Are Leaf fans prepared to do a proper rebuild?

[Winreims]

That's your opinion. My opinion is that since we finished 5th last, 9th last, and 2nd last the past three years we are really bad.

All I know is that no body wants a Jiri Tlusty pick.

Nathan MacKinnon would be much better for the future of this team.

Yes it is my opinion. Because in a 48 game season, we could easily go 24-19-5 (which was our record after 48 games last season with pretty much the same roster) and finish nowhere near the bottom. NOTHING is guaranteed. Saying "oh we'll just finish last and get a great player" is not a sure bet.

 

[Darch]

I don't care win or lose. I watch hockey because I enjoy the game. Of course, winning is better, but not the end of the world to me.

 

[TheBigThree]

I think nonis is going to wait a see how reimer / rest of the team plays this season and either decide if its a full rebuild or retool. Either way I wonder if I'll see the leafs win a cup in my life time. I am tired of losing and not sure if I would continue to follow the leafs if they started a full tank like Edmonton

 

[613Leafer]

We are also "good enough" to finish 9th-11th in the East. This shortened season will be a crapshoot. No one is guaranteed a bottom 3 finish, least of all us.

I dont know...

Looking at the East..
-Montreal had many many things go "wrong" for them last year. Id imagine those things should smooth out and they should do reasonably better.
-Carolina is undoubtedly better. Semin and J. Staal were added
- TB added Carle, which is a pretty good upgrade for their blueline. + Hedman (or Connolly) could both, or only one, have a breakout season. Lindback is a question mark, their goaltending cant be worse than last year, but has the potential to be quiite a bit bettet

NYI/Winnipeg I dont think should improve like the others. But Winnipeg has better goaltending, a better blueline, but a thinner forward group.

We had a number of things go well (until the end). Kessel/Lupul had career years, Phaneuf had his best year in his last 3-4, Gardiner had a great rookie year, etc. i personally think we're bottom 3 in the East if it was an 82 game season.

One thing though! I think i heard there are no inter-conference games? So low Western teams cant "gain" points against Eastern teams, so I wonder if it will force more Western teams to the bottom of the overall standings? Might cost us 1-2 spots in the standings if we're near the bottom.

 

[Frankie]

There's no such thing as a "proper rebuild". It's a figment of the imagination.

i agree. a "proper rebuild" doesn't exist in the real world. i never understand what people mean when they talk about this.

can anyone explain?

 

[Winreims]

I dont know...

Looking at the East..
-Montreal had many many things go "wrong" for them last year. Id imagine those things should smooth out and they should do reasonably better.
-Carolina is undoubtedly better. Semin and J. Staal were added
- TB added Carle, which is a pretty good upgrade for their blueline. + Hedman (or Connolly) could both, or only one, have a breakout season. Lindback is a question mark, their goaltending cant be worse than last year, but has the potential to be quiite a bit bettet

NYI/Winnipeg I dont think should improve like the others. But Winnipeg has better goaltending, a better blueline, but a thinner forward group.

We had a number of things go well (until the end). Kessel/Lupul had career years, Phaneuf had his best year in his last 3-4, Gardiner had a great rookie year, etc. i personally think we're bottom 3 in the East if it was an 82 game season.

One thing though! I think i heard there are no inter-conference games? So low Western teams cant "gain" points against Eastern teams, so I wonder if it will force more Western teams to the bottom of the overall standings? Might cost us 1-2 spots in the standings if we're near the bottom.

- We had a lot of things go wrong for us too towards the end. I don't see Montreal with the biggest addition being Colby Armstrong doing anything tbh.
- Carolina is better, no doubt
- TB's goaltending situation is a huge question mark like ours, their D is aging, and their forward group is the same as last year which couldn't push them near the playoffs
- Not worried about NYI/WPG, but like us could surprise. Who knows?

 

[Bomber0104]

Yes it is my opinion. Because in a 48 game season, we could easily go 24-19-5 (which was our record after 48 games last season with pretty much the same roster) and finish nowhere near the bottom. NOTHING is guaranteed. Saying "oh we'll just finish last and get a great player" is not a sure bet.

Two years ago the Leafs were 19-23-6 after the first 48 games.

So what?

A season is a season.

And the Leafs have been one of the worst over the past three, four years.

Nothing is guaranteed but if trends tell you anything...the Leafs are a pretty bad team.

 

[Bomber0104]

i agree. a "proper rebuild" doesn't exist in the real world. i never understand what people mean when they talk about this.

can anyone explain?

A proper rebuild is another way of saying "the manager has been making correct decisions".

If your manager has made every decision in the most correct way, his team would be a perennial contender.

If your manager has made every devision in the least correct way, his team would be a perennial loser.

 

[Winreims]

Two years ago the Leafs were 19-23-6 after the first 48 games.

So what?

A season is a season.

And the Leafs have been one of the worst over the past three, four years.

Nothing is guaranteed but if trends tell you anything...the Leafs are a pretty bad team.

And in that same year, our last 48 games went - 24-17-7. Which proves in a 48 game season, we have the ability to catch fire and finish in that middle rung of teams.

A "season" is not a "season" when it's 48 games, it's a race to the end. If you think we're set for a 9-34-5 finish because that's what YOU want, got another thing coming. We will likely be (as usual) competitive enough not to finish right at the bottom.

 

[Bomber0104]

And in that same year, our last 48 games went - 24-17-7. Which proves in a 48 game season, we have the ability to catch fire and finish in that middle rung of teams.

A "season" is not a "season" when it's 48 games, it's a race to the end. If you think we're set for a 9-34-5 finish because that's what YOU want, got another thing coming. We will likely be (as usual) competitive enough not to finish right at the bottom.

In the past three years the Leafs have finished 5th last and 2nd last so not sure what you're talking about.

The Leafs have the ability to be the worst as our record has shown.

I don't care what 48 game portion of any season you want to isolate...it doesn't matter.

Over the past three years the Leafs have been one of the worst and nothing has changed except for Mclement being added.

 

[Winreims]

In the past three years the Leafs have finished 5th last and 2nd last so not sure what you're talking about.

The Leafs have the ability to be the worst as our record has shown.

I don't care what 48 game portion of any season you want to isolate...it doesn't matter.

Over the past three years the Leafs have been one of the worst and nothing has changed except for Mclement being added.

Also added JVR, but that's beside the point. This lineup is competitive enough not to finish bottom two in a 48 game season. I don't care what you pull out from our previous 82-game seasons. We have been bad, but outside of one year have not been bottom two-three in the league.

 

[Bomber0104]

Also added JVR, but that's beside the point. This lineup is competitive enough not to finish bottom two in a 48 game season. I don't care what you pull out from our previous 82-game seasons. We have been bad, but outside of one year have not been bottom two-three in the league.

Trade Kessel, Lupul, and Liles and we sure will be.

Plus trading those players gives us a bounty of picks and prospects too.

Blow it up and build from the ashes.

 

[calcal798]

Well if we want to do a proper rebuild this year would probably be the year to do it.

Ship Kessel + Bozak to Minne for Granlund, Coyle, 1st and a dump. Tank for MacKinnon. Go into next year with:

Lupol-Mack-Kadri
JVR-Granlund-Kuli
Coyle-Grabo-Frattin
Brown-Mcclement-Komarov

Gard-Phaneuf
Gunnar-Rielly
Liles-Holzer

FA goalie
Reimer

With the depth we have we could even package Kadri and that pick and maybe something else to pick up Drouin and MacKinnon.

 

[Winreims]

Trade Kessel, Lupul, and Liles and we sure will be.

Plus trading those players gives us a bounty of picks and prospects too.

Blow it up and build from the ashes.

I agree with that, trading those players would put us closer to the bottom. But as of right now, we still have them. Playing the what if game with players is pointless until it actually happens. For example, we could also trade Bozak and Kadri for Luongo and finish 8th. Who knows what Nonis will do. If I were to guess, I would say we are NOT heading for a full "Edmonton style rebuild" with no playoffs for the next 4-5 years. This franchise cannot purposely go almost fifteen years without a playoff spot, I don't believe MLSE would allow it. Looking at our roster as it is heading into the season, it isn't for sure that we will be a 29th-30th place team. It's too competitive of a lineup to finish that low.

 

[cup67]

leafs are ranked 20th in prospects
nonas better start making some moves to get rid of some vets. conn. lambo, mac.
then let some young players play, finish as far down in the standings as posibale, last, 2nd last.
trade for some young good players.
summer add top ufa's pay them 10 mil 7 years, getzlaf, perry, face of the leafs

 

[Bomber0104]

I agree with that, trading those players would put us closer to the bottom. But as of right now, we still have them. Playing the what if game with players is pointless until it actually happens. For example, we could also trade Bozak and Kadri for Luongo and finish 8th. Who knows what Nonis will do. If I were to guess, I would say we are NOT heading for a full "Edmonton style rebuild" with no playoffs for the next 4-5 years. This franchise cannot purposely go almost fifteen years without a playoff spot, I don't believe MLSE would allow it. Looking at our roster as it is heading into the season, it isn't for sure that we will be a 29th-30th place team. It's too competitive of a lineup to finish that low.

Playing the "what-if" game is how every manager in the world makes decisions. If I make this decision...what will happen? So why not play along?

I don't think the franchise should allow what has happened in the past to distract them from what the best available option going forward should be. I don't care if the team has gone 40 years without a playoff appearance. The best decision is the best decision irrespective of anything that has been going on prior to it.

 

[cup67]

Well if we want to do a proper rebuild this year would probably be the year to do it.

Ship Kessel + Bozak to Minne for Granlund, Coyle, 1st and a dump. Tank for MacKinnon. Go into next year with:

perry-getzlaf-Kadri
JVR-Granlund-forsberg
Coyle-Grabo-kuli
Brown-Mcclement-Komarov




FA goalie
Reimer

lupol has got to go to for a 1st , offer getzlaf and perry 10mil over 7 years.
phaneuf has to go, maybe to wasington for forsberg

 

[Winreims]

Playing the "what-if" game is how every manager in the world makes decisions. If I make this decision...what will happen? So why not play along?

I don't think the franchise should allow what has happened in the past to distract them from what the best available option going forward should be. I don't care if the team has gone 40 years without a playoff appearance. The best decision is the best decision irrespective of anything that has been going on prior to it.

But you and I are not general managers. And we do not know what direction Nonis truly wants to go in. You and I may feel a certain way, but it doesn't mean that the real people in charge feel that way. If history shows anything, it's that this franchise is not going to do a rebuild in which they purposely miss the playoffs for years on end (like Florida, NYI, Edmonton, etc). Some fans may want it, but MLSE and management may want to be just competitive enough.

 

[Bomber0104]

But you and I are not general managers. And we do not know what direction Nonis truly wants to go in. You and I may feel a certain way, but it doesn't mean that the real people in charge feel that way. If history shows anything, it's that this franchise is not going to do a rebuild in which they purposely miss the playoffs for years on end (like Florida, NYI, Edmonton, etc). Some fans may want it, but MLSE and management may want to be just competitive enough.

The customer is always right.

If we all become informed customers then MLSE will have to listen to us.

 

[showtime8]

At this point, I think a complete rebuild would be pointless.

It would mean another 6 years before the Leafs would even think about contending and another 3 years before you would see a resemblance of a rebuild. And by that time, it would mean a new GM and the possibility of a whole new scheme if the board doesn't see any sort of production.

Right now as the team stands, I think that you have enough good complimentary players that would help bring along your cornerstones of the franchise, but you need to find those guys. If Morgan Rielly is a franchise player and you are going to do a complete rebuild, then he needs to play right now and you have to forgive any mistakes that he makes. If James Reimer is your franchise goaltender, then he needs to play 80% of the games and again, fans should forgive any mental or other mistakes that he makes throughout the season.

So here's what a complete rebuild would look like:

Forwards

xxxx -xxxxx - Kessel
-----> Lupul played well with Kessel, but Lupul hasn't played a full season in a couple years and might get you something for a team that could be contending. Bozak isn't going to be your 2nd line centre for the future and is gone.


van Riemsdyk - Grabovski - xxxx
------> Grabo's contract says that he's going to be an important piece in the top 6 and although I like JVR, he could play on the 1st or 2nd line.


xxxxx - McClement - Fattin
------> McClement stays on this team to surround the young talent with leadership and guidance. Frattin is young and can score, but should be expected to learn how to kill penalties and play more special teams.


Broll/Creszeni -xxxx - Brown
-------> The 4th line plays a big part on a young and developing team. Generally in a long season, you are going to have guys that will have off nights and fatigue will have an issue on young guys. So you are going to have guys set a standard of play and inject some life into the line-up. But you should also expect them to kill some penalties.


Traded: Connolly, Lupul, Lombardi, MacArthur, Bozak, Steckl, Kulemin



Defence

Gardiner - xxxxx

Rielly - xxxxxx

Liles - Holzer


Traded: Phaneuf, Komisarek, Franson, Gunnarsson
- Phaneuf is your captain, but if you are hoping for a complete rebuild, then you have to accept that for younger guys to play a lot and learn, Phaneuf can't be logging 25 minutes a game. I added in Gunnarsson too because he's not a veteran enough to support such an offensively dynamic players like Rielly and Gardiner.




Goalies

James Reimer

xxxxx

------> The goalie situation is such a tough one to pin point. You need to have a goalie that has an easy going personality and won't get rattled if he gets shellshocked. With such a young team, Reimer is the perfect goalie because of a couple reasons. 1. Goalies don't hit their peak until they hit 26 or 27. Look around the league as to when goalies started winning a lot and playing their best. (Pekka Rinne, Luongo, Schneider, Quick, etc.) 2. Reimer is a big goalie and before his injury, didn't move around a lot and played angles very well. 3. Reimer has an easy going temperment and should be good with the workload.

 

[Winreims]

The customer is always right.

If we all become informed customers then MLSE will have to listen to us.

I agree, but good luck with that. Not ALL Leaf fans want to purposely miss the playoffs for the next four-five years after not having one appearance in eight years. And even if we shipped everyone out and tanked, knowing the luck of this franchise and knowing that a lot of luck is involved - we'd **** it up somehow. We'd either draft duds or lose the lottery each year. Look at the Islanders, Jackets, Panthers, and their long never ending rebuilds. Where did it take them?

All I'm saying is that there is not ONE right way to build a contending team. And a lot more goes into it than simply finishing 28th-30th for four-five years in a row.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

i agree. a "proper rebuild" doesn't exist in the real world. i never understand what people mean when they talk about this.

can anyone explain?

Edmonton did a "proper rebuild" and have excellent young talent such as Eberle, Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov, and Schultz.

Toronto did an "improper rebuild" and have young talent such as Reilly, Gardiner, Colbourne, and Kadri. (I don't consider a grizzled veteran going into his 8th full nhl season to be a "young player" anymore).

It's all pretty simple.
I'm quite surprised that you would ask such a question, to be honest.
Were you just joking around?

 

[Winreims]

Edmonton did a "proper rebuild" and have excellent young talent such as Eberle, Hall, Hopkins, Yakupov, and Schultz.

Toronto did an "improper rebuild" and have young talent such as Reilly, Gardiner, Colbourne, and Kadri. (I don't consider a grizzled veteran going into his 8th full nhl season to be a "young player" anymore).

It's all pretty simple.
I'm quite surprised that you would ask such a question, to be honest.
Were you just joking around?

Edmonton got lucky, let's not kid ourselves here. And they still have a long way to go with regards to D and goaltending (and let's see them re-sign all of those forwards years down the line..)

 

[Philkessel]

Do you guys sit at home on game one of the season and cheer when the other team scores?

 

[ConnorTO]

Blow it up and build from the ashes.

sorry Nonis isn't going to "blow it up" and build from ashe

no one here is going to wish the Leafs to blow out and tank this year
no Leaf fan is going to wanna spend 2 hours every game to watch their team lose

if you dont enjoy seeing the Leafs win their games in general
you probably might wanna recheck if you're really a fan