Around Hockey XXIII (All Non-Jackets Hockey talk in here)

[LetsGOJackets!!]

It sure seemed like they identified Bill Zito as quite the hockey mind. There was just no way for Jarmo to promote him any further without giving him his own job.

Jarmo takes Davidson's vacancy, Zito becomes GM two years ago? As presented Zito negotiated contracts - so he was "the hammer"? Looking at Florida's roster Zito is quite happy with the outcome.

 

[majormajor]

Jarmo takes Davidson's vacancy, Zito becomes GM two years ago? As presented Zito negotiated contracts - so he was "the hammer"? Looking at Florida's roster Zito is quite happy with the outcome.

Zito was the head of the hammer, but it was wielded by Jarmo (and our supposed savior JD seemed to support using it).

The reshuffling you describe would have made sense if Jarmo was a JD like figure, but he isn't an old grand statesman. He's more of a mastermind, and not old enough. Heck Ken Holland is old enough and he just didn't want to go upstairs to make room for Stevie Y, he wanted to keep being GM so he went to Edmonton. Jarmo would never give up his job.

 

[majormajor]

Steve Y comes in with Hedman, Stamkos, Johnson & Killorn, (talks Stamkos into staying in TB), hits on draft picks Kucherov (58)2011, Vasilevskiy (19) 2012, Palat (208) 2011, Cirelli (72), 2015 and Point (79) 2014. 2017 trades Drouin to get Sergachev.. Signs Anton Stralman (former CBJ) and he plays great for them signs undrafted Yanni Gourde

90% of what Stevie Y contributed was just in drafting Kucherov, Point, and Vasilevskiy, which is quite a lot by itself. Even with a $98m cap hit it is questionable if Stamkos is worth his cap hit to them, and the NMCs doled out to Johnson, Killorn, and Palat have negated some of the value in having them.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Zito was the head of the hammer, but it was wielded by Jarmo (and our supposed savior JD seemed to support using it).

The reshuffling you describe would have made sense if Jarmo was a JD like figure, but he isn't an old grand statesman. He's more of a mastermind, and not old enough. Heck Ken Holland is old enough and he just didn't want to go upstairs to make room for Stevie Y, he wanted to keep being GM so he went to Edmonton. Jarmo would never give up his job.

Good points. Just pointing out we had good parts, & pieces - just didn't put the puzzle together yet. I do have faith. Win and they will come.

 

[majormajor]

I don't see a single Montreal forward who could play in the top 6 in Tampa. .

The odds sure do look long. But this part isn't right.

Have a look at the 5v5 scoring if you want to talk about "top 6" and "topline" and other designations that are clearly specific to 5v5. Stamkos is a crap 5v5 player at this point. Suzuki has outscored him at 5v5 in the regular season and playoffs, and he's a much better two-way guy. Killorn, Cirelli, and Palat aren't special either.

Cirelli, Stamkos, and Killorn averaged a pitiful 15 points in the regular season at 5v5. Not a single one of them would have made it into Montreal's top 6 5v5 scorers!

Tampa is a gritty playoff style team in their own right and they have Kucherov and Point, two of the greatest playoff scorers of our era. Add Hedman and Vasi and you've got a great team already. Their mid depth guys are getting overrated.

 

[EspenK]

90% of what Stevie Y contributed was just in drafting Kucherov, Point, and Vasilevskiy, which is quite a lot by itself. Even with a $98m cap hit it is questionable if Stamkos is worth his cap hit to them, and the NMCs doled out to Johnson, Killorn, and Palat have negated some of the value in having them.

Even with all those question marks it is amazing what Tampa Bay has accomplished.

 

[koteka]

My take on Tampa:

They had some stars. St.Louis, Stamkos. They traded one and kept one.

They built an amazing culture. This is so important.

- Part of that culture is guys wanted to stay and took discounts.

- Part of that culture was that new guys were welcomed and there was no jealousy if they had success.

- Winning became paramount. Then, shifting slightly but importantly, winning Cups became paramount.

They drafted well. And importantly, guys they drafted like Point were allowed to shine. (Do you think Point would have succeeded in Winnipeg?)

They went for it when they thought they had a chance, adding needed pieces like Coleman, Goodrow, and Savard. And trading Drouin for Sergachev.

They were savvy enough to deal with salary cap rules.

They are sitting with a hand that includes the best defenseman, best goalie, and some top forwards. But it wasn’t magic. Or state taxes. Smart decisions got them there.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Amazing two year turnaround for Jon Cooper. Was almost seen as a net negative for that Tampa team after getting swept (and after getting close but continually falling short after his Calder run at the helm of the Crunch) to a Cup last year and now three wins away from going back-to-back.

I do think the cap/LTIR thing needs revisited - maybe some sort of 5% buffer for the playoffs or whatever (i.e. if the regular season salary cap is $81.5m and you use LTIR and whatnot to stay under, your roster in the playoffs can then go up to $85.575m or something like that). Of course, the GMs will never sign off on that because they will happily use that loophole when it becomes convenient for their team.

Tampa looks like they have potentially 5 HOFers from this group - Stamkos, Kucherov, Point, Hedman, and Vasilevskiy. On top of that, Killorn is nearly a point per game this postseason. McDonagh is probably a top pair guy on, what, 20 teams in the league? They plucked Yanni Gourde from the undrafted ranks.

I mean, I get "never say never" but that's just a lot of fire power for Montreal to overcome. This Lightning team is better than when the Jackets played them in 2019. You're talking about one of the all-time great teams in the history of the cap era, imo.

 

[majormajor]

Amazing two year turnaround for Jon Cooper. Was almost seen as a net negative for that Tampa team after getting swept (and after getting close but continually falling short after his Calder run at the helm of the Crunch) to a Cup last year and now three wins away from going back-to-back.

I do think the cap/LTIR thing needs revisited - maybe some sort of 5% buffer for the playoffs or whatever (i.e. if the regular season salary cap is $81.5m and you use LTIR and whatnot to stay under, your roster in the playoffs can then go up to $85.575m or something like that). Of course, the GMs will never sign off on that because they will happily use that loophole when it becomes convenient for their team.

Tampa looks like they have potentially 5 HOFers from this group - Stamkos, Kucherov, Point, Hedman, and Vasilevskiy. On top of that, Killorn is nearly a point per game this postseason. McDonagh is probably a top pair guy on, what, 20 teams in the league? They plucked Yanni Gourde from the undrafted ranks.

I mean, I get "never say never" but that's just a lot of fire power for Montreal to overcome. This Lightning team is better than when the Jackets played them in 2019. You're talking about one of the all-time great teams in the history of the cap era, imo.

They really took that 2019 beatdown to heart.

Early in the 2019-20 season the Bolts lost a lot of games while they messed around with their playstyle. They dumped out a lot of the rush-happy regular-season-style stuff they were doing and embraced a harder edged game. It was a rough transition but they came out of it with a team that is damn near unbeatable when it matters the most. Toronto and Colorado should be taking notes but I don't think they get it yet.

 

[majormajor]

They drafted well. And importantly, guys they drafted like Point were allowed to shine. (Do you think Point would have succeeded in Winnipeg?)
.

I can't imagine anything holding Brayden Point back, not in any town.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The odds sure do look long. But this part isn't right.

Have a look at the 5v5 scoring if you want to talk about "top 6" and "topline" and other designations that are clearly specific to 5v5. Stamkos is a crap 5v5 player at this point. Suzuki has outscored him at 5v5 in the regular season and playoffs, and he's a much better two-way guy. Killorn, Cirelli, and Palat aren't special either.

Cirelli, Stamkos, and Killorn averaged a pitiful 15 points in the regular season at 5v5. Not a single one of them would have made it into Montreal's top 6 5v5 scorers!

Tampa is a gritty playoff style team in their own right and they have Kucherov and Point, two of the greatest playoff scorers of our era. Add Hedman and Vasi and you've got a great team already. Their mid depth guys are getting overrated.

Last time I checked, PP goals and points counted. I could be wrong though.

Keep grasping at straws. The "built for the playoffs" Habs don't belong on the same ice with Tampa.

Stamkos (who sucks according to you) stands a decent chance to be a Hall of Famer. 2 way Suzuki had 0 shots on goal and was a -3 last night. Stamkos had well over 130 goals by the time he hit 22 years old. Suzuki will have 28.

 

[koteka]

I can't imagine anything holding Brayden Point back, not in any town.

There is no way to ever know, but I believe being in the correct environment is important in the career development of professional athletes. Some guys might thrive no matter what, but other guys need the right team at the right time. Tampa might be fantastic at drafting or they might be fantastic at drafting the right guys for their team or they might be fantastic at developing the guys they draft. We’ll never really know which is the case. But they do have a culture where guys who aren’t top 10 draft picks play like they should have been too 10 draft picks.

 

[koteka]

double post

 

[DarkandStormy]

Stamkos (who sucks according to you) stands a decent chance to be a Hall of Famer.

Stamkos has, as of now, the 17th-highest goals per game average in the regular season in league history. Pretty sure the 16 guys ahead of him are all in the HOF or on their way (Ovehckin). He's pretty easily going to surpass 500 career goals, despite losing 60+ games to a lockout and covid and 100+ more to serious injuries. 45 players have scored 500 career goals in the NHL and 42 are HOF eligible (Ovechkin and Marleau are still active and Jagr is not yet eligible...all three are getting in). Only 5 of that group of 45 aren't in the Hall...Keith Tkachuk, Pat Verbeek, Pierre Turgeon, Jeremy Roenick, and Peter Bondra.

It's a similar situation when you get to 1,000 career points, which Stamkos will almost certainly hit if he stays healthy for a few more years (and he's only 31 - he very well could have 4-5 more pretty productive years).

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Stamkos has, as of now, the 17th-highest goals per game average in the regular season in league history. Pretty sure the 16 guys ahead of him are all in the HOF or on their way (Ovehckin). He's pretty easily going to surpass 500 career goals, despite losing 60+ games to a lockout and covid and 100+ more to serious injuries. 45 players have scored 500 career goals in the NHL and 42 are HOF eligible (Ovechkin and Marleau are still active and Jagr is not yet eligible...all three are getting in). Only 5 of that group of 45 aren't in the Hall...Keith Tkachuk, Pat Verbeek, Pierre Turgeon, Jeremy Roenick, and Peter Bondra.

It's a similar situation when you get to 1,000 career points, which Stamkos will almost certainly hit if he stays healthy for a few more years (and he's only 31 - he very well could have 4-5 more pretty productive years).

I actually had originally put "will be" in the Hall of Fame and edited it. The use of short term stats to "prove" that some Johnny-come-lately being better than Stamkos was absurd.

Thanks for those stats. Stamkos looks like a mortal lock. His 2 Rocket Richard Trophies aren't going to hurt him either. But he won't be in the Game 7 of playoffs wing, that's for sure.

 

[rotsbu]

Last time I checked, PP goals and points counted. I could be wrong though.

Keep grasping at straws. The "built for the playoffs" Habs don't belong on the same ice with Tampa.

Stamkos (who sucks according to you) stands a decent chance to be a Hall of Famer. 2 way Suzuki had 0 shots on goal and was a -3 last night. Stamkos had well over 130 goals by the time he hit 22 years old. Suzuki will have 28.

I don't think it's that the Habs are not "built for the playoffs"...it's that the Lightning are built even better for the playoffs. Tampa's got world-class players at G, D, and F but have grit and play a heavy game at the same time.

 

[majormajor]

Last time I checked, PP goals and points counted. I could be wrong though.

Keep grasping at straws. The "built for the playoffs" Habs don't belong on the same ice with Tampa.

Stamkos (who sucks according to you) stands a decent chance to be a Hall of Famer. 2 way Suzuki had 0 shots on goal and was a -3 last night. Stamkos had well over 130 goals by the time he hit 22 years old. Suzuki will have 28.

-- PP goals count in the sport of ice hockey, sure. It just has nothing to do with what makes someone a good 5v5 player. You're not a better fit for the 2nd line just because you scored a bunch of goals on the PP.

-- There's no need for straws to grasp at, you were just wrong. I never debated the fact that Tampa is better, though I can see why you would like to pretend that is what we are talking about. I'm sure that you're a smart guy but you argue like I did when I was twelve.

-- Stamkos is still a great PP scorer but isn't the super dynamic player he used to be. The injuries have done a number on him.

 

[majormajor]

Stamkos has, as of now, the 17th-highest goals per game average in the regular season in league history. Pretty sure the 16 guys ahead of him are all in the HOF or on their way (Ovehckin). He's pretty easily going to surpass 500 career goals, despite losing 60+ games to a lockout and covid and 100+ more to serious injuries. 45 players have scored 500 career goals in the NHL and 42 are HOF eligible (Ovechkin and Marleau are still active and Jagr is not yet eligible...all three are getting in). Only 5 of that group of 45 aren't in the Hall...Keith Tkachuk, Pat Verbeek, Pierre Turgeon, Jeremy Roenick, and Peter Bondra.

It's a similar situation when you get to 1,000 career points, which Stamkos will almost certainly hit if he stays healthy for a few more years (and he's only 31 - he very well could have 4-5 more pretty productive years).

Yeah I'm not debating that Stamkos has had a fantastic career, or that he was once one of the league's best players. He's just not nearly as good as he used to be. There might not be a single more overrated player for those that just count points and don't pay attention to how they play. But go on, tell me about his career stats.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

-- PP goals count in the sport of ice hockey, sure. It just has nothing to do with what makes someone a good 5v5 player. You're not a better fit for the 2nd line just because you scored a bunch of goals on the PP.

-- There's no need for straws to grasp at, you were just wrong. I never debated the fact that Tampa is better, though I can see why you would like to pretend that is what we are talking about. I'm sure that you're a smart guy but you argue like I did when I was twelve.

-- Stamkos is still a great PP scorer but isn't the super dynamic player he used to be. The injuries have done a number on him.

Funny. Your bolded is similar to a 12 year old's response in an argument. Go figure.

Using 5v5 stats over an abbreviated season (Stamkos played 38 games) to "prove" that a future HHOF is inferior 5v5 to some kid who doesn't have 30 career regular season goals is silly.

 

[Viqsi]

Funny. Your bolded is similar to a 12 year old's response in an argument. Go figure.

Using 5v5 stats over an abbreviated season (Stamkos played 38 games) to "prove" that a future HHOF is inferior 5v5 to some kid who doesn't have 30 career regular season goals is silly.

It is if you're talking about overall careers, but if you're talking about right now, it's potentially valid.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

It is if you're talking about overall careers, but if you're talking about right now, it's potentially valid.

I just looked at the numbers on nhl.com. I assumed that Suzuki's numbers were better than Stamkos based on what someone said. They weren't.

Stamkos ES points reg season 18 in 38 games=.47 ES PPG
Suzunki ES points reg season 26 in 56 games=.46 ES PPg
NHL Stats
NHL Stats

Playoffs Suzuki ES points 8/18
Stamkos ES points 6/19

Suzuki and Stamkos were even during the regular season and the playoffs numbers can't be used to "prove" anything.

So, it's not valid right now. It was wrong. Flat out.

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Three Avalanche in the top twelve. One thing that was of interest is Adam Fox of the Rangers came in tied for thirteenth, but no Artemi Panarin anywhere.

 

[koteka]

Three Avalanche in the top twelve. One thing that was of interest is Adam Fox of the Rangers came in tied for thirteenth, but no Artemi Panarin anywhere.

Biggest surprise to me is Saros finishing 11th with 6 voters voting for him.

 

[Fro]

Yeesh

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Habs have now scored 2 goals in the series and both have been deflected off either a Tampa player(s) or stick.