Armchair GM Thread LXXXVI: If It Makes Sense, We'll Do It Edition

[y2kcanucks]

Hopefully Horvat, Kassian, Virtanen and your boy Shinkaruk. Whether they do or not, I have my doubts (as expressed earlier). But trading the twins and thrusting Shinkaruk into a top-6 role (with Nick Bonino as the first line center...) when he's currently playing third line minutes in the AHL, just so you can acquire some picks is a fast track to ensuring he busts.

The difference between the Oilers and Flames is not the draft picks. It's the Giordano's and Hudler's vs. Ference and the shell of a scapegoated Shawn Horcoff.

If the Sedins are responsible for Kassian's development then we should just waive them right now. Kassian has not developed.

I fail to see how moving the Sedins means we would have to thrust Horvat into top line duty. He's playing on the 4th line right now and we can keep him in that role until he shows more. We also don't need to bump up Shinkaruk from 3rd line duty in the AHL to top line duty in the NHL...what makes you think that would happen? Also how does the Sedins being here have anything to do with Virtanen's development right now? They also aren't even in the same league.

Prior to this year Hudler's impact on the Flames was that of a 2nd liner. Sure he's useful, but I don't think he's the reason Monahan has developed. He's also not the reason they have Sam Bennett.

 

[VanJack]

Guys who will soon be having the last laugh will be Gillis/Tortorella ...Torts the only one to give a candid assessment of the core at year-end....but obviously not the message anyone wanted to hear....instead they acquired spare parts instead of legitimate prospects from the Ducks in the Kesler deal; signed another two mid-30's veterans in Miller/Vrbata and somehow believed that by magic the rest of the over-30 crowd had one or two more seasons in them...Honestly doubt this was preferred route by Benning-Linden...has the ownership stamp all over it.....so could be poetic justice....a high-payroll, mediocre team with no playoff revenue.

 

[ahmon]

Hopefully Horvat, Kassian, Virtanen and your boy Shinkaruk. Whether they do or not, I have my doubts (as expressed earlier). But trading the twins and thrusting Shinkaruk into a top-6 role (with Nick Bonino as the first line center...) when he's currently playing third line minutes in the AHL, just so you can acquire some picks is a fast track to ensuring he busts.

The difference between the Oilers and Flames is not the draft picks. It's the Giordano's and Hudler's vs. Ference and the shell of a scapegoated Shawn Horcoff.

Canucks can easily keep hamhuis and still rebuild. ( tanev part of future)

If the canucks draft in the teens vs top5 we arent getting no monahan or bennett.

 

[vancityluongo]

I don't think anyone would argue that getting a top-5 draft pick or two would be a massive boost to any rebuild effort. Or that the Canucks need to make some change greater than adding a deadline piece before they can legitimately be contenders.

My only issue is with the Armchair posts/ideas where a free-for-all Edmonton style daycare produces an elite team based off of the maximum potentials of great but not elite prospects.

Yes, right now there are no potential, future Sedins in the pipeline. At all. But you don't need 90-100 point players to be a cup winner. And even if you do, you don't need to sell off any player with more than 200 career GP to make that happen.

 

[ahmon]

I don't think anyone would argue that getting a top-5 draft pick or two would be a massive boost to any rebuild effort. Or that the Canucks need to make some change greater than adding a deadline piece before they can legitimately be contenders.

My only issue is with the Armchair posts/ideas where a free-for-all Edmonton style daycare produces an elite team based off of the maximum potentials of great but not elite prospects.

Yes, right now there are no potential, future Sedins in the pipeline. At all. But you don't need 90-100 point players to be a cup winner. And even if you do, you don't need to sell off any player with more than 200 career GP to make that happen.

Who said a rebuild is selling every veteran?

 

[Cogburn]

The ideal situation is obviously that you have a Cory Schneider type blue chip piece to "seamlessly" takeover, but we've seen that the Eddie Lack types can make quite a push when the right environment is there.

Lack versus Markstrom. Lack was allowed to go at his own pace, pushed out one of the two starters we had, and is still showing as much promise behind Luongo and now Miller as ever. Markstrom kind of got shoehorned in, and...well is rebuilding his game in the minor leagues.

Oh i love the twins. Its just helps the argument how drafting high enhances your chance to get franchise guys that you can bank on for a decade or so.

unfortunately the sedins are on decline now. Ie time for a new core. Hence its better to expedite the process and draft our new sedins ie face of the franchise.

They are on the decline, but it's not like they will wake up tomorrow and be useless. I'm all for adding to our core, pumping it up or replacing our vets and having them in mentoring roles...but how do we get there? The draft is not a sure thing, neither is trading for these players. Developing players is the safest route, but I'd prefer to see a mix. Draft players that suit our needs, give them the best environment to develop in (a flaw of the Burke, Nonis and even Gillis eras) and bring in the right pieces. None of this panicked Ballard/Garrison/Luongo/Schneider/Bure get what we can as fast as we can crap.

Oh, and since I brought it up...maybe not letting key pieces walk for nothing. Like Ehrhoff, or Mitchell, or Malhotra, or Torres...

 

[vancityluongo]

If the Sedins are responsible for Kassian's development then we should just waive them right now. Kassian has not developed.

I fail to see how moving the Sedins means we would have to thrust Horvat into top line duty. He's playing on the 4th line right now and we can keep him in that role until he shows more. We also don't need to bump up Shinkaruk from 3rd line duty in the AHL to top line duty in the NHL...what makes you think that would happen? Also how does the Sedins being here have anything to do with Virtanen's development right now? They also aren't even in the same league.

Prior to this year Hudler's impact on the Flames was that of a 2nd liner. Sure he's useful, but I don't think he's the reason Monahan has developed. He's also not the reason they have Sam Bennett.

These aren't instantaneous moves. Shinkaruk wouldn't be the direct call up to replace Daniel in your fantasy world where the Sedins get waived...but the expectation would be that he fills that role in 2 years. Can he do that from where he's at now? Especially if Nick Bonino is the first line center (a player who you're just as critical of as I am). How long should 3rd liners Chris Higgins and Shawn Matthias fill that other LW spot on the top line until Shinkaruk develops? Because you seem to advocate moving them for a 2nd rounder the second you get a chance. Brad Richardson on the second line? A Nick Bonino injury away from the first line? If I'm Connor McDavid I refuse to report to that team. And if I'm Hunter Shinkaruk, I'm pretty damn worried to play on a team where Chris Higgins is sheltering me from the top matchups in two years.

What's the reason then that Monahan has developed and someone like Nugent-Hopkins (arguably) hasn't? You could argue transferability of playing styles to the NHL, but RNH was a far superior prospect to Monahan. How do they have identical stat lines right now?

 

[vancityluongo]

Who said a rebuild is selling every veteran?

Doesn't have to be every veteran. Selling the Sedins alone means that the trickle down effect is Chris Higgins and Nick Bonino on the first line... Trading Shawn Matthias, Alex Burrows and/or Jannik Hansen means Nick Jensen is an NHL player before he should be. And so on.

Oh, and since I brought it up...maybe not letting key pieces walk for nothing. Like Ehrhoff, or Mitchell, or Malhotra, or Torres...

100% agreed with the whole post, but this in particular. Add Santorelli to that. Sadly Benning has already done it too.

 

[turkulad]

Beiksa would get a 1st. He is well regarded in the league.

I echo this. Come the trade deadline, Vancouver isn't obligated to do anything, so it's not another Kesler situation. Higgins and Bieksa have no reasons to be disgruntled about being traded to a true contender if all the pieces fit for all parties. Obviously that means there are a lot of prerequisites, but in theory a trade sending two of Higgins/Burrows/Bieksa to a contender can happen and would benefit this franchise a lot.

Bieksa is a high-level 3rd/2nd pairing veteran and Higgins a luxury on the third line and a respectable 2nd liner when push comes to shove. When a team is a contender, you play those guys with another players of their caliber because the depth is there. Put Bieksa on Montreal's third pairing and Higgins on Montreal's third line and they are in a better situation than playing with snakebitten Vancouver forwards and our selection of Stanton/Sbisa/Weber/Corrado.

 

[PokerPig]

To Minnesota - Ryan Miller, Brad Richardson
To Vancouver - Niklas Backstrom, 1st, 3rd

To Montreal - Alex Burrows, Kevin Bieksa, 4th
To Vancouver - David Desharnais, Tom Gilbert, 1st, 3rd

To Columbus - Nick Bonino, Zack Kassian, 5th
To Vancouver - Cam Atkinson, Oliver Bjorkstrand, 2nd, 3rd

To Detroit - Alexander Edler, Shawn Matthias, 5th, 6th
To Vancouver - Jakub Kindl, Riley Sheahan, Xavier Oullete, 1st

To Nashville - Dan Hamhuis, Tom Sestito, Ludwig Blomstrand
To Vancouver - Olli Jokinen, Pontus Aberg, Colton Sissons, 1st, 7th


Canucks draft 21, 22, 26, 29, 44, 66, 81, 86 and 209. Plus their own 1st and 2nd. (If we go by todays standings and Canucks get previously acquired Leafs 2nd, Philly 3rd in above trades and draft Barzal top 10 with their own pick)

Matthew Barzal, Brock Boeser, Paul Bittner, Jordan Greenway, 6 top 90 defenseman and a wildcard in the 7th.


Cam Atkinson, Riley Sheahan, Linden Vey, Niklas Jensen, Colton Sissons, Bo Horvat, Pontus Aberg, Brendan Gaunce, Hunter Shinkaruk, Cole Cassels, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann and the 4 drafted forwards makes 17 forwards age 25 or under.

Tom Gilbert, Jakub Kindl, Luca Sbisa, Chris Tanev, Ryan Stanton, Yannick Weber is a top 6 that guarantees a tank but other than Gilbert they're all 28-25 years old with room for improvement or the perfect placeholder in the meantime.

Xavier Oullete and Frank Corrado make the best NHL ready defense prospects weve had in a long time plus the Jordan Subban types we already have plus the 6 top 90 defensemen we draft this year.


Nik Backstrom gets bought out at years end, running with the Swedish three headed monster and Cannata/Demko.


Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Higgins - Desharnais - Vey
Hansen - Sheahan - Dorsett
Jokinen - Horvat - Atkinson

One of Sissons, Jensen, Aberg, Shinkaruk or Gaunce as 13th forward with 4 in Utica for callup.

Kindl - Gilbert
Sbisa - Weber
Stanton - Tanev
Oullete - Corrado

Lack, Backstrom


With about 15 mill in cap space were just over the lower limit of the cap too.

 

[Pip]

That might be the worst defense I've ever seen.

 

[Goon42]

 

[biturbo19]

To Minnesota - Ryan Miller, Brad Richardson
To Vancouver - Niklas Backstrom, 1st, 3rd

To Montreal - Alex Burrows, Kevin Bieksa, 4th
To Vancouver - David Desharnais, Tom Gilbert, 1st, 3rd

To Columbus - Nick Bonino, Zack Kassian, 5th
To Vancouver - Cam Atkinson, Oliver Bjorkstrand, 2nd, 3rd

To Detroit - Alexander Edler, Shawn Matthias, 5th, 6th
To Vancouver - Jakub Kindl, Riley Sheahan, Xavier Oullete, 1st

To Nashville - Dan Hamhuis, Tom Sestito, Ludwig Blomstrand
To Vancouver - Olli Jokinen, Pontus Aberg, Colton Sissons, 1st, 7th


Canucks draft 21, 22, 26, 29, 44, 66, 81, 86 and 209. Plus their own 1st and 2nd. (If we go by todays standings and Canucks get previously acquired Leafs 2nd, Philly 3rd in above trades and draft Barzal top 10 with their own pick)

Matthew Barzal, Brock Boeser, Paul Bittner, Jordan Greenway, 6 top 90 defenseman and a wildcard in the 7th.


Cam Atkinson, Riley Sheahan, Linden Vey, Niklas Jensen, Colton Sissons, Bo Horvat, Pontus Aberg, Brendan Gaunce, Hunter Shinkaruk, Cole Cassels, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann and the 4 drafted forwards makes 17 forwards age 25 or under.

Tom Gilbert, Jakub Kindl, Luca Sbisa, Chris Tanev, Ryan Stanton, Yannick Weber is a top 6 that guarantees a tank but other than Gilbert they're all 28-25 years old with room for improvement or the perfect placeholder in the meantime.

Xavier Oullete and Frank Corrado make the best NHL ready defense prospects weve had in a long time plus the Jordan Subban types we already have plus the 6 top 90 defensemen we draft this year.


Nik Backstrom gets bought out at years end, running with the Swedish three headed monster and Cannata/Demko.


Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Higgins - Desharnais - Vey
Hansen - Sheahan - Dorsett
Jokinen - Horvat - Atkinson

One of Sissons, Jensen, Aberg, Shinkaruk or Gaunce as 13th forward with 4 in Utica for callup.

Kindl - Gilbert
Sbisa - Weber
Stanton - Tanev
Oullete - Corrado

Lack, Backstrom


With about 15 mill in cap space were just over the lower limit of the cap too.

 

[David71]

rewatching the torts end presser. everything he says is right. nucks need youth ehtusaimum injected into the lineup. it aint 2011. core is stale been toegether for so long. time to ship a couple of vets out for picks prospects. time to get younger. maybe in 3-5 yrs the jensens/shinkaruks/virtenans of the worlds would dominate and make the team more exciting.

 

[Grumbler]

I have lost any shred of confidence I had after yesterday's game. The core must be completely changed, I mean completely. A complete rebuild of the roster like Edmonton. I don't ****ing care if it takes 4-6 years, cuz if we don't start now we won't have a **** chance in 10 years.

Failure to make the playoffs this year is 100%, yes 100% on the players. I was completely right to be skeptical of the **** these players said about our past coaches, almost all of them besides just saying the regular save face **** in the media treated it as if it is all on the coaches. we'll ****you. Just utter garbage games from the team since dec 6, 2014.

 

[me2]

rewatching the torts end presser. everything he says is right. nucks need youth ehtusaimum injected into the lineup. it aint 2011. core is stale been toegether for so long. time to ship a couple of vets out for picks prospects. time to get younger. maybe in 3-5 yrs the jensens/shinkaruks/virtenans of the worlds would dominate and make the team more exciting.

There is nothing in the pipeline that will turn this ship around.

 

[banme*]

To Minnesota - Ryan Miller, Brad Richardson
To Vancouver - Niklas Backstrom, 1st, 3rd

To Montreal - Alex Burrows, Kevin Bieksa, 4th
To Vancouver - David Desharnais, Tom Gilbert, 1st, 3rd

To Columbus - Nick Bonino, Zack Kassian, 5th
To Vancouver - Cam Atkinson, Oliver Bjorkstrand, 2nd, 3rd

To Detroit - Alexander Edler, Shawn Matthias, 5th, 6th
To Vancouver - Jakub Kindl, Riley Sheahan, Xavier Oullete, 1st

To Nashville - Dan Hamhuis, Tom Sestito, Ludwig Blomstrand
To Vancouver - Olli Jokinen, Pontus Aberg, Colton Sissons, 1st, 7th


Canucks draft 21, 22, 26, 29, 44, 66, 81, 86 and 209. Plus their own 1st and 2nd. (If we go by todays standings and Canucks get previously acquired Leafs 2nd, Philly 3rd in above trades and draft Barzal top 10 with their own pick)

Matthew Barzal, Brock Boeser, Paul Bittner, Jordan Greenway, 6 top 90 defenseman and a wildcard in the 7th.


Cam Atkinson, Riley Sheahan, Linden Vey, Niklas Jensen, Colton Sissons, Bo Horvat, Pontus Aberg, Brendan Gaunce, Hunter Shinkaruk, Cole Cassels, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann and the 4 drafted forwards makes 17 forwards age 25 or under.

Tom Gilbert, Jakub Kindl, Luca Sbisa, Chris Tanev, Ryan Stanton, Yannick Weber is a top 6 that guarantees a tank but other than Gilbert they're all 28-25 years old with room for improvement or the perfect placeholder in the meantime.

Xavier Oullete and Frank Corrado make the best NHL ready defense prospects weve had in a long time plus the Jordan Subban types we already have plus the 6 top 90 defensemen we draft this year.


Nik Backstrom gets bought out at years end, running with the Swedish three headed monster and Cannata/Demko.


Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Higgins - Desharnais - Vey
Hansen - Sheahan - Dorsett
Jokinen - Horvat - Atkinson

One of Sissons, Jensen, Aberg, Shinkaruk or Gaunce as 13th forward with 4 in Utica for callup.

Kindl - Gilbert
Sbisa - Weber
Stanton - Tanev
Oullete - Corrado

Lack, Backstrom


With about 15 mill in cap space were just over the lower limit of the cap too.

I'd like to nominate this for best post of 2015 (already!!), reading it is like a radical adventure.

 

[turkulad]

To Minnesota - Ryan Miller, Brad Richardson
To Vancouver - Niklas Backstrom, 1st, 3rd

To Montreal - Alex Burrows, Kevin Bieksa, 4th
To Vancouver - David Desharnais, Tom Gilbert, 1st, 3rd

To Columbus - Nick Bonino, Zack Kassian, 5th
To Vancouver - Cam Atkinson, Oliver Bjorkstrand, 2nd, 3rd

To Detroit - Alexander Edler, Shawn Matthias, 5th, 6th
To Vancouver - Jakub Kindl, Riley Sheahan, Xavier Oullete, 1st

To Nashville - Dan Hamhuis, Tom Sestito, Ludwig Blomstrand
To Vancouver - Olli Jokinen, Pontus Aberg, Colton Sissons, 1st, 7th


Canucks draft 21, 22, 26, 29, 44, 66, 81, 86 and 209. Plus their own 1st and 2nd. (If we go by todays standings and Canucks get previously acquired Leafs 2nd, Philly 3rd in above trades and draft Barzal top 10 with their own pick)

Matthew Barzal, Brock Boeser, Paul Bittner, Jordan Greenway, 6 top 90 defenseman and a wildcard in the 7th.


Cam Atkinson, Riley Sheahan, Linden Vey, Niklas Jensen, Colton Sissons, Bo Horvat, Pontus Aberg, Brendan Gaunce, Hunter Shinkaruk, Cole Cassels, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann and the 4 drafted forwards makes 17 forwards age 25 or under.

Tom Gilbert, Jakub Kindl, Luca Sbisa, Chris Tanev, Ryan Stanton, Yannick Weber is a top 6 that guarantees a tank but other than Gilbert they're all 28-25 years old with room for improvement or the perfect placeholder in the meantime.

Xavier Oullete and Frank Corrado make the best NHL ready defense prospects weve had in a long time plus the Jordan Subban types we already have plus the 6 top 90 defensemen we draft this year.


Nik Backstrom gets bought out at years end, running with the Swedish three headed monster and Cannata/Demko.


Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Higgins - Desharnais - Vey
Hansen - Sheahan - Dorsett
Jokinen - Horvat - Atkinson

One of Sissons, Jensen, Aberg, Shinkaruk or Gaunce as 13th forward with 4 in Utica for callup.

Kindl - Gilbert
Sbisa - Weber
Stanton - Tanev
Oullete - Corrado

Lack, Backstrom


With about 15 mill in cap space were just over the lower limit of the cap too.

Dat defense. Corrado might just take over as the #1 defenseman. Trippy.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Yeah but we could end up being the first team in histroy to trade away their entire group of top-4 defensemen in less than a year. We'd be making history.

 

[Blob Mckenzie*]

And who is developing because of the Sedins being here?

And who exactly are the twins holding back from developing ? The guys who could maybe develop in the next year or two need to be brought along on the third and fourth lines . There isn't a single prospect in the organization that is good enough to push his way onto this team at the moment . That comes from six years of horrific drafting thanks to Eye Bags and the cheese burgular.

 

[Yossarian54]

I don't understand why there is even discussion of moving the Sedins. Not only does that make Nick Bonino our #1C, and Chris Higgins our #1RW as others have pointed out, it is a practical impossibility.

What team has:
-14M in cap space
AND
-Is willing to take on two 33 year olds for 3 years (i.e. is in win-now mode for that time)
AND
-Has the assets to make a trade for not one but two 1st line calibre (by any scoring metric) forwards without compromising it's ability to "win-now".

The answer is none. We all know the Sedins, having full NMCs, are only going together if at all.

What I would be doing if I were Benning would be identifying guys who are going to stay, as part of a core group to develop our prospects around or simply by virtue of full NMCs, and trying to move the other, older guys at the deadline and the draft the next two years.

Realistically you're keeping anyone under 25, the Sedins, Burrows and Bieksa (going down casually with the ****ing ship eh Kevin). Probably Hamhuis and Hansen too.

Higgins, Richardson should almost be automatic outs. Edler, Bonino and Vrbata are the big questions, and the big opportunities. They don't bring anything to a rebulding team. None are real leaders and none are guys who are really going to be able to shelter and teach rookies, because they need that treatment to score heavily anyway.

Calgary's an interesting comparison. Glencross, Stajan and Raymond really soak up the hard minutes. Monahan gets hard competition but favourable zone starts. We need more picks, but we also really need to grab a top 5/6 pick somewhere.

This post was much harder without capgeek, **** I miss that site.

 

[KeninsFan]

I echo this. Come the trade deadline, Vancouver isn't obligated to do anything, so it's not another Kesler situation. Higgins and Bieksa have no reasons to be disgruntled about being traded to a true contender if all the pieces fit for all parties. Obviously that means there are a lot of prerequisites, but in theory a trade sending two of Higgins/Burrows/Bieksa to a contender can happen and would benefit this franchise a lot.

Bieksa is a high-level 3rd/2nd pairing veteran and Higgins a luxury on the third line and a respectable 2nd liner when push comes to shove. When a team is a contender, you play those guys with another players of their caliber because the depth is there. Put Bieksa on Montreal's third pairing and Higgins on Montreal's third line and they are in a better situation than playing with snakebitten Vancouver forwards and our selection of Stanton/Sbisa/Weber/Corrado.

Bieksa's value at this deadline will be high, look at the trade market for Dmen rentals. It goes:

Sekera





Petry


everyone else

 

[MikeK]

I agree. The Sedin's aren't going anywhere. They aren't going to be split up and not many teams, if any, have the cap space or resources to make such a trade happen mid season. Probably the most important factor is the fact they aren't likely to agree to a deal, at any time. They are nearing the end of the line and probably have zero interest in going to a new franchise. I think people underestimate this aspect of it. They have a full NTC and I don't see anyway they waive it. They will be Canucks until they retire. My opinion.

 

[PerdFan]

And Nashville needs Hamhuis because why? Sorry Ol' Danny-boy burned that bridge when he left the 1st time.

 

[arsmaster*]

This thread looks juicy, can't wait to read the last few pages.