OT: Around the NHL: non-Pens playoff talk

[Ryder71]

I've watched plenty of McDavid and plenty of Lemieux. Frankly it isn't even that close.

Lemieux was like a prime Malkin in constant beast mode magnified by a factor of 10. That isn't just because I'm a Penguins fan and he's my all time favorite player though yeah I'm sure I'm a bit biased. It isn't a slight against McDavid either. He is this era's premier player. Lemieux would have awful games and still put up multiple points. Sometimes it looked like he barely had to try.

A man among boys was Mario.

 

[Gurglesons]

I've watched plenty of McDavid and plenty of Lemieux. Frankly it isn't even that close.

Lemieux was like a prime Malkin in constant beast mode magnified by a factor of 10. That isn't just because I'm a Penguins fan and he's my all time favorite player though yeah I'm sure I'm a bit biased. It isn't a slight against McDavid either. He is this era's premier player. Lemieux would have awful games and still put up multiple points. Sometimes it looked like he barely had to try.

The thing with Lemieux is his play and body type is basically tailor made for this era. He is the best player in history at one on one play. He could do whatever he wanted on the ice, but the refs let two players drape off him or hack him every two seconds to prevent it. Take away that element and lower the average defenseman height by a couple pounds and inches. Remove the red line and Lemieux is going absolutely wild on the league in his prime. It isn't even a question. He produced at McDavid levels from this year when he was 35 after taking off a couple years in the dead puck era.

It's not like we didn't see Lemieux in the "new NHL" either. That's the difference when people try to argue him versus Gretzky (although I still subscribe that Gretzky actually did it so he is the better player). Gretzky largely played his peak in the wide open NHL. Lemieux started his career there, but his peak was from I would say 89 - 96. So he did see the slow morph away from the wide open NHL and poor goaltending to the apex of goaltending and system play.

 

[Ryder71]

The thing with Lemieux is his play and body type is basically tailor made for this era. He is the best player in history at one on one play. He could do whatever he wanted on the ice, but the refs let two players drape off him or hack him every two seconds to prevent it. Take away that element and lower the average defenseman height by a couple pounds and inches. Remove the red line and Lemieux is going absolutely wild on the league in his prime. It isn't even a question. He produced at McDavid levels from this year when he was 35 after taking off a couple years in the dead puck era.

In nine games in the Cup Finals Mario (if memory serves me correctly) had 10 goals and 9 assists. More Goals than games when it mattered most. YOU think about that now!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The thing with Lemieux is his play and body type is basically tailor made for this era. He is the best player in history at one on one play. He could do whatever he wanted on the ice, but the refs let two players drape off him or hack him every two seconds to prevent it. Take away that element and lower the average defenseman height by a couple pounds and inches. Remove the red line and Lemieux is going absolutely wild on the league in his prime. It isn't even a question. He produced at McDavid levels from this year when he was 35 after taking off a couple years in the dead puck era.

I agree.

I know speed will be quoted as a potentially negative factor. But it wasn't like Mario was a dog in that regard (his "gallop" was more upright but also comparable to Malkin's) and frankly it just wouldn't matter much. He was so good at anticipating the play and being in the right areas of the ice to exploit offensively that he didn't really have to exert himself overmuch. He was always a few steps ahead of the play. That isn't just a thing to say, either... it's the truth.

Also yeah... even though today's officiating is still a joke, they at LEAST wouldn't let two guys waterski him through the neutral zone every shift.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Mario was a much better goal scorer, MUCH better. An a better playmaker.

But he wouldn't have the time and space to use those things as effectively now. Easier to look better when you do.
Clutch and grab notwithstanding, defenses and goalies have better awareness, skating and positioning now.

You may be not paying enough credit to McDavid's playmaking because he has to deal with that regularly, since his rookie year. You do the best you can with the situation you have. He has much less time to make decisions.

Look:

Active NHL Players - Assists per Game Leaders

He's the best playmaker now by far, whether through passing or other means.

 

[Gurglesons]

In nine games in the Cup Finals Mario (if memory serves me correctly) had 10 goals and 9 assists. More Goals than games when it mattered most. YOU think about that now!

I have a signed Lemieux poster in my office I think about every day.

I love Crosby. Crosby is the more accomplished Penguin in terms of what he brought to this city from an on ice standpoint. But those who didn't watch Mario don't understand the shear joy he instilled and the unparalleled dominance. I imagine it was very similar to what Orr did.

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree.

I know speed will be quoted as a potentially negative factor. But it wasn't like Mario was a dog in that regard (his "gallop" was more upright but also comparable to Malkin's) and frankly it just wouldn't matter much. He was so good at anticipating the play and being in the right areas of the ice to exploit offensively that he didn't really have to exert himself overmuch. He was always a few steps ahead of the play. That isn't just a thing to say, either... it's the truth.

It's why I laugh my ass off when people try to compare McDavid and him.

McDavid was absolutely incredible this year. Amazing record season for the new NHL. And he's like producing at a level Lemieux did at 35 in the height of the dead puck era taking off a couple years.

McDavid would need do what he did this year for the next five (which is possible, I do believe he has another level to his game) to be in the breath of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Crosby and Ovechkin are top 15 players all time in my mind, but their accolades are based around their longevity and compete. They aren't the legends that are Gretzky and Lemieux. Not even close. Prime Gretzky and Lemieux would never lose a scoring race to their team mate. Prime Gretzky and Lemieux would never lose a scoring race to Henrik Sedin or Nikita Kucherov. They were the best players always when they were on the ice. Even into their twilights.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's why I laugh my ass off when people try to compare McDavid and him.

McDavid was absolutely incredible this year. Amazing record season for the new NHL. And he's like producing at a level Lemieux did at 35 in the height of the dead puck era taking off a couple years.

McDavid would need do what he did this year for the next five (which is possible, I do believe he has another level to his game) to be in the breath of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Yeah I mean I just want to re-assert that none of this is meant as a means to rip on McDavid. But Lemieux? Nahhhhh...

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah I mean I just want to re-assert that none of this is meant as a means to rip on McDavid. But Lemieux? Nahhhhh...

McDavid just trucked what Crosby and Ovie did in their peak. That being said, he didn't do it in a real season. Just like 2011 with Sid. Just like Ovechkin "breaking Gretzky's record". You need to do it.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised to see McDavid go all out next year again. He has another level in terms of goalscoring and actually dictating play without just speed to reach.

 

[Ryder71]

But he wouldn't have the time and space to use those things as effectively now. Easier to look better when you do.
Clutch and grab notwithstanding, defenses and goalies have better awareness, skating and positioning now.

You may be not paying enough credit to McDavid's playmaking because he has to deal with that regularly, since his rookie year. You do the best you can with the situation you have.

Look:

Active NHL Players - Assists per Game Leaders

He's the best playmaker now by far, whether through passing or other means.

Listen, I think McDavid is incredible, he's just sublimely awesome! But Mario could just humiliate people nightly. McDavid can and does, but not nearly to that degree. McDavids vision is only behind Wayne and Mario. But make no mistake, he is behind them. I don't know how old you are but I'm wondering just how much you saw of these players. Again I'm a huge supporter of McDavid, but he's not at that level. Sid is closer to McDAVID (in his prime than McDavid is to Mario or Gretzky). Keep in mind the league back then would have slowed him down a bit. And lets not forget skates are better now also. Every piece of equipment is revolutionized since. It's lighter, more breathable and can enhance your speed game.

 

[Ryder71]

I have a signed Lemieux poster in my office I think about every day.

I love Crosby. Crosby is the more accomplished Penguin in terms of what he brought to this city from an on ice standpoint. But those who didn't watch Mario don't understand the shear joy he instilled and the unparalleled dominance. I imagine it was very similar to what Orr did.

I largely agree but Sid wasn't more accomplished, not when it comes to individual accolades, honors, scoring titles etc.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Listen, I think McDavid is incredible, he's just sublimely awesome! But Mario could just humiliate people nightly. McDavid can and does, but not nearly to that degree. McDavids vision is only behind Wayne and Mario. But make no mistake, he is behind them. I don't know how old you are but I'm wondering just how much you saw of these players. Again I'm a huge supporter of McDavid, but he's not at that level. Sid is closer to McDAVID (in his prime than McDavid is to Mario or Gretzky). Keep in mind the league back then would have slowed him down a bit. And lets not forget skates are better now also. Every piece of equipment is revolutionized since. It's lighter, more breathable and can enhance your speed game.

I'm long time poster Riikola btw . 34 y/o.

I watched Mario from 1993 to 2005, and I brushed up pretty hard on his history from his rookie year to the point I started watching.
Just trying to be objective.

We've been given a gift here with McDavid. He may not have peaked yet either. I'm glad he has Draisaitl too. Would have been sad with no help in the salary cap era.

Gretzky was so spoiled.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Evidently Cokebird tested positive a second time for COVID.

WTF is this guy doing?

 

[Kristopher Letang]

Evidently Cokebird tested positive a second time for COVID.

WTF is this guy doing?

Cocaine results in false positives?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Cocaine results in false positives?

According to my trainwreck of a cousin Chad who runs a car dealership... no it doesn't.

But seriously dude obviously has no use for rules and protocol. Or even basic common sense.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

According to my trainwreck of a cousin Chad who runs a car dealership... no it doesn't.

But seriously dude obviously has no use for rules and protocol. Or even basic common sense.

Is he vaccinated? Maybe he refused and that’s why he keeps getting it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Is he vaccinated? Maybe he refused and that’s why he keeps getting it.

That I don't know. I know like 8 players or something like that refused in St. Louis and people are kinda paranoid and a bit stupid so it wouldn't surprise me.

I just assume he's running around at all hours partying and living it up. Where I live I know most people who contracted it were going to bars and restaurants 24/7 like everything was normal. In a much more metro area like D.C. the dangers have to be that much higher.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Also did anyone see OV screaming at his own goaltender after the winner last night?

Good times. Love those Capitals.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Also did anyone see OV screaming at his own goaltender after the winner last night?

Good times. Love those Capitals.

Not sure if it was Samsonov or Schultz, but yeah, Ovechkin was unhinged.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not sure if it was Samsonov or Schultz, but yeah, Ovechkin was unhinged.

But ya know... It's Ovechkin so it's "teh pashun!" or something. Not just him being a massive douche.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Also did anyone see OV screaming at his own goaltender after the winner last night?

Good times. Love those Capitals.

Nothing says leadership and character like berating a teammate after a loss.

 

[Ryder71]

Also did anyone see OV screaming at his own goaltender after the winner last night?

Good times. Love those Capitals.

Well, that was a boneheaded play, and it costed them the game. Probably not the best way to handle it however.

 

[Ryder71]

Nothing says leadership and character like berating a teammate after a loss.

True, But that was a really absurd play though.

 

[Ryder71]

I'm long time poster Riikola btw . 34 y/o.

I watched Mario from 1993 to 2005, and I brushed up pretty hard on his history from his rookie year to the point I started watching.
Just trying to be objective.

We've been given a gift here with McDavid. He may not have peaked yet either. I'm glad he has Draisaitl too. Would have been sad with no help in the salary cap era.

Gretzky was so spoiled.

Oh, hi, I didn't realize who you were.

You're one of my favorite posters!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

True, But that was a really absurd play though.

I mean fair enough... but it happens. I didn't see Sid ripping into Jarry after a shitshow of a game 1.