Speculation: Armchair GM and Rumors Thread XXII - FLAMES RELATED (Matt Stajan Appreciation inside)

[Fig]

I'll do Wideman and Pollock

Wideman for cap and Pollock is useless

You gathered all that from the one or two games in preseason he wasn't great, eh?

The Flames won't send down Wideman. They would still have to pay him 5 Million just to play in Stockton. I don't see that happening.

Plus he has an NMC. I don't think you can send him down without his approval.

 

[Calculon]

It's preseason but Wideman looks another half step slower and just as bad on the powerplay as last year.

 

[Volica]

The Flames won't send down Wideman. They would still have to pay him 5 Million just to play in Stockton. I don't see that happening.

That and he wouldn't get claimed. 5+ million is more than most teams are willing to take on just like that.

I'd like to see what we have in Wotherspoon. He's been solid in every NHL appearance he's had; I really couldn't care less about how he's done in the AHL, because that isn't a league for simple players (ie look at Bouma). I just think Wotherspoon brings better defence than Wideman and still has a lot of room to grow. You hedge your bet on him developing even more at the NHL level; versus losing him just because you have a bad contract in Wideman.

Kulak has been solid in his preseason. I think we can only have one or the other this camp; so I'd be okay with him back for another development season with callup opportunity.

 

[Volica]

It's preseason but Wideman looks another half step slower and just as bad on the powerplay as last year.

Im interested about how this blue line shakes up. The top 3 is certain. Jyrki, Engelland and Wideman are all vets, Wotherspoon and Kulak are pushing, there's rumours of Russell being back in the mix...

Something has to give. The only thing I've been able to correctly call is Smido's career being over

 

[MonyontheMoney]

I don't think Wideman is as bad as some people claim, but not as good as others think.

He's by no means a PP QB, but he is a weapon on the PP due to his shot. He isn't Justin Schultz bad defensively, but he is a liability in his own end for sure. He doesn't warrant being sent the the AHL (even if we could), but he doesn't warrant top 4 minutes.

The reason I want to see Widemam traded, or in and out of the lineup as the 7th defenceman, has more to do with fit on our blue line more than it does with Wideman's abilities, though I'm not the biggest fan in those either.

We have Hamilton, Giordano, and Brodie to play the PP, all of which are effective (it would be nice if Brodie could get more shots through) but he's got good passing abilities so he works well on PP2. Sure, our PP wasn't very good last year, but with the personnel we have, that shouldn't be the expectation going forward. Wideman just seems redundant at this point, in the sense that he doesn't bring anything our top 3 defencemen don't to warrant taking PP time from one of them, and he's not solid enough defensively to be a part of the solution in fixing the big problem, our scoring chances against.

 

[Calculon]

Im interested about how this blue line shakes up. The top 3 is certain. Jyrki, Engelland and Wideman are all vets, Wotherspoon and Kulak are pushing, there's rumours of Russell being back in the mix...

Something has to give. The only thing I've been able to correctly call is Smido's career being over

Russell signing here seems like an inevitability which leaves no room for either Wotherspoon or Kulak unless the Flames elect to go with eight defencemen.

Giordano-Brodie
Jokipakka-Hamilton
Russell-Wideman
Wotherspoon-Engelland

 

[Lunatik]

I don't think Wideman is as bad as some people claim, but not as good as others think.

He's by no means a PP QB, but he is a weapon on the PP due to his shot. He isn't Justin Schultz bad defensively, but he is a liability in his own end for sure. He doesn't warrant being sent the the AHL (even if we could), but he doesn't warrant top 4 minutes.

The reason I want to see Widemam traded, or in and out of the lineup as the 7th defenceman, has more to do with fit on our blue line more than it does with Wideman's abilities, though I'm not the biggest fan in those either.

We have Hamilton, Giordano, and Brodie to play the PP, all of which are effective (it would be nice if Brodie could get more shots through) but he's got good passing abilities so he works well on PP2. Sure, our PP wasn't very good last year, but with the personnel we have, that shouldn't be the expectation going forward. Wideman just seems redundant at this point, in the sense that he doesn't bring anything our top 3 defencemen don't to warrant taking PP time from one of them, and he's not solid enough defensively to be a part of the solution in fixing the big problem, our scoring chances against.

I don't think anyone is saying he should be a PPQB nor is anyone saying he is more than a minute munching #5.

You more or less just outlined why I think he is important to the PP. If we want to greatly improve in that area then we need to improve both PP units. That means Wideman/Brodie on the 2nd unit. Also Wideman's PP struggles are being grossly overstated. The PP was only terrible in October and November and it seems almost everyone pegs the PP troubles on him, but the PP problems were the same as the defense in general. Giordano wasn't at 100%, Brodie was hurt and Hamilton was learning the team/system. No Wideman wasn't great, but neither was anyone else!

Wideman is really nothing more than a scapegoat for fans that can't see past his contract and/or his mistake with Henderson.But this is no surprise, Flames fans always vilify their own depth players.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

I don't think anyone is saying he should be a PPQB nor is anyone saying he is more than a minute munching #5.

I've seen the term PPQB tossed around in conjunction with Wideman both here and on the main boards several times throughout the summer, though admittedly that could just be for a lack of a better term rather than people actually believing he is a prototypical PPQB. Also, due to our lack of a #4, he has certainly been pencilled in as the #4 on some lineups, but that's mainly because of circumstance rather than his abilities. I also don't think the term minute muncher should be used to describe Wideman, sure he plays a fair bit, but again, out of circumstance not his ability. To me at least, the term "minute muncher" implies that the player in question is reliable and doesn't make a lot of mistakes or take many risks, they are just solid, that's not Wideman IMO.

You more or less just outlined why I think he is important to the PP. If we want to greatly improve in that area then we need to improve both PP units. That means Wideman/Brodie on the 2nd unit. Also Wideman's PP struggles are being grossly overstated. The PP was only terrible in October and November and it seems almost everyone pegs the PP troubles on him, but the PP problems were the same as the defense in general. Giordano wasn't at 100%, Brodie was hurt and Hamilton was learning the team/system. No Wideman wasn't great, but neither was anyone else!

I get Widemans' shot is a nice asset on the PP, and under different circumstances I would certainly have him on my team to fill a 3rd pair PP specialist role. By different circumstance I mean if we had a true shutdown defenceman, a Hamonic, Hjalmarsson, Vlasic type to play in the top 4, and overall better defensive depth. Right now I feel our back end is much more offensively prolific than it is defensively solid, and that needs to change. It's not terrible as is, but I do think it's slightly overrated in terms of defensive play.

Wideman is really nothing more than a scapegoat for fans that can't see past his contract and/or his mistake with Henderson.But this is no surprise, Flames fans always vilify their own depth players.

Wideman is overpaid absolutely, but that's not why I feel the way explained above. I'm also sure you've seen me defending Wideman on the main board thread, so that's not why either. I strongly feel the we are a better team with a more defence oriented player in Widemans' spot at this point.

 

[DFF]

You gathered all that from the one or two games in preseason he wasn't great, eh?


.

Nope seen that movie before in Dallas

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Nope seen that movie before in Dallas

Has he ever played a game in the Dallas Stars organization? Or have you been to lots of Stars development camps?

 

[Lunatik]

\Wideman is overpaid absolutely, but that's not why I feel the way explained above. I'm also sure you've seen me defending Wideman on the main board thread, so that's not why either. I strongly feel the we are a better team with a more defence oriented player in Widemans' spot at this point.

That comment was not in regards to you, more of a generalization of our fan base. We see it all the time from Stajan, to Wideman, to Bouma, to Bollig. People like to blame depth players for some stupid reason rather than accepting everything above those depth players needs to improve.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

That comment was not in regards to you, more of a generalization of our fan base. We see it all the time from Stajan, to Wideman, to Bouma, to Bollig. People like to blame depth players for some stupid reason rather than accepting everything above those depth players needs to improve.

Absolutely I agree with this. Even Engelland Id put in that group. I'd say all of them are NHL level players, Bollig, being a borderline one, but is still fine as a 13th/14th forward, but people act like they're all AHL level players.

 

[Bouma Fett*]

I think that applies sometimes. But I also think we're allowed to not like some of these players. Stajan is totally overpaid and I just don't think has ever added much. Bouma I like a lot but I think his contract was a year too long. Engelland I'd overpaid but fills his role well.

 

[Lunatik]

Quite frankly disliking a player because of their contract is stupid, we don't pay it.

And yeah it's fine to not like guys, but to actively cheer against them and cheer for them to lose their livelihood as some do is ridiculous. If you can't cheer for everyone on the team, then don't watch.

 

[Bouma Fett*]

I don't have Stajan because of his contract. It just adds to my dislike of him on the roster more. Never liked him, since his Toronto days.

 

[Calculon]

In the cap world, bad contracts are absolutely real issues. And when players like Stajan and Wideman don't match up to the cap space they take, then yeah, it's completely logical to want them gone for cheaper options. Cap space is an asset and it's important the organization uses it wisely.

 

[Lunatik]

In the cap world, bad contracts are absolutely real issues. And when players like Stajan and Wideman don't match up to the cap space they take, then yeah, it's completely logical to want them gone for cheaper options. Cap space is an asset and it's important the organization uses it wisely.

*****ing about bad contracts when the team in under the cap as they have been doesn't make sense at all actually because cheaper options will usually do nothing but lower the quality of players.

 

[Calculon]

*****ing about bad contracts when the team in under the cap as they have been doesn't make sense at all actually because cheaper options will usually do nothing but lower the quality of players.

No . . . because again, the overpaid players are being replaced because they aren't living up to their contracts in the first place. If Stajan had been an UFA this past summer, he would have been looking at league minimum or a PTO, just like Jones and Raymond, two other vastly overrated veterans. That's the quality of his play. So replacing him with someone who actually makes the appropriate amount for a fourth line centre doesn't 'lower the quality of players' but it does decrease the inefficient use of cap space.

In a sense though, complaining is pointless. As in the real world, there is no viable way to make Stajan's contract disappear; either the Flames would have to attach a high pick or quality prospect to dump his salary or wait until next year to use a buyout. The Flames are essentially stuck with him (and Wideman) for better or worse.

 

[Snazu]

No . . . because again, the overpaid players are being replaced because they aren't living up to their contracts in the first place. If Stajan had been an UFA this past summer, he would have been looking at league minimum or a PTO, just like Jones and Raymond, two other vastly overrated veterans. That's the quality of his play. So replacing him with someone who actually makes the appropriate amount for a fourth line centre doesn't 'lower the quality of players' but it does decrease the inefficient use of cap space.

In a sense though, complaining is pointless. As in the real world, there is no viable way to make Stajan's contract disappear; either the Flames would have to attach a high pick or quality prospect to dump his salary or wait until next year to use a buyout. The Flames are essentially stuck with him (and Wideman) for better or worse.

I wrote up more or less the same thing as you said in the first paragraph but got timed out before sending it and lost it. So I agree that theirs probably equal players for less available.

I think having guys like Stajan and Wideman around are helping the Flames in other ways than on the scoresheet or wins and loses. I think that having them and some of the other veterans that the Flames have kept around are the reason why this rebuild has turned around so quickly because there's good quality guys showing the younger guys how to be professionals and there's a shorter learning curve for the younger players, instead of what's happened with the Oilers.

I do agree the Flames are paying quite a bit more than they need to for them, but on the plus side, all the contracts are expiring at the right time and it's not getting in the way of the Flames resigning someone important to them.

I also think that Wideman is going to have a bounce back year though and the Flames will be able to flip him at the deadline for something decent quite easily.

 

[Lunatik]

No . . . because again, the overpaid players are being replaced because they aren't living up to their contracts in the first place. If Stajan had been an UFA this past summer, he would have been looking at league minimum or a PTO, just like Jones and Raymond, two other vastly overrated veterans. That's the quality of his play. So replacing him with someone who actually makes the appropriate amount for a fourth line centre doesn't 'lower the quality of players' but it does decrease the inefficient use of cap space.

In a sense though, complaining is pointless. As in the real world, there is no viable way to make Stajan's contract disappear; either the Flames would have to attach a high pick or quality prospect to dump his salary or wait until next year to use a buyout. The Flames are essentially stuck with him (and Wideman) for better or worse.

That's just it though, these younger players aren't better. When they prove to be better they get the job regardless of what the veterans are being paid. This youth is always better narrative you like to spin is pure hokum, it's no more than something you have fabricated in your mind because you are hung up on age and dollars.

 

[Calculon]

I wrote up more or less the same thing as you said in the first paragraph but got timed out before sending it and lost it. So I agree that theirs probably equal players for less available.

I think having guys like Stajan and Wideman around are helping the Flames in other ways than on the scoresheet or wins and loses. I think that having them and some of the other veterans that the Flames have kept around are the reason why this rebuild has turned around so quickly because there's good quality guys showing the younger guys how to be professionals and there's a shorter learning curve for the younger players, instead of what's happened with the Oilers.

I do agree the Flames are paying quite a bit more than they need to for them, but on the plus side, all the contracts are expiring at the right time and it's not getting in the way of the Flames resigning someone important to them.

I also think that Wideman is going to have a bounce back year though and the Flames will be able to flip him at the deadline for something decent quite easily.

Stajan does get rave reviews for his locker-room intangibles, so yeah, that's worth something. But still not worth his cap hit. Moot point of course.

But I don't see Wideman getting the ice time or rope to bounce back from what he already is. New coach means a clean slate; Gulutzan isn't going to keep Wideman in the lineup if his poor defensive coverage or declining powerplay skills start costing the Flames points. Or at least he shouldn't. Wideman doesn't became one of his 'guys' just because he's old or had unsustainable success years past.

Wideman hasn't looked particularly good, defensively or offensively, in pre-season but maybe that changes when the regular season starts. He's at an age where poor performance is much more likely to mean an overall decline versus it just being a down year. But we'll see.

Best case scenario as far as I see is he garners enough value to get moved in a David Jones' like deadline deal.

That's just it though, these younger players aren't better. When they prove to be better they get the job regardless of what the veterans are being paid. This youth is always better narrative you like to spin is pure hokum, it's no more than something you have fabricated in your mind because you are hung up on age and dollars.

Yeah, this is a waste of time if you insist on being obtuse on how the cap works.

It's actually so simple a concept that even you should be able to understand it, uh eventually anyway. See, if the cheaper player is as good as the expensive veteran (or even close to being as good) but not necessarily better, then cap management dictates you go with cheaper player. Why? Because then you can address other areas of concern with the freed up cap space. The vast majority of teams in this league understand this, which is why they manage to graduate mid level talent with some regularity while the Flames struggle to develop any non-wunderkind prospects.

HFlames badly overrates "veteran leadership" but that's nothing new. Easy example, David Jones. The hysterics of the very idea of trading him at last years deadline was hilarious; 'oh won't somebody please think of the childrenunmentored kids.' If I remember correctly, there was even some posts about re-signing him to a 1.5-2M deal And now? Just released from his PTO with the Ducks and soon from the NHL. So much for that vaunted leadership. Seriously, the NHL is changing; adapt or stay lost and confused in perpetual mediocrity.

Guys like Stajan and Wideman would be PTO candidates, veteran leadership be damned, if not for the mistakes of some overly generous GM's. Get over it.

 

[Lunatik]

Yeah, this is a waste of time if you insist on being obtuse on how the cap works.

It's actually so simple a concept that even you should be able to understand it, uh eventually anyway. See, if the cheaper player is as good as the expensive veteran (or even close to being as good) but not necessarily better, then cap management dictates you go with cheaper player. Why? Because then you can address other areas of concern with the freed up cap space. The vast majority of teams in this league understand this, which is why they manage to graduate mid level talent with some regularity while the Flames struggle to develop any non-wunderkind prospects.

HFlames badly overrates "veteran leadership" but that's nothing new. Easy example, David Jones. The hysterics of the very idea of trading him at last years deadline was hilarious; 'oh won't somebody please think of the childrenunmentored kids.' If I remember correctly, there was even some posts about re-signing him to a 1.5-2M deal And now? Just released from his PTO with the Ducks and soon from the NHL. So much for that vaunted leadership. Seriously, the NHL is changing; adapt or stay lost and confused in perpetual mediocrity.

Guys like Stajan and Wideman would be PTO candidates, veteran leadership be damned, if not for the mistakes of some overly generous GM's. Get over it.

The only person being obtuse about anything is you Calc. I understand the cap as well as anyone on this board and the bottom line is unused cap space is just that, unused. Considering the Flames have not been in cap trouble since those contracts were signed, it literally makes no difference what they were paid.

This year things are a little different as for the first time in a few years we have a bit of a cap crunch (we won't know how bad until Gaudreau signs), but in the end none of the kids are ready to replace those veterans you love to complain about. The only forward prospects potentially NHL ready at this moment are Shinkaruk and Tkachuk, both of whom have a shot to make the team. On defense maybe Kulak and Wotherspoon, but neither are as close to replacing any of our top 6 defensemen.

Teams generally allow themselves at least enough cap space to move guys up and down from the minors as needed, so other than deadline day if you are looking to add a big name (which is unlikely this year) or on July 1st (we have lots of cap space then), the amount of cap space being used isn't really all that important because cap space is only valuable if you are using it. These contracts certainly aren't keeping kids off the roster because with the 950k you can bury, any player on the farm could replace them without raising our cap hit.

You are also vastly overstating the so called "hysterics", I think I was the only person upset and I was only pissed because I felt the team was intentionally tanking at that point and that was the final straw for me. Also veteran leadership being overrated on here is such a joke, if anything the veterans are taken for granted as the number of posters obsessed with the age of the players vastly outnumbers those who don't.

 

[DFF]

In the cap world, bad contracts are absolutely real issues. And when players like Stajan and Wideman don't match up to the cap space they take, then yeah, it's completely logical to want them gone for cheaper options. Cap space is an asset and it's important the organization uses it wisely.

Very good post. Stajan and Wideman are like a bad credit card debt....Wideman may get a PTO. Stajan maybe a AHL tryout, after their current contract expired.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

An overpaid contract is detrimental to any team, even if they aren't at the cap. It will be used to negotiate any future contracts with players to help escalate salaries. A contract may not be an issue in the current year, but could be an anchor down the road when other contracts are up. There really is no argument against this.
We as fans have every right to not like a marginal or overpaid player/prospect. And we are all guilty of this, including the poster arguing against it.
I actually find the fans that gush about every single thing in the organization to be the worst type of fan.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

The only hysterics surrounding trading Jones at the deadline (that I can recall) were "please Jebus let it be true"