of 20 events maybe they get 30. Or 40 more.

Glendale will make more money without the Coyotes and that is very sad.

I can do the math based on number of nights there is no action of any kind at GRA. Part of this is a hissy fit they are having because Tempe may be luring Coyotes away. This is local politics and nothing more.

 

[Electric Eric]

Man I wish they'd move there. Portland is the next city I plan on moving to. I just think that it's pretty sad how Bettman won't let that team leave Arizona despite over 2 decades of poor attendance, at least 3 ownership changes and league stewardship between 2009 and 2013. They've been an absolute drain on the league even in their best years.

Imagine how much embarrassment the league would've avoided if they had let Paul Allen buy the 'Yotes and move them after the league had to take over ownership.

Sure it would've been embarrassing to happen so quickly after Atlanta but the way its gone...woof.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I can do the math based on number of nights there is no action of any kind at GRA. Part of this is a hissy fit they are having because Tempe may be luring Coyotes away. This is local politics and nothing more.

I think you missed the point where Gila River said "We make more money without you". The Coyotes are moving to Tempe because Gila River doesn't want them.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Aren't there a ton of transplants in the Phoenix area too?

My grandparents were Arizona snowbirds and I had more than one childhood friend end up living there, so maybe I'm overestimating it.

There are a lot of snowbirds in Arizona. Not as many as Florida, but still a lot. It's still a shitty business plan to assume your base is old, retired people who move somewhere warm because they have achy joints. And not so crazily, that's what the NHL did. Here's a recent article about Arizona still trying this tired old method.

Coyotes want Canadians; Tim Horton's at arena?

 

[Bondurant]

I think you missed the point where Gila River said "We make more money without you". The Coyotes are moving to Tempe because Gila River doesn't want them.

They are banking on filling GRA with other events. Tall order. Not a happening venue. They are already touting IceCapades as a savior. Smells like trouble.

 

[Bondurant]

There are a lot of snowbirds in Arizona. Not as many as Florida, but still a lot. It's still a shitty business plan to assume your base is old, retired people who move somewhere warm because they have achy joints. And not so crazily, that's what the NHL did. Here's a recent article about Arizona still trying this tired old method.

Coyotes want Canadians; Tim Horton's at arena?

Not a recent article. Almost a decade old. Tim Horton's has been gone 2-3 years. Too bad. Always a line but better than DD.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Dude is such a whiner. I'd let him rot in Buffalo at this point.

Jack also has little brother syndrome.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

There are a lot of snowbirds in Arizona. Not as many as Florida, but still a lot. It's still a shitty business plan to assume your base is old, retired people who move somewhere warm because they have achy joints. And not so crazily, that's what the NHL did. Here's a recent article about Arizona still trying this tired old method.

Coyotes want Canadians; Tim Horton's at arena?

Phoenix is huge in the same way that Miami is huge though. While yes they have snowbirds, they are also just large enough cities with tons of people in them. I wouldn't say it is a retiree model, it can help your bottom line, do it correctly and not many people talk about it like Tampa. Who yes as Cup champions have a massive following, but when I go to Tampa I see plenty of Wings jerseys and northern city jerseys not even playing that night, so much so they had to put a policy against it that failed. The problem with Phoenix is honestly not that much different than the problem in Ottawa. They have had shitty ownership and put their arenas in terrible locations to take deals that didn't actually benefit them as much as they hoped. Nobody runs around contract the Sens, send them to Quebec (a market I don't believe the NHL should return to same as Hartford...) because that doesn't fit a certain narrative.

The superstar in the biggest city and highest earner in the league isn't a hockey player without the Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes. I would argue if Matthews does lead the Maple Leafs back to a cup in the next 5 years and yes that isn't necessarily something I put great odds on at this moment that Phoenix produced something to the league. Also if they ever actually leveraged his proud Mexican-American heritage in the States with USA hockey taking a step forward too the value of that is incredible.

It usually takes you three generations in a market to really solidify a passionate fan-base with a genuine staying power. Canadian teams have an easier time as it is the national game. But I think people get bent out of shape on this quickly. I am not outright protecting Phoenix from a move, I think it might happen. My guess is they consider Houston and Portland if they do as those have been rumored for years. They really shouldn't have let their deal fall apart with ASU a few years back. I think hockey would work in Phoenix, it just needs to be downtown or at least in Scottsdale.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Very easy to make judgements from our vantage point about turning down $80 million dollars guaranteed because you're dissatisfied with the franchise.

I'm sure you've never agreed to something under pretences that ended up being less than truthful. And NHL contracts aren't designed to force players to stay with a team forever if they are unhappy.

This is some very old school, suck it up mentally. I'm sure the billionaire owners are thrilled people still back them and blame the uppity players.

I think it is somewhere in the middle though in terms of suck it up and hey he should have all the rights in the world to demand out and have it honored immediately. He basically has signed an upper executive level contract and those are more common than maybe your average person understands. To be a VP level or above at one of the local auto-industry titans in Detroit for instance you're putting non-compete clauses and all sorts of things in your contract. So that if you want to move you have to get approval from the company. Eichel represents this kind of investment.

Now on the flip side, his health is his health alone. While yes those same clauses exsist in the executive world again, the outright denial of a preferred and legal surgery is pretty ****** up by the Sabres. I get that the money investment here is also at the crux of the issue, but surely the Sabres do have some say in what they move him for on the flip side of this in a business trade sense. I think they have no right on the health, they can void the contract if they are unhappy with that, because that is the legal avenue there... Jack Eichel signed that long-term contract and it does afford him certain rights, the Sabres signed him to it and the details with in to protect themselves and reach what they thought was fair to employ him. They don't have to just take it because he wants them to is a part of this picture as rough as that sounds.

I think the issue I always have with this is I cannot remember it ending well when a team has gotten here. Maybe Kobe Bryant when he wanted to leave the Lakers and they kind of folded to his demands is the only time I can think of it working out... I just think moving Eichel for what you could have earlier with LA or Anaheim was probably your right play, because I am not sure he is gaining value at all at this point. Even if a healthy Eichel is a top 10 player, he isn't healthy and won't be until he can get his procedure and in a flat cap world you don't actually have a ton of options. When this board talks about offer sheeting Pettersson, I actually sort of think you can go get Eichel probably cheaper despite Buffalo's reported asking price. I don't think they will want to trade him in division, but man I would love if Stevie somehow pulled his voodoo and got Jack out of Buffalo, I know it is a pipe dream, but I would be over the moon to get him.

Life is usually not black/white in terms of how often we look at this also as who is right and wrong. I think it makes total sense this situation is a mess, when you look at it from the outside it is like man, what do you do stuff... I feel for Sabres fans, that is a good fan-base that has been getting kicked in the teeth for a decade.

 

[Bondurant]

Phoenix is huge in the same way that Miami is huge though. While yes they have snowbirds, they are also just large enough cities with tons of people in them. I wouldn't say it is a retiree model, it can help your bottom line, do it correctly and not many people talk about it like Tampa. Who yes as Cup champions have a massive following, but when I go to Tampa I see plenty of Wings jerseys and northern city jerseys not even playing that night. The problem with Phoenix is honestly not that much different than the problem in Ottawa. They have had shitty ownership and put their arenas in terrible locations to take deals that didn't actually benefit them as much as they hoped. Nobody runs around contract the Sens, send them to Quebec (a market I don't believe the NHL should return to same as Hartford...) because that doesn't fit a certain narrative.

The superstar in the biggest city and highest earner in the league isn't a hockey player without the Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes. I would argue if Matthews does lead the Maple Leafs back to a cup in the next 5 years and yes that isn't necessarily something I put great odds on at this moment that Phoenix produced something to the league. Also if they ever actually leveraged his proud Mexican-American heritage in the States with USA hockey taking a step forward too the value of that is incredible.

It usually takes you three generations in a market to really solidify a passionate fan-base with a genuine staying power. Canadian teams have an easier time as it is the national game. But I think people get bent out of shape on this quickly. I am not outright protecting Phoenix from a move, I think it might happen. My guess is they consider Houston and Portland if they do as those have been rumored for years. They really shouldn't have let their deal fall apart with ASU a few years back. I think hockey would work in Phoenix, it just needs to be downtown or at least in Scottsdale.

You bring up valid points that I have raised with some. There is a hypocritical take many hockey fans have about Phoenix. When Ottawa cannot draw a crowd because of arena location that is a valid excuse. When Chicago and Pittsburgh cannot draw because of how terrible they are that is a valid excuse. When the Coyotes suffer from bad location and bad hockey it's "no fans, move them". Ironic to point out that Pittsburgh was closer to moving than the Coyotes are now and no one seems to bat an eye about that.

That said I wish ownership would focus on building a solid team first (they did make an attempt just with the wrong signings) because winning is king here. Suns and D-backs have the prized location but when things aren't going well the interest is not impressive. It's the nature of the beast here. The local teams have to grind for success more and work harder. Too many people are fans of another team first. I have a Coyotes weekend season ticket package but Wings have my main focus still. On weeknights and sometimes are GRA and I am rolling with my parents cable credentials.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You bring up valid points that I have raised with some. There is a hypocritical take many hockey fans have about Phoenix. When Ottawa cannot draw a crowd because of arena location that is a valid excuse. When Chicago and Pittsburgh cannot draw because of how terrible they are that is a valid excuse. When the Coyotes suffer from bad location and bad hockey it's "no fans, move them". Ironic to point out that Pittsburgh was closer to moving than the Coyotes are now and no one seems to bat an eye about that.

That said I wish ownership would focus on building a solid team first (they did make an attempt just with the wrong signings) because winning is king here. Suns and D-backs have the prized location but when things aren't going well the interest is not impressive. It's the nature of the beast here. The local teams have to grind for success more and work harder. Too many people are fans of another team first. I have a Coyotes weekend season ticket package but Wings have my main focus still. On weeknights and sometimes are GRA and I am rolling with my parents cable credentials.

Glendale (the government) has never cared for the Coyotes. One of the guys who was heavily involved in the deal as part of the city council I believe was later a member of the GFOA (Government Finance Officers Association). At one of the conferences that they do, which sadly haven't been live in two years, I sat and talked with him at dinner. He regaled me with the story of how lopsided the deal they negotiated with the Coyotes was. Glendale seemingly always took advantage of the NHL wanting to force hockey in Arizona.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

What is going on with hockey over the past 7 days?

Rod Gilbert passes away.
Jimmy Hayes passes away.
Caleb Reimer, Ronin Sharma and Parker Magnuson pass away in a car wreck.

This is just incredibly sad.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

What is going on with hockey over the past 7 days?

Rod Gilbert passes away.
Jimmy Hayes passes away.
Caleb Reimer, Ronin Sharma and Parker Magnuson pass away in a car wreck.

This is just incredibly sad.

Wait, what the f***? That sucks so hard for Jimmy Hayes. A couple months after his second son was born with a 2 year old. Man, this is really shitty.