Armchair GMs: What moves would you make to maximize the roster?

[Dotter]

As I'm sure it must be abundantly clear to any outside observer that I haven't proposed anything even close to that, coupled with your repeated attempts to elicit reactions through condescension, I'm left with nothing but to believe that you are doing something that rhymes with schmolling. Lost all desire to interact with you in any way.

Congratulations, you've 'won'!

That was tongue in cheek.

On a serous note, it's just not feasible for a team to trade a top2 defensman when they are looking to make the playoffs and have a decent winning record. Especially when you factor in that player already has playoff pedigree and is a cup champion.

Not to sound like a troll, but do you realize how many teams there are currently in the NHL who would like to beef up their top 2 (or even top 4) on defense? Wings/Holland have ample competition. Selling teams know this. Tatar is a great player, but he's not top2 defensman worthy in this market. Larkin isn't elite top dman trade worthy either, but he's your best chance (packaged up in a deal) to acquire the top guy that can truly soften the blow of losing Lidstrom -- but honestly, even that is unlikely.

For the record, yes I would trade Larkin for the right top guy. But I can guarantee you if you are not happy with Holland now, you'll hate him after he trades the assets it'll take to get the guy we need.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Oh, okay.

Well it's kinda simple. Nashville can afford Shea Weber and still afford to ice a good competitive hockey team because they drafted top 11 overall 4 times the past 8 years. some of those stud players are still on ELC. Seth Jones cap hit, for example, is $925,000 this year.

Seth Jones would be our 2nd best defenseman (or our best dman since Kronwall has been slumping). He was drafted 4th overall. Wings never had a 4th overall pick since the stone age.

Despite that, Nashville were still eliminated in the 1st round last year just as Detroit was. So despite picking top 11 numberous times, having stud franchise Dmen on ELC, and affording Shea Webers' 7.8 cap hit.... they have proven nothing more than Detroit.

Wings/Holland don't look so bad when you put things into real-life perspective, huh? Of course one could point to their .500 10 game start with a new coach/system/players/and $20 million sidelined injured players and say..... "Yup, Kenny Holland Suckszzz da ArZZZ!!!, LooK at thAt terribadz recordsz!!!"

we're talking about hollands ability compared to the rest of the league at finding a top pairing dman through any and every available means

so if nashville got seth jones 4th overall, where did they draft roman josi?

as far as your top 11 draft picks only only 2009, 2013 and 2014 did they finish outside the playoffs and thus earn that top 11 pick(09 and 14 in fact being 11th overall).

in 2008 they played us in the playoffs and got that pick via trade with the islanders vis florida again via trade(moving up in the draft is something KH is not banned from doing)

I am not so sure having Seth Jones on an ELC is the only reason why the Preds can afford shea weber

instead of blindly responding to every posts with rage look at what i said first, that KH for the last 8-10 years(taking into account 2 year prior to lidstrom leaving as everyone and their dog knew was going to happen) has been unable to find a top pairing dman using ANY of the available means(any meaning any one you choose) and its not because we didnt draft top 5 once or because every single NHL trade for the past 35 years for a top pairing dman has been for the equivalent of nyquist plus tatar plus sheahan plus mrazek plus larkin plus mantha plus 15 first rd picks or whatever other bull has been spewed in these forums or because no such player could ever exist outside of a lottery pick or trading away your entire roster

so this has nothing to do with our record the first ten games, a new coach or an injured datsyuk or green plus scrubs(quincey, franzen and richards)

it is and has been an issue for a very long time(almost a decade) and by now KH's genius should have been able to resolve it

 

[Dotter]

we're talking about hollands ability compared to the rest of the league at finding a top pairing dman through any and every available means

Any means available? Like calling up St Louis and offering them Larkin+Mrazek+1st for Bouwmeester?

Or do you mean within reason? Because I am sure Ken Holland can get a warm body that can play capable defense with those assets. But I doubt you'll be too please with "any means available" at the end of the day like you're dancing to right now.

so if nashville got seth jones 4th overall, where did they draft roman josi?

Fire HÃ¥kan Andersson? I mean isn't he suppose to be over there finding these guys?

as far as your top 11 draft picks only only 2009, 2013 and 2014 did they finish outside the playoffs and thus earn that top 11 pick(09 and 14 in fact being 11th overall).

in 2008 they played us in the playoffs and got that pick via trade with the islanders vis florida again via trade(moving up in the draft is something KH is not banned from doing)

Ken Holland filled the cupboards faster trading down. But yeah, trading up could be fun too. Not sure what it will take to get that 4th overall pick from Nashville, tho-

I am not so sure having Seth Jones on an ELC is the only reason why the Preds can afford shea weber

I said it wasn't. Filip Forsberg comes to mind with his $894,167 cap hit.

instead of blindly responding to every posts with rage look at what i said first, that KH for the last 8-10 years(taking into account 2 year prior to lidstrom leaving as everyone and their dog knew was going to happen) has been unable to find a top pairing dman using ANY of the available means(any meaning any one you choose) and its not because we didnt draft top 5 once or because every single NHL trade for the past 35 years for a top pairing dman has been for the equivalent of nyquist plus tatar plus sheahan plus mrazek plus larkin plus mantha plus 15 first rd picks or whatever other bull has been spewed in these forums or because no such player could ever exist outside of a lottery pick or trading away your entire roster

And in another post I put together a comprehensive list of dman Holland went hard after and whiffed out on. From reports at the time, he even offered to overpay and the trading team took less from someone else. I mean, if you offer more and the team takes less from someone else, what is he suppose to do outside of violence?

so this has nothing to do with our record the first ten games, a new coach or an injured datsyuk or green plus scrubs(quincey, franzen and richards)

it is and has been an issue for a very long time(almost a decade) and by now KH's genius should have been able to resolve it

1. Jiri Fischer, at the age of 25, 10 years ago this month went down with an unforeseen heart condition
2. Rafalski retired early due to knee issues
3. Lidstrom wasn't sure when he was going to retire, Holland wanted to try and save cap space for him

Your hindsight is wonderfully 20/20 tho!

Summary:

1. Ken Holland failed to hire better scouts. He might need to start looking at firing some guys (Tyler Wright (the guy who found Larkin) and Hakan Andersson (the guy who found Zetterberg/Datsyuk) and replace them with guys who can find Roman Josi types.

That would solve one of your issues.

2. Ken Holland needs to up his overpaying, by trying to overpay even more. This means Larkin and Mrazek should be on the trade block now.

That would solve your 2nd issue

3. Ken Holland needs to find a new way to circumvent the cap and talking with Mike Illitch about getting more money to offer players like Suter when they become available. Mike Illitch whiffed on the Suter deal because he didn't go all-in on the initial offer. Mike Ilitch trying to wheel-and-deal may have cost them, but I doubt he had any real interest in Detroit anyhow.

Ken Holland needs to find a way to clear about $12 million cap space per year. And have about $250 million available for the next FA for a nice bonus. That means Datsyuk should be asked to retire and no raises for the kids.

That would solve your issue #3

Do you have a "Armchair GM" plan you'd like to share or would you prefer to post stuff above like, ala:

JUST FIX IT!!!11!!

 

[InjuredChoker]

Your underlining theme is very predictable. Every accomplishment the franchise has had is because it fell into his lap; every snag the franchise has faced is due to failed GMing.

Ken Holland was Director of Amateur Scouting in 1987 for the DRWs. Lidstrom was drafted in 1989. Ken Holland was promoted to assistant GM in 1994. Wings won the cup in 97 and 98. Ken Holland became General Manager in 1997.

holland was western scout when lidström was drafted.

neil smith was the director of amateur scouting.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

​

Any means available? Like calling up St Louis and offering them Larkin+Mrazek+1st for Bouwmeester?

Or do you mean within reason? Because I am sure Ken Holland can get a warm body that can play capable defense with those assets. But I doubt you'll be too please with "any means available" at the end of the day like you're dancing to right now.



Fire HÃ¥kan Andersson? I mean isn't he suppose to be over there finding these guys?



Ken Holland filled the cupboards faster trading down. But yeah, trading up could be fun too. Not sure what it will take to get that 4th overall pick from Nashville, tho-



I said it wasn't. Filip Forsberg comes to mind with his $894,167 cap hit.




And in another post I put together a comprehensive list of dman Holland went hard after and whiffed out on. From reports at the time, he even offered to overpay and the trading team took less from someone else. I mean, if you offer more and the team takes less from someone else, what is he suppose to do outside of violence?



1. Jiri Fischer, at the age of 25, 10 years ago this month went down with an unforeseen heart condition
2. Rafalski retired early due to knee issues
3. Lidstrom wasn't sure when he was going to retire, Holland wanted to try and save cap space for him

Your hindsight is wonderfully 20/20 tho!

Summary:

1. Ken Holland failed to hire better scouts. He might need to start looking at firing some guys (Tyler Wright (the guy who found Larkin) and Hakan Andersson (the guy who found Zetterberg/Datsyuk) and replace them with guys who can find Roman Josi types.

That would solve one of your issues.

2. Ken Holland needs to up his overpaying, by trying to overpay even more. This means Larkin and Mrazek should be on the trade block now.

That would solve your 2nd issue

3. Ken Holland needs to find a new way to circumvent the cap and talking with Mike Illitch about getting more money to offer players like Suter when they become available. Mike Illitch whiffed on the Suter deal because he didn't go all-in on the initial offer. Mike Ilitch trying to wheel-and-deal may have cost them, but I doubt he had any real interest in Detroit anyhow.

Ken Holland needs to find a way to clear about $12 million cap space per year. And have about $250 million available for the next FA for a nice bonus. That means Datsyuk should be asked to retire and no raises for the kids.

That would solve your issue #3

Do you have a "Armchair GM" plan you'd like to share or would you prefer to post stuff above like, ala:

JUST FIX IT!!!11!!

I am sorry I think I have figured it out

KH has not been able for a decade to find a long term top pairing dman(like i have said about a dozen times now and i shouldnt need to define what a top pairing dman is) because no other team has been able to either outside of a lottery pick or trading for a guy like flip forsberg in order to keep their cap down so as to be able to afford a 10 million dollar dman and ignoring the fact their best dmen is neither that lottery pick or 10 million dollar guy but in fact their 2008 2nd rd pick AND in reality KH did try to accomplish this feat within the last decade by

- signing 34 year old raflaski in 2007
- and drafting fisher in 1998(has their been a second 1998 in the last ten years i slept through)

again the last ten years KH has not been able to find a suitable long term top pairing dman via the draft, trading up in the draft, through trade or free agency despite the fact so many other clubs have been able to while also maintaining a competitive roster as good or better then detroits(meaning we dont own the market on how to do things)

 

[The Zermanator]

​

I am sorry I think I have figured it out

KH has not been able for a decade to find a long term top pairing dman(like i have said about a dozen times now and i shouldnt need to define what a top pairing dman is) because no other team has been able to either outside of a lottery pick or trading for a guy like flip forsberg in order to keep their cap down so as to be able to afford a 10 million dollar dman and ignoring the fact their best dmen is neither that lottery pick or 10 million dollar guy but in fact their 2008 2nd rd pick AND in reality KH did try to accomplish this feat within the last decade by

- signing 34 year old raflaski in 2007
- and drafting fisher in 1998(has their been a second 1998 in the last ten years i slept through)

again the last ten years KH has not been able to find a suitable long term top pairing dman via the draft, trading up in the draft, through trade or free agency despite the fact so many other clubs have been able to while also maintaining a competitive roster as good or better then detroits(meaning we dont own the market on how to do things)

Don't even bother, man. You're just a 'Holland-hater'.

 

[Dotter]

(meaning we dont own the market on how to do things)

Who exactly said that?

I gave you the options on how Ken Holland could find one, but I'm not so sure you'd be happy if he really followed through with it.

ALL these other teams that "by any means necessary" are either better at drafting, have cap space/owner willing to spend, or premium assets to trade up for.

Red Wings now have an asset to possibly trade up next draft, maybe even in the top 10 for Larkin. Heck, maybe even get the 8th or 9th pick if Holland throws in his 1st along with Larkin.

Hopefully he does that and it makes you very happy. Hopefully by then Wings will have fired all their scouts and hire better ones who can actually find those Josi's you seek.

Don't even bother, man. You're just a 'Holland-hater'.

Give criticism where criticism is due. Holland took this team through 2 eras of dominant hockey without top 10 picks. This is the start of his 3rd era. It could bomb or he could pull it off. It's 50/50 at this point, but it isn't going to happen with the snap of a finger... especially without picks that can land you Toews, Kane, Doughty, and etc..

The only thing Ken has failed at to this point in my view is not having the scouting personnel to draft those Duncan Keiths and Shea Webers. Whiffing out on Suter is more Mike Ilitch's fault than Holland and not severely overpaying to acquire a slumping Myers, or a good but not elite top 2 dman in Bouwmeester. Either are hardly a Lidstrom replacement, but then again, nobody is.

Would you suggest the primary problem thus far is poor scouting?

 

[Pavels Dog]

​

I am sorry I think I have figured it out

KH has not been able for a decade to find a long term top pairing dman(like i have said about a dozen times now and i shouldnt need to define what a top pairing dman is) because no other team has been able to either outside of a lottery pick or trading for a guy like flip forsberg in order to keep their cap down so as to be able to afford a 10 million dollar dman and ignoring the fact their best dmen is neither that lottery pick or 10 million dollar guy but in fact their 2008 2nd rd pick AND in reality KH did try to accomplish this feat within the last decade by

- signing 34 year old raflaski in 2007
- and drafting fisher in 1998(has their been a second 1998 in the last ten years i slept through)

again the last ten years KH has not been able to find a suitable long term top pairing dman via the draft, trading up in the draft, through trade or free agency despite the fact so many other clubs have been able to while also maintaining a competitive roster as good or better then detroits(meaning we dont own the market on how to do things)

I think Dekeyser could handle top-pairing minutes for sure. It's just that he is better on the left side and our 2nd pairing needs him. So that's one suitable long-term top pairing d-man via free agency imo.

 

[Dotter]

Would anyone here trade Larkin straight across for Seth Jones?

I doubt Nashville would bite even though they could use a center like Larkin. But it would be interesting to see from Detroit fans perspective.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Would anyone here trade Larkin straight across for Seth Jones?

I doubt Nashville would bite even though they could use a center like Larkin. But it would be interesting to see from Detroit fans perspective.

Lateral move, fills one hole opens up another

 

[Dotter]

Lateral move, fills one hole opens up another

Top 6 centers are hard to find. Defenseman like Seth Jones are even harder to find.

The Larkin hole would be easier to fill

 

[Pavels Dog]

Top 6 centers are hard to find. Defenseman like Seth Jones are even harder to find.

The Larkin hole would be easier to fill

If that's true, I'd rather trade some other top 6 center instead of Larkin. If Svechnikov really pans out and looks like a top 6 C, maybe then we can trade him for that #1D.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Top 6 centers are hard to find. Defenseman like Seth Jones are even harder to find.

The Larkin hole would be easier to fill

that would be my reasoning to pull the trigger on that deal.

 

[Dotter]

If that's true, I'd rather trade some other top 6 center instead of Larkin. If Svechnikov really pans out and looks like a top 6 C, maybe then we can trade him for that #1D.

I'm not too high on Svechnikov. Then again, I wasn't too high on Sheahan either and he's turned out to be a good NHL centerman.

Too early to say if Svechnikov has trade value, but he ain't getting you Seth Jones anytime soon, if ever.

Wings one true asset that will get any GM to listen is Dylan Larkin. And he isn't getting you a Drew Doughty level of dman. NASH are stacked on D and thin on Center.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm not too high on Svechnikov. Then again, I wasn't too high on Sheahan either and he's turned out to be a good NHL centerman.

Too early to say if Svechnikov has trade value, but he ain't getting you Seth Jones anytime soon, if ever.

Wings one true asset that will get any GM to listen is Dylan Larkin. And he isn't getting you a Drew Doughty level of dman. NASH are stacked on D and thin on Center.

Well if we trade Larkin we have to replace him ASAP. I'd rather just trade the guy we are targeting as a Larkin-replacement (since those are easier to find in your opinion). If Svechnikov doesn't pan out we will look terrible down the middle in 2-3 years if we trade Larkin, unless we strike gold in the draft again.

 

[Dotter]

Well if we trade Larkin we have to replace him ASAP. I'd rather just trade the guy we are targeting as a Larkin-replacement (since those are easier to find in your opinion). If Svechnikov doesn't pan out we will look terrible down the middle in 2-3 years if we trade Larkin, unless we strike gold in the draft again.

I look at it like this...

Wings scouts seem to find diamonds in the rough when it comes to forwards. Those same scouts have whiffed out on nearly every dman they drafted (in terms of becoming a legit top 2). Kronwall was the only guy they drafted the past decade that is top 2 legit. He's getting old.

Ericsson is a fabulous bottom 6 and so is smith. Sproul I gave up on, Oulette might pull through yet and make that middle paring someday but his skating leaves a lot to be desired. Jensen is iffy, but not looking too good. Marchenko is what he is. Basically they are all future serviceable NHL dman, but nobody with elite talent. Remember, Seth Jones is only 21. Sproul and Marchenko for example are 22 and 23 respectively.

Svechnikov could bust, but he might not. Sheahan hasn't peaked yet, he could be a good, not great top 2 two-way centerman.

But the scouts track record prove they are more likely to find top 6 centers over top pairing PMDs.

Larkin would be easier to replace.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I look at it like this...

Wings scouts seem to find diamonds in the rough when it comes to forwards. Those same scouts have whiffed out on nearly every dman they drafted (in terms of becoming a legit top 2). Kronwall was the only guy they drafted the past decade that is top 2 legit. He's getting old.

Ericsson is a fabulous bottom 6 and so is smith. Sproul I gave up on, Oulette might pull through yet and make that middle paring someday but his skating leaves a lot to be desired. Jensen is iffy, but not looking too good. Marchenko is what he is. Basically they are all future serviceable NHL dman, but nobody with elite talent. Remember, Seth Jones is only 21. Sproul and Marchenko for example are 22 and 23 respectively.

Svechnikov could bust, but he might not. Sheahan hasn't peaked yet, he could be a good, not great top 2 two-way centerman.

But the scouts track record prove they are more likely to find top 6 centers over top pairing PMDs.

Larkin would be easier to replace.

If by "easier" you mean "still almost impossible" then yes I agree. Larkin's a better forward prospect than we've had in 20 years, those guys aren't even easy to find in the top 10 picks. Trading him would be insanity. However, Larkin's play means guys like Sheahan/Svechnikov/Holmstrom etc become less important. Those are the type of assets we should be open to moving in the near future. Toews/Kopitar/Zetterberg/Bergeron are not players you trade. Larkin projects to be in that type of company.

 

[Dotter]

If by "easier" you mean "still almost impossible" then yes I agree. Larkin's a better forward prospect than we've had in 20 years, those guys aren't even easy to find in the top 10 picks. Trading him would be insanity. However, Larkin's play means guys like Sheahan/Svechnikov/Holmstrom etc become less important. Those are the type of assets we should be open to moving in the near future. Toews/Kopitar/Zetterberg/Bergeron are not players you trade. Larkin projects to be in that type of company.

Those types of guys also won't return much.

 

[Luke]

I would open up any assets, aside from Larkin. I just don't think Detroit is in a position to give him up.

It seems like Anaheim and Detroit are good partners; they need scoring wingers and we need a top pair D. I don't make up trades because I suck at them, but one guy I'd give a crap-ton for is Fowler. Outside of Larkin, I'd give up any two or three of either Nyquist or Tatar, plus any defenseman they want, a blue chip prospect, and a first round pick.

I'm sure Anaheim would hate to give up Fowler, but they're also on pace to be one of the lowest scoring teams in NHL history.

A lesser deal could be done too, doesn't have to be a blockbuster, anything to get Smith and Kindl out of the lineup.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Top 6 centers are hard to find. Defenseman like Seth Jones are even harder to find.

The Larkin hole would be easier to fill

This team has not drafted a potential franchise player since maybe Grigorenko. And if not him, Zetterberg.

I wouldn't trade Dylan Larkin for anything in the world right now. Other than Zetterberg and Datsyuk, Larkin's the only player I consider untouchable.

 

[DatsDeking]

I would open up any assets, aside from Larkin. I just don't think Detroit is in a position to give him up.

It seems like Anaheim and Detroit are good partners; they need scoring wingers and we need a top pair D. I don't make up trades because I suck at them, but one guy I'd give a crap-ton for is Fowler. Outside of Larkin, I'd give up any two or three of either Nyquist or Tatar, plus any defenseman they want, a blue chip prospect, and a first round pick.

I'm sure Anaheim would hate to give up Fowler, but they're also on pace to be one of the lowest scoring teams in NHL history.

A lesser deal could be done too, doesn't have to be a blockbuster, anything to get Smith and Kindl out of the lineup.

I agree with everything you are saying. A guy like Pulkkinen or Tatar could be a good trading piece. I'd be willingly to Trade Martha and a D prospect for Fowler. The issue, like you've touched on, is that ANA doesn't want to trade Fowler. There D doesn't look to good without him.

If there scoring issues continue though, I can see them being in a bigger position to trade for a proven guy like Tatar. On the other hand, if they get knocked out of the plaoyoff race early, which I doubt happens, they might be willing to take a package around Mantha.

 

[Dotter]

I agree with everything you are saying. A guy like Pulkkinen or Tatar could be a good trading piece. I'd be willingly to Trade Martha and a D prospect for Fowler. The issue, like you've touched on, is that ANA doesn't want to trade Fowler. There D doesn't look to good without him.

If there scoring issues continue though, I can see them being in a bigger position to trade for a proven guy like Tatar. On the other hand, if they get knocked out of the plaoyoff race early, which I doubt happens, they might be willing to take a package around Mantha.

Problem with this is Fowler to them is valued at Larkin is to us. Why would we think they would trade a player that means as much to them that we wouldn't trade ourselves?

Are we going to wait it out to see who sucks longer, and the first one who flinches first wins?

Ducks probably care less about their playoff streak than DRWs fans do about theirs. I suspect they'll reluctantly play it out and hope a winger hits the waiver wire or a cheap trade pops up.

It's easier to find scoring wingers on waiver wires or cheap trades than it is to find top PMD defenseman.

I think people severely over-value Tatar and Pulkenen. I doubt they'll bring anything that's much of an upgrade over what we already have.

 

[Hobnobs]

I still say Gunnarsson and how about a guy like Kulikov?

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

We just need one more stabilizing force on the backend. Looking at realistic options, there aren't many. A guy like Petry would be perfect.

 

[Luke]

Problem with this is Fowler to them is valued at Larkin is to us. Why would we think they would trade a player that means as much to them that we wouldn't trade ourselves?

Are we going to wait it out to see who sucks longer, and the first one who flinches first wins?

Ducks probably care less about their playoff streak than DRWs fans do about theirs. I suspect they'll reluctantly play it out and hope a winger hits the waiver wire or a cheap trade pops up.

It's easier to find scoring wingers on waiver wires or cheap trades than it is to find top PMD defenseman.

I think people severely over-value Tatar and Pulkenen. I doubt they'll bring anything that's much of an upgrade over what we already have.

I don't think Fowler is their equivalent to Larkin but I think Lindholm is, which is why it wouldn't cross my mind. Just not happening from either side. Agree their D isn't that impressive without Fowler, but they need scoring bad, and would be better than ours currently.

And I don't think I overvalue Tatar at all. He is a consistent top six goal scoring winger, which is a valuable commodity. Not nearly as valuable as a top 2 Dman, which is why Detroit would have to add quite a bit, but he isn't average either.