Around the NHL - Episode XLVI

[Sens of Anarchy]

Hot Take - heard it here first

Pierre Dorion is going to be the GM of the Habs and Bergevin becomes Team President.

Dorion is going to be the one to trade Price and Weber and rebuild the Habs.

Best news I've heard in a long time

 

[DrEasy]

I think teams will continue to overreact when they lose to us because we started the season so badly and played so terribly that everyone just assumes that they should walk all over our team and if we beat anyone, it is only because "the other team played bad".

Difference being to start the year we had a different lineup (no Zub, White or Brannstrom), we also had too many new players, including rookies, that needed time to figure things out and now they have.

If we get better goaltending moving forward, then I see us winning way more games than we lose but we need Murray to be much better.

It's honestly a bit insulting that teams fire their coach just because it is inconceivable to them that they could lose to the Sens. Insulting, but probably justified, I guess.

 

[bicboi64]

Hot Take - heard it here first

Pierre Dorion is going to be the GM of the Habs and Bergevin becomes Team President.

Dorion is going to be the one to trade Price and Weber and rebuild the Habs.

I will be very impressed if he is able to move Price without giving up a first rounder or two

 

[Tuna99]

I will be very impressed if he is able to move Price without giving up a first rounder or two

Weber to Edmonton
Price to Seattle

 

[Micklebot]

Weber to Edmonton
Price to Seattle

Weber seems like the ultimate Ottawa contract, owed 12 mil over the next 5 years for an average of 2.4 per, but a cap hit of 7.8.

A team like Edmonton might be concerned that he lives up to his cap hit in his late 30s, i suspect only teams not pushing the cap would be interested in him.

 

[Tuna99]

Weber seems like the ultimate Ottawa contract, owed 12 mil over the next 5 years for an average of 2.4 per, but a cap hit of 7.8.

A team like Edmonton might be concerned that he lives up to his cap hit in his late 30s, i suspect only teams not pushing the cap would be interested in him.

based it more off of the old Detroit GM collecting old dman and making it work, and Weber as western boy and a perfect fit.

 

[Xspyrit]

Firing Julien is putting a band-aid on a larger problem in MTL. Bergevin should've been axed ages ago. His ability to acquire talent via trade or drafting is piss poor, his contract negotiating skills are crap and he has zero vision for the team.

It's their drafting that has sucked since 2008, no idea why Trevor Timmins is still there after all this time. They have very little drafted talent in their lineup

But Bergevin trades were pretty much all good/great (except Drouin trade?) :

- Acquired Petry for a 2nd + 4th
- Acquired Danault + 2nd (Romanov) for Fleischmann + Weise
- Acquired Suzuki + Tatar + 2nd for Pacioretty
- Acquired Weber for Subban (move that was heavily criticized for 2-3 years but not anymore)
- Acquired Domi for Galchenyuk, then eventually Anderson for Domi + 3rd
- Acquired Armia + 4th + 7th for eating Steve Masons's cap dump for just 1 year
- Acquired Byron from waivers
- Acquired Kulak for Taormina (AHL player that ended up being done shortly after)
- Acquired Thompson + 5th for a 4th round pick, then eventually traded him for another 5th
- Acquired 2nd + 3rd for damaged goods Andrew Shaw
- Acquired Scandella for 4th, then flipped him a few weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th
- Acquired Allen for 3rd, then extended him for a reasonable 2 years at 2.875 (0.930+ SV % since last year)
- Acquired Edmundson for a 5th then signed him for a reasonable 4 years at 3.5 (leads NHL with +18)
- Signed Toffoli and Chiarot as a UFA


He basically built a competitive NHL team for Pacioretty, Subban, Galchenyuk and peanuts (+ Sergachev who was their 9th OA pick)

Drouin-Suzuki-Anderson
Toffoli-Danault-Armia
Tatar-Byron-Perry

Chiarot-Weber
Edmundson-Petry
Kulak

Imagine with good drafting what they could have...


You don't like Gallagher extension? They just got 6 years out of him at 3.75, basically like it was to have Karlsson long term at 6.5. Price's AAV is really not ideal but that's what he was worth on reputation. Medias and even NHL players always mention him as the best goalie so unfortunately for them (and thankfully for us) he had to get paid. Again a bit like EK, this time in San Jose.

I wish Dorion could make moves like that. Bergevin + our drafting would be an insane duo. If Bergevin asset management, trades and signings were Dorion level, they'd easily be the worst team in the NHL, which is ultimately what they would need, to bottom out because I believe it's important to have a good core of homegrown players.

 

[Xspyrit]

I think teams will continue to overreact when they lose to us because we started the season so badly and played so terribly that everyone just assumes that they should walk all over our team and if we beat anyone, it is only because "the other team played bad".

Difference being to start the year we had a different lineup (no Zub, White or Brannstrom), we also had too many new players, including rookies, that needed time to figure things out and now they have.

If we get better goaltending moving forward, then I see us winning way more games than we lose but we need Murray to be much better.

Yeah a bit of bad luck that all these players were injured to start the year

But seriously, not only ZUB (then Brannstrom) totally changed our defense but there's also addition by subtraction. Having less of Anisimov, Josh Brown, Coburn and Paquette in the lineup helped to change the dynamic.

And Murray has been totally fine when we provided a NHL caliber defense, not perfect of course because no goalie is but 0.908 SV% in February despite that 7-3 loss vs Toronto (who was more like the games at the beginning of the season). His numbers will continue to improve as the team improve

Hot Take - heard it here first

Pierre Dorion is going to be the GM of the Habs and Bergevin becomes Team President.

Dorion is going to be the one to trade Price and Weber and rebuild the Habs.

lol I really can't see that happening. Molson wants to win. And I don't think there's a lot to get in a return for Price and Weber. Their contracts won't allow a valuable return

 

[cudi]

Oooof

 

[Beech]

It's their drafting that has sucked since 2008, no idea why Trevor Timmins is still there after all this time. They have very little drafted talent in their lineup

I wish Dorion could make moves like that. Bergevin + our drafting would be an insane duo. If Bergevin asset management, trades and signings were Dorion level, they'd easily be the worst team in the NHL, which is ultimately what they would need, to bottom out because I believe it's important to have a good core of homegrown players.

2010 draft, pick 22; Jarred Tinordi ...out of league....picks 23 and 24 are still playing and while 3rd liners, still playing
2011 draft, Pick 17; Nathan B...a 5/6 defenseman, traded for a bag of pucks..picks 18, 19, 20...bust, bust, 5/6 D man
2012 draft, pick 3; Alex G ...BUST....pick 4, 5, 6 ..one bust, one star, one steady
2013 draft, pick 25; Michael M....BUST...pick 26, 27..one rock stead D man, one bust
2014 draft, pick 26; Nikita S....BUST...pick 27, 28, 29...two busts and a 3rd liner
2015 draft, pick 26; Noah J.....BUST....pick 27, 28, 29... Bust, a rock solid 2nd liner, a bust
2016 draft, pick 9; Mikahail S....a rock steady 3/4 D man...traded for a problem child....
2017 draft, pick 25, Ryan P. ...BUST...picks after busts
2018 draft, pick 3. Jasperi K....so far a 3rd liner....picks 4, 5, 6...a budding star, a bust, a "who knows"

The problem is one floor up guys..the man with the coiffed hair... Imagine if some of the above were different.

Say Tkachuk as a power forward. Say Sergachev as a big three with Weber and Petry. Say Morgan Riley instead of Galch. Say Anthony B. Instead of Juulsen. and so on. Every year from 2010-2018 (less 2017) was a poor pick..with either a star or a rock solid guy going 1-3 picks later. Then when you get a good pick..trade him for a bag of pucks.

The man with the Coiffed hair guys.

I got a reply from a Montreal poster on their site...."Trevor Timmons!!!!" It certainly seems like he is a culprit.

 

[dumbdick]

2010 draft, pick 22; Jarred Tinordi ...out of league....picks 23 and 24 are still playing and while 3rd liners, still playing
2011 draft, Pick 17; Nathan B...a 5/6 defenseman, traded for a bag of pucks..picks 18, 19, 20...bust, bust, 5/6 D man
2012 draft, pick 3; Alex G ...BUST....pick 4, 5, 6 ..one bust, one star, one steady
2013 draft, pick 25; Michael M....BUST...pick 26, 27..one rock stead D man, one bust
2014 draft, pick 26; Nikita S....BUST...pick 27, 28, 29...two busts and a 3rd liner
2015 draft, pick 26; Noah J.....BUST....pick 27, 28, 29... Bust, a rock solid 2nd liner, a bust
2016 draft, pick 9; Mikahail S....a rock steady 3/4 D man...traded for a problem child....
2017 draft, pick 25, Ryan P. ...BUST...picks after busts
2018 draft, pick 3. Jasperi K....so far a 3rd liner....picks 4, 5, 6...a budding star, a bust, a "who knows"

The problem is one floor up guys..the man with the coiffed hair... Imagine if some of the above were different.

Say Tkachuk as a power forward. Say Sergachev as a big three with Weber and Petry. Say Morgan Riley instead of Galch. Say Anthony B. Instead of Juulsen. and so on. Every year from 2010-2018 (less 2017) was a poor pick..with either a star or a rock solid guy going 1-3 picks later. Then when you get a good pick..trade him for a bag of pucks.

The man with the Coiffed hair guys.

I got a reply from a Montreal poster on their site...."Trevor Timmons!!!!" It certainly seems like he is a culprit.

View media item 7715
Honestly, people shouldn't expect that much from late first round picks. Hitting a couple guys in a decade is doing quite well.

 

[Beech]

View media item 7715
Honestly, people shouldn't expect that much from late first round picks. Hitting a couple guys in a decade is doing quite well.

yes, but they have missed on all 10..and the one they hit on..Sergachev..they trade for Drouin!!! The 17 in Nathan B., they trade for a bag of pucks. The two #3's...man did they miss.

So 4 decent picks..4 misses..yea the 20 somethings are harder, but jeez, 1 right out of the 5.

0 for 10....I could probably guess and achieve better results

 

[OperationHotMother]

View media item 7715
Honestly, people shouldn't expect that much from late first round picks. Hitting a couple guys in a decade is doing quite well.

Sure, but they have Jesperi Kotkaniemi (a guy who has never scored 0.5 points per game) to show for two 3rd overall picks. If Dorion did that he'd be quite rightly crucified.

yes, but they have missed on all 10..and the one they hit on..Sergachev..they trade for Drouin!!! The 17 in Nathan B., they trade for a bag of pucks. The two #3's...man did they miss.

So 4 decent picks..4 misses..yea the 20 somethings are harder, but jeez, 1 right out of the 5.

0 for 10....I could probably guess and achieve better results

You could pick the top remaining guy off Bob Mckenzie's list and achieve better. Incidentally, the top remaining guy on Bob Mckenzie's 2018 list was Brady Tkachuk

 

[Beech]

Sure, but they have Jesperi Kotkaniemi (a guy who has never scored 0.5 points per game) to show for two 3rd overall picks. If Dorion did that he'd be quite rightly crucified.

You could pick the top remaining guy off Bob Mckenzie's list and achieve better. Incidentally, the top remaining guy on Bob Mckenzie's 2018 list was Brady Tkachuk

like I wrote..I could have guessed and done better...The man with the fancy Coiff is the issue in MTL

 

[bicboi64]

It's their drafting that has sucked since 2008, no idea why Trevor Timmins is still there after all this time. They have very little drafted talent in their lineup

But Bergevin trades were pretty much all good/great (except Drouin trade?) :

- Acquired Petry for a 2nd + 4th
- Acquired Danault + 2nd (Romanov) for Fleischmann + Weise
- Acquired Suzuki + Tatar + 2nd for Pacioretty
- Acquired Weber for Subban (move that was heavily criticized for 2-3 years but not anymore)
- Acquired Domi for Galchenyuk, then eventually Anderson for Domi + 3rd
- Acquired Armia + 4th + 7th for eating Steve Masons's cap dump for just 1 year
- Acquired Byron from waivers
- Acquired Kulak for Taormina (AHL player that ended up being done shortly after)
- Acquired Thompson + 5th for a 4th round pick, then eventually traded him for another 5th
- Acquired 2nd + 3rd for damaged goods Andrew Shaw
- Acquired Scandella for 4th, then flipped him a few weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th
- Acquired Allen for 3rd, then extended him for a reasonable 2 years at 2.875 (0.930+ SV % since last year)
- Acquired Edmundson for a 5th then signed him for a reasonable 4 years at 3.5 (leads NHL with +18)
- Signed Toffoli and Chiarot as a UFA


He basically built a competitive NHL team for Pacioretty, Subban, Galchenyuk and peanuts (+ Sergachev who was their 9th OA pick)

Drouin-Suzuki-Anderson
Toffoli-Danault-Armia
Tatar-Byron-Perry

Chiarot-Weber
Edmundson-Petry
Kulak

Imagine with good drafting what they could have...


You don't like Gallagher extension? They just got 6 years out of him at 3.75, basically like it was to have Karlsson long term at 6.5. Price's AAV is really not ideal but that's what he was worth on reputation. Medias and even NHL players always mention him as the best goalie so unfortunately for them (and thankfully for us) he had to get paid. Again a bit like EK, this time in San Jose.

I wish Dorion could make moves like that. Bergevin + our drafting would be an insane duo. If Bergevin asset management, trades and signings were Dorion level, they'd easily be the worst team in the NHL, which is ultimately what they would need, to bottom out because I believe it's important to have a good core of homegrown players.

My argument is that on their own, those trades aren't exactly "bad", but they have poor vision in their totality. His teams are competitive but don't have any elite offensive potential. His team is built around a goaltender which in itself is a bad model. He's never addressed team needs. He had an elite defender, an elite winger, and a yet not bust 3rd overall centre, and has turned that into...well whatever they have right now. The teams he's built over the years are competitive to make the playoffs, but are rarely contenders.

 

[Beech]

remember when this was us
20-21 Season Tank Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

 

[Xspyrit]

My argument is that on their own, those trades aren't exactly "bad", but they have poor vision in their totality. His teams are competitive but don't have any elite offensive potential. His team is built around a goaltender which in itself is a bad model. He's never addressed team needs. He had an elite defender, an elite winger, and a yet not bust 3rd overall centre, and has turned that into...well whatever they have right now. The teams he's built over the years are competitive to make the playoffs, but are rarely contenders.

ok but how exactly do you you acquire "elite offensive potential"? It comes from the draft and it's exactly where they sucked for a while.

Bergevin has been trying hard... acquiring Drouin and Suzuki in trades, but also Tatar (61 pts in 68 GP last season), Anderson and Toffoli (9 and 12 goals so far this season)

Only forward they have to show from the draft table since 2008 is Gallagher. There was Galchenyuk too but Bergevin was able to transform that into Josh Anderson before AG27 value plummeted.

Also, this argument isn't true "His team is built around a goaltender", that's a very simplistic analysis

 

[2CHAINZ]

Hot Take - heard it here first

Pierre Dorion is going to be the GM of the Habs and Bergevin becomes Team President.

Dorion is going to be the one to trade Price and Weber and rebuild the Habs.

Will that be his new proudest day? Or will the day he trades Price and Weber be his second proudest day ?

 

[Tuna99]

Will that be his new proudest day? Or will the day he trades Price and Weber be his second proudest day ?

The guy is always working - filling out forms, on his phone, jinxing opposing goalies. Respect

 

[Ouroboros]

Nashville are using both Ben Harpur and Mark Borowiecki on their defense corps. They are flying under the radar a bit but they are in the mic for worst team in the league for sure.

Also weird how teams that have Matt Duchene in a key role just can't win games. Just a coincidence I suppose.

 

[Sensinitis]

Nashville are using both Ben Harpur and Mark Borowiecki on their defense corps. They are flying under the radar a bit but they are in the mic for worst team in the league for sure.

Also weird how teams that have Matt Duchene in a key role just can't win games. Just a coincidence I suppose.

Duchene, Boro and Harpur? Wow that’s a tremendous tank squad leadership group

 

[cudi]

Habs lose 6-3 in the new coaches debut. They'll need Price to be better than this if they wanna get better lol

 

[bicboi64]

ok but how exactly do you you acquire "elite offensive potential"? It comes from the draft and it's exactly where they sucked for a while.

Bergevin has been trying hard... acquiring Drouin and Suzuki in trades, but also Tatar (61 pts in 68 GP last season), Anderson and Toffoli (9 and 12 goals so far this season)

Only forward they have to show from the draft table since 2008 is Gallagher. There was Galchenyuk too but Bergevin was able to transform that into Josh Anderson before AG27 value plummeted.

Also, this argument isn't true "His team is built around a goaltender", that's a very simplistic analysis

You're right, elite offensive talent is usually from the draft, but chances to acquire established #1 centres or wingers have not been taken advantage of. They haven't had anyone as good as Pacioretty or Plekanec (who isn't exactly a #1c). Drouin may have been a highly drafted pick, but he had never performed at an elite level. Heck acquiring him using your best prospect who happens to be a puck moving defender, after losing your two best puck moving defenders in Subban and Markov shows how poor his vision is. Suzuki was a touted prospect as well and not exactly elite offensively in terms of potential.

As for the Price argument, I'd still stick by my argument mate. Price was signed for a gargantuan amount, an older #1 veteran defender was acquired for a younger #1 defender, in addition to trading away key prospects positionally/talent wise like Sergachev. Bergevin has built his team from the net out and done that rather poorly. Deals like the Toffoli signing were good, but after 9 years in, its just a hamster wheel of moves imo.

 

[bicboi64]

Also weird how teams that have Matt Duchene in a key role just can't win games. Just a coincidence I suppose.

He appeared as a dynamic forward for us for a few games and he's got a decent two way game, but he's never been an elite #1 centre or produced like one consistently. We definitely dodged a bullet imo by not keeping him

 

[bacon25]

It's a real shame it took the Sens 10 games to figure out how they wanted to play, because the standings could look a lot different. Poor Montreal and Calgary won't be getting the Sens bump like Vancouver did. Ottawa could be in a small way responsible for Travis Green's undoing since it was Ottawa that bloated the Canucks standing at the beginning of the year. Of course I am reaching on that one.