OT: Around the NHL 2021-22: Broken Culture Edition

[Zirakzigil]

I actually wonder if Malkin and other Russians basically say "f*** off, we're going to the Olympics" if the NHL pulls out. They already missed out on going in 2016 and I feel like some players may basically just tell their teams to screw themselves.

The real big brain solution here is for the IIHF to host Olympic hockey in NA.

China would throw a tantrum, they’d lose a ton of money from that. And the IOC is all about where the money is.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

What Boudreau has done is pretty special.

First time in 5 years the Canucks came back from a 3 goal deficit to win.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Yeah it's a legit question. They were pretty furious about the non-participation for years.

So...

Yea but they didn't have this potential weeks-long quarantine hanging over their heads if something goes awry.

Bottom line: competitors want to play. But if playing "extra" hockey in China means risking not playing at all for a month, well I don't blame players for being hesitant.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

iirc, they're saying guys who have tested positive within the past six months will have to go into a 4-5 week quarantine before heading to Beijing.

If that's true, we're absolutely getting no NHL participation. Unless guys tell the owners to shove it and go anyway. I'd imagine guys in the position to be at their first, or their last, will probably push the envelope the most.

 

[Extra Texture]

You know, for a guy whose actions say "he doesnt mind trying to fix a mistake", JR sure seems touchy about Jack Johnson.He really nailed his colors to the mast with that signing, making stupid intimations about Johnson's time under Tortorella.

The guy failed with Perron, Brassard, Reeves, Pearson and a number of other trades, and salvaged what he could for them when they went belly up. Why is it so hard to admit how wrong he was with this one player?

Hopefully the media presses him on these past decisions, and the only way he knows how to respond is to overpay for Pettersson, Matheson, Zucker or anyone else he made a big song and dance about bringing to Pittsburgh.

All Jack Johnson's ever gotten is chances. The dude's the poster boy of getting chances. He's a guy who should've been out of the league and playing in Switzerland or something about a decade ago.

I wonder if Cam Barker seethes at night, looking at Gudbranson and JJ, and wondering what he did wrong as a mostly bad third overall pick blueliner. He only got seven years, but the other two have parlayed being underwhelming or bad into a decade+ in the NHL.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Even Mario earlier in his career.

Goaltenders back then had zero set technique or school of thought coming up and just sorta flailed towards where they think the puck was going. We take the butterfly hybrid as simply the way the position is played. But it was barely a twinkle in the eye of Patty Roy at that point.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I was crying laughing so hard at his "old man outfit" skit.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Even Mario earlier in his career.

Goaltenders back then had zero set technique or school of thought coming up and just sorta flailed towards where they think the puck was going. We take the butterfly hybrid as simply the way the position is played. But it was barely a twinkle in the eye of Patty Roy at that point.

I can't think of 1 position that has evolved dramatically in any sport the way hockey goaltending has. Typically this was your guy who was the least athletic and partly psychotic personality. Dryden was the major anomaly

Roy really revolutionized the position. Brodeur refined it.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I can't think of 1 position that has evolved dramatically in any sport the way hockey goaltending has. Typically this was your guy who was the least athletic and partly psychotic personality. Dryden was the major anomaly

Roy really revolutionized the position. Brodeur refined it.

Completely agree. Honestly if you think about it it's a very "young" position.

I don't really consider what they were doing back then "goaltending." Like you said it was the crazy guy on the team that couldn't quite hack it as a skater.

 

[Al Smith]

Completely agree. Honestly if you think about it it's a very "young" position.

I don't really consider what they were doing back then "goaltending." Like you said it was the crazy guy on the team that couldn't quite hack it as a skater.

I don't know. The old saw was that the goalie was always the best skater on the team. Typically, the goalie was small and quick - think GMJR (who wasn't particularly good as a player either) or everybody's favorite flopper back in the day - panther-quick Denis Herron, or even Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr. Dryden was in fact the freak exception, with Darren Pang being the statistical outlier on the other end (I remember Mario almost laughing while he was undressing Panger). But yeah, at least the ones you heard about were all a little bit nuts. It's such a big difference in the game now, counterbalanced to some extent, but probably not completely, by the stick technology.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't know. The old saw was that the goalie was always the best skater on the team. Typically, the goalie was small and quick - think GMJR (who wasn't particularly good as a player either) or everybody's favorite flopper back in the day - panther-quick Denis Herron, or even Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr. Dryden was in fact the freak exception, with Darren Pang being the statistical outlier on the other end (I remember Mario almost laughing while he was undressing Panger). But yeah, at least the ones you heard about were all a little bit nuts. It's such a big difference in the game now, counterbalanced to some extent, but probably not completely, by the stick technology.

Great points. I admit I'm not nearly as much a student of the position as many so much respect for bringing the receipts.

To your last point... equipment in general, I'd say. Both for and against.

 

[Peat]

You know, for a guy whose actions say you "he doesnt mind trying to fix a mistake", JR sure seems touchy about Jack Johnson.He really nailed his colors to the mast with that signing, making stupid intimations about Johnson's time under Tortorella.

The guy failed with Perron, Brassard, Reeves, Pearson and a number of other trades, and salvaged what he could for them when they went belly up. Why is it so hard to admit how wrong he was with this one player?

Hopefully the media presses him on these past decisions, and the only way he knows how to respond is to overpay for Pettersson, Matheson, Zucker or anyone else he made a big song and dance about bringing to Pittsburgh.



I wonder if Cam Barker seethes at night, looking at Gudbranson and JJ, and wondering what he did wrong as a mostly bad third overall pick blueliner. He only got seven years, but the other two have parlayed being underwhelming or bad into a decade+ in the NHL.

There was a Yohe puff piece on Rutherford's legacy the other day where he said this about the JJ deal:

"Personally, I think Rutherford feels an enormous amount of affection for Johnson, who lost most of his career earnings because of his parents’ unforgivable behavior. I think Rutherford wanted to set him up for life financially."

Obviously that's not 100% definite truth, but it would fit just how tetchy he gets over it and the complete lack of hockey rationale.

 

[Al Smith]

Great points. I admit I'm not nearly as much as student of the position as many so much respect for bringing the receipts.

To your last point... equipment in general, I'd say. Both for and against.

I think some goalies still worship at the altar of St. Arturs Irbe for bringing Mr Stay Puff sized pads to the position

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There was a Yohe puff piece on Rutherford's legacy the other day where he said this about the JJ deal:

"Personally, I think Rutherford feels an enormous amount of affection for Johnson, who lost most of his career earnings because of his parents’ unforgivable behavior. I think Rutherford wanted to set him up for life financially."

Obviously that's not 100% definite truth, but it would fit just how tetchy he gets over it and the complete lack of hockey rationale.

I can understand that. I'm not a monster. What JJ's parents did and the scar it had to leave on his psyche is just... tough for me to gauge coming from such a supportive background. Something like that is literally impossible for me to fathom it's that gross. You also have to consider that the team JR was GMing had JJ's best buddy captaining it and he had past ties with JJ in Carolina. In some ways it almost had to feel like fate to him.

But... brass tacks... you just cannot make decisions at the highest levels of the league based on all that as borderline-cruel as it sounds. As bad off as JJ's situation is there are plenty of sad stories league-wide. Where was JR on those? Slippery slope etc.

EDIT: Also it has to be said -- it's Yohe. Dude loves the taste of boot. Grain of salt.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think guys like Malkin, Ovechkin, McDavid, Sid put up Gretzky/Lemieux silly numbers in the 80s, but I'm not sure the same can be said of Gretzky/Lemieux putting up the kinda numbers the aforementioned put up nowadays. Playing field is a lot more even nowadays than it was back then, both in terms of other skaters' athleticism and smarts, as well as the whole goalie situation.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think some goalies still worship at the altar of St. Arturs Irbe for bringing Mr Stay Puff sized pads to the position

Yeah the pre-05 lockout pads were getting pretty out of hand.

I remember Garth Snow's massive shoulder pads and five hole flap or whatever it was. Insane.

They all said that the inevitable cut-down would lead to a huge increase in injuries. Still waiting to see that pan out.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think guys like Malkin, Ovechkin, McDavid, Sid put up Gretzky/Lemieux silly numbers in the 80s, but I'm not sure the same can be said of Gretzky/Lemieux putting up the kinda numbers the aforementioned put up nowadays. Playing field is a lot more even nowadays than it was back then, both in terms of other skaters' athleticism and smarts, as well as the whole goalie situation.

For sure... and I adore Lemieux. Whole reason I got into hockey.

Hell just look at defensemen, alone. Nevermind goaltenders.

The difference between defenders now and even 05 is like... massive. If you can't skate you can GTFO in today's league.

 

[Al Smith]

I think guys like Malkin, Ovechkin, McDavid, Sid put up Gretzky/Lemieux silly numbers in the 80s, but I'm not sure the same can be said of Gretzky/Lemieux putting up the kinda numbers the aforementioned put up nowadays. Playing field is a lot more even nowadays than it was back then, both in terms of other skaters' athleticism and smarts, as well as the whole goalie situation.

Mario near age 40 put up lots of points/game (too lazy to look it up) in the DPE. He would have dominated in any era. I’m also pretty sure Gretzky would be an average Third line center today.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

For sure... and I adore Lemieux. Whole reason I got into hockey.

Hell just look at defensemen, alone. Nevermind goaltenders.

The difference between defenders now and even 05 is like... massive. If you can't skate you can GTFO in today's league.

Yeah. Wayne's big advantage was he took care of himself so he skated circles around guys, and his hockey IQ was off the charts. Mario was the one who got by on athleticism--lord knows he didn't take care of himself with the smoking, lack of training, and that kinda thing.

I'd take Mario 101 times out of 100 between the two at their peak, but I do think Wayne probably has an easier time if the two were transported to today's game if I'm being terribly honest.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah. Wayne's big advantage was he took care of himself so he skated circles around guys, and his hockey IQ was off the charts. Mario was the one who got by on athleticism--lord knows he didn't take care of himself with the smoking, lack of training, and that kinda thing.

I'd take Mario 101 times out of 100 between the two at their peak, but I do think Wayne probably has an easier time if the two were transported to today's game if I'm being terribly honest.

I think there is a healthy debate to be had, there.

I know I'm biased but I still take Mario. Just based on what he still did super late in his career... when he could make it out on the ice.

Then again Wayne was putting up pretty great numbers til the bitter end in a much more modern league from his prime. So... dunno.

Like I said good "history of the game/what if" debate to be had, there.

EDIT: One thing for sure we can all agree on... the likes of Crosby/OV/Geno/McDrai would f***ing annihilate the old league.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Mario near age 40 put up lots of points/game (too lazy to look it up) in the DPE. He would have dominated in any era. I’m also pretty sure Gretzky would be an average Third line center today.

Milan Hejduk was a near 100pt guy when Mario put up huge numbers at 38. Bertuzzi too. Some dude named Glen Murray put up 90+. Let's not act like 2002 hockey was a bunch of 1-0 games.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Looks like the league is going to make Carolina play without four roster spots filled tomorrow due to COVID protocol.

Well... really without three spots since one casualty is Jordan Staal.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think there is a healthy debate to be had, there.

I know I'm biased but I still take Mario. Just based on what he still did super late in his career... when he could make it out on the ice.

Then again Wayne was putting up pretty great numbers til the bitter end in a much more modern league from his prime. So... dunno.

Like I said good "history of the game/what if" debate to be had, there.

EDIT: One thing for sure we can all agree on... the likes of Crosby/OV/Geno/McDrai would f***ing annihilate the old league.

There's also something to be said about the advances in gear technology. It'd be fun to see what Mario or Wayne could do with these crazy ass composite sticks or ultra light skates.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I don't know. The old saw was that the goalie was always the best skater on the team. Typically, the goalie was small and quick - think GMJR (who wasn't particularly good as a player either) or everybody's favorite flopper back in the day - panther-quick Denis Herron, or even Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr. Dryden was in fact the freak exception, with Darren Pang being the statistical outlier on the other end (I remember Mario almost laughing while he was undressing Panger). But yeah, at least the ones you heard about were all a little bit nuts. It's such a big difference in the game now, counterbalanced to some extent, but probably not completely, by the stick technology.

I play net, so it's always cool to talk about the position!

I never really believed that the "goalie is the best skater on the team". Do you really think that Grant Fuhr was a better skater than Wayne or Kurri? Was Bill Ranford a better skater than Ray Borque?

Equipment played a HUGE role in this too. I used to have a pair of the old school Arters Irbe pads. They had zero above the knee protection, so going down on your knees was done only with the pads facing down on the ice vs the pads going vertical like you see now. I still do the paddle down technique occasionally because it's been very hard to eliminate that muscle memory in certain situations.

When goalie manufacturers came out with the advanced leg pads they had the knee protection PLUS the landing gear so you could butterfly more easily and the pads went vertical so you could cover more along the ice.

So while shooters got more whippy sticks, the goalies got better protection and got to cover more net. Hell even the goalie masks have gotten tremendously better so goalies don't flinch anymore.