Anyone Else Get 2019-2020 Vibes From This Team?

[Niagara Bill]

Also consider Gretzky was traded to Los Angeles with his bodyguard Marty McSorley. At the end of the day, muscle isn’t the primary reason why any elite player is elite or any championship team wins their championship but they help create a comfortable and safe work environment for everyone else to do their best work. That concept seems completely lost sometimes.

You can say it better than I can.! Thanks

 

[thewave]

Maybe we can dump Cowan and Minten for a couple of 3rd pairing d-men who are gone in 3 months... asset management smashment management .... every year we need cheap controllable skilled players to fill out the roster, every year we trade away those cheap controllable assets in layers or picks, then every year we are forced to pick scraps off the garbage heap and every year we get the same or similar results. This roster is not worth trading two legit top 6 players , just to see them choke a week into the playoffs. Keep your picks, keep your prospects. Let this team embarrass themselves again. 50% of the time they show up according to Keefe... you have 3 of the top 10 paid players and you are a WC team.... f-ing bravo plan Shanny...



Blaming for what? Signing a stable of useless UFA'a? How can we blame him he hasn't done a f-ing thing since he got here to help this team, everything he has done is EA sports virtual manager terrible.

Perfectly said.

Its a death spiral or cycle.

Ends when the overpaid core players choose to leave or are too old. We have little assets to rebuild with and have to wait 5 years. Matthews could just have had enough by the end the new contract and we have little picks or prospects. Then what?

To me they have to be wilfully ignorant to this. That or actually short sighted borderline incompetent

 

[Martin Skoula]

In one offseason, we went from a comfortable playoff team over the past ~3 years to a team scrapping for the wild card.

Tre looked at the roster and tried to improve secondary scoring and grit. That gutted our defensive abilities, which is very apparent, and the toughness/scoring hasn't come through. We also had a roster with versatility - PK options, guys who can play multiple positions, etc.. now you're largely locked into a certain roster because that's been lost.

I get shitting on playoff success, but to suggest Tre was helpless by the misfortune of inheriting a top seed in the East with all of its core locked up for the year is insanity.

He only had 20 million to spend to fill in secondary scoring and bottom of the lineup D, how do you expect him to do anything handcuffed like that? Find me one GM in the league that can get more than 80 points for 15 mil I’ll wait.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Lol. The best hockey player ever was not successful because of 4th line goons. Good lord.
The Leafs have had a number of "Maroon types" over the years, but Marner does not need any of that to win.
Vegas won on the backs of their core, good defense, hot goaltending, and timely scoring hot streaks from depth pieces.

Treliving wanted Bertuzzi because he was fooled into thinking that he was still an effective supporting player and top-six producer.
People want Tanev because he's an effective top-4 right-handed defenseman that played well with our top defenseman a while ago.

Wow, and Mitchy has won so much as a Leaf, even while playing with AM, who is much better. If he doesn't need Maroon type depth pieces, let's see it.

Even the great Montreal teams had Maroon types, Bobby Orr and Esposito needed Maroon types. Patrick Kane and Towes needed
Maroon types.
They need the space and protection to display their magic.
BYE BYE Dekes

 

[Stephen]

This wasn't even about blame. This was about you trying to pretend that the obvious 13 point drop off we're experiencing wasn't actually a drop off, to absolve the new GM you like. I'd love for the new GM to give me a reason to like him, but I'm not going to avoid the facts or avoid placing blame where it's deserved.

I’m not a Treliving fan, I don’t like his free agency crop, Klingberg was a joke, Reaves is useless, Bertuzzi and Domi fit like square pegs to a round hole.

But not of the team flaws are even attributable to his decisions as GM. The team is taking a step back, there is decline in multiple roster positions, the cheap goaltending is biting us in the butt, the franchise is not in the best shape. So much work needs to be done. Teams around us are more competitive.

But not every topic needs to be about missing Kyle Dubas and lashing out at the new guy.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I despised Tavares, Matthews and Marner's reaction to the Rielly incident. At least Nylander sort of did something.

Tavares is the captain. f***ing do something, anything to show a pulse during your tenure as the Leafs captain, please I'm begging you.

Marner, you are embarrassing when it comes to the extra stuff.

Matthews, you are a f***ing beast. Please stop being scared of physical confrontation and smack somebody.

We have by far the most embarrassing core of any team in the NHL. Great players, really good players, but I don't know how they managed to end up with this core.

Oh well.

 

[GoonieFace]

He only had 20 million to spend to fill in secondary scoring and bottom of the lineup D, how do you expect him to do anything handcuffed like that? Find me one GM in the league that can get more than 80 points for 15 mil I’ll wait.

I’d like some suggestions on what free agents available would have been better, but don’t bother, I’ve seen the list and it’s crap. Also, knowing full well that this off-season they will have little space to work with, so larger long term contracts were probably not on the radar.

So while he had cap space this offseason, the options were pretty limited, and trading assets we don’t have wasn’t really an option either.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I’d like some suggestions on what free agents available would have been better, but don’t bother, I’ve seen the list and it’s crap. Also, knowing full well that this off-season they will have little space to work with, so larger long term contracts were probably not on the radar.

So while he had cap space this offseason, the options were pretty limited, and trading assets we don’t have wasn’t really an option either.

And yet he somehow managed to get 3 of the worst performing of that bad list. Didn’t add a single competent penalty killer after multiple left and decided to focus on one-way 0 utility players that are actively hurting you if they’re not scoring.

 

[thewave]

I’d like some suggestions on what free agents available would have been better, but don’t bother, I’ve seen the list and it’s crap. Also, knowing full well that this off-season they will have little space to work with, so larger long term contracts were probably not on the radar.

So while he had cap space this offseason, the options were pretty limited, and trading assets we don’t have wasn’t really an option either.

The way they are managing our cap, we are going to be asking free agents to come for free. Eventually the players are going to figure out they are not coming here to win, play extended term but be a meat sack on the ice for a year. Then the good FAs will hard pass on Toronto.

Thats when the average fan will wake up to the fact we arent winning a cup.

 

[Stephen]

And yet he somehow managed to get 3 of the worst performing of that bad list. Didn’t add a single competent penalty killer after multiple left and decided to focus on one-way 0 utility players that are actively hurting you if they’re not scoring.

In hindsight we probably could have just re-signed Holl and Kerfoot and minimized the regular season disruption to the team. The devil you know kind of thing. And whatever they did to Sammy in arbitration… jeez.

But as shit as the results have been we also have to remember Reaves, Klingberg, Bertuzzi and Domi weren’t exactly the first order of business in the offseason.

What was important was getting Auston Matthews re-signed and projecting calm, business as usual with enough dynamic roster turnover to get Matthews to commit. Which thankfully happened.

But yeah, the mercenary add ons haven’t been good. Internally, Tavares, Brodie, Samsonov have taken big steps back. That’s your 2C, 2D and 1G failing to deliver.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Wow, and Mitchy has won so much as a Leaf

The Leafs as a whole haven't won yet, but not because of goons. Heck, if we replaced the goons we've employed for better players, our chances would have been better.

I’m not a Treliving fan, I don’t like his free agency crop, Klingberg was a joke, Reaves is useless, Bertuzzi and Domi fit like square pegs to a round hole.
But not of the team flaws are even attributable to his decisions as GM. The team is taking a step back, there is decline in multiple roster positions, the cheap goaltending is biting us in the butt, the franchise is not in the best shape. So much work needs to be done. Teams around us are more competitive.
But not every topic needs to be about missing Kyle Dubas and lashing out at the new guy.

Teams around us are not more competitive. There's nothing to support that. For every team around us that experienced improvement this season, there's two around us that experienced the opposite. We've just fallen back to a lesser, more crowded level. And while there are always external impacts outside of the GM, Treliving and the things he both did and didn't do this past offseason are responsible for a lot of the team's flaws. You're the one that brought up Treliving and Dubas, and the discussion that attempted to downplay the GM's impact on our results, so if you no longer want topics to be about that, tell yourself.

 

[Martin Skoula]

In hindsight we probably could have just re-signed Holl and Kerfoot and minimized the regular season disruption to the team. The devil you know kind of thing. And whatever they did to Sammy in arbitration… jeez.

But as shit as the results have been we also have to remember Reaves, Klingberg, Bertuzzi and Domi weren’t exactly the first order of business in the offseason.

What was important was getting Auston Matthews re-signed and projecting calm, business as usual with enough dynamic roster turnover to get Matthews to commit. Which thankfully happened.

But yeah, the mercenary add ons haven’t been good. Internally, Tavares, Brodie, Samsonov have taken big steps back. That’s your 2C, 2D and 1G failing to deliver.

It’s just an absurd argument on its face, there was nothing good on the market so we had to go and spend up to the cap ceiling on dogshit because.. well we just did ok! As if picking up JVR, Duchene, or any of the 1-2mil 1 year D fillers and leaving a couple mil available for picking up a Zadorov for cheap wasn’t an option.

Everyone Tre signed other than Domi and the minimum wage guys would cost assets to get rid of without retention right now.

 

[Gallagbi]

I’m not a Treliving fan, I don’t like his free agency crop, Klingberg was a joke, Reaves is useless, Bertuzzi and Domi fit like square pegs to a round hole.

But not of the team flaws are even attributable to his decisions as GM. The team is taking a step back, there is decline in multiple roster positions, the cheap goaltending is biting us in the butt, the franchise is not in the best shape. So much work needs to be done. Teams around us are more competitive.

But not every topic needs to be about missing Kyle Dubas and lashing out at the new guy.

Its a weird position to say the $14M in offseason signings have been poor, but it's not relevant to bring up the GM.

We gambled on a few things this offseason and haven't seen success come from it. Toughness and secondary scoring were the major focuses at the expense of defensive abilities and versatility. We're seeing the losses, but no real gains.

 

[Stephen]

It’s just an absurd argument on its face, there was nothing good on the market so we had to go and spend up to the cap ceiling on dogshit because.. well we just did ok! As if picking up JVR, Duchene, or any of the 1-2mil 1 year D fillers and leaving a couple mil available for picking up a Zadorov for cheap wasn’t an option.

Everyone Tre signed other than Domi and the minimum wage guys would cost assets to get rid of without retention right now.

Who is arguing Treliving did a good job on the free agency market when Simon Benoit is his best acquisition?

From a roster flaw perspective Leafs decline isn’t just down to Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves and Klingberg though. In addition to failing to do the job Bunting, Engvall, Holl and Kerfoot and Engvall did last season, you’re looking at Tavares being one year older and ten years worse. Samsonov was your 1A option turned waiver fodder. Brodie is basically no longer a Top 4 defenseman when he was slotted to be our top 2.

So there’s things Treliving is responsible for, and other factors that he really isn’t.

 

[Stephen]

Its a weird position to say the $14M in offseason signings have been poor, but it's not relevant to bring up the GM.

We gambled on a few things this offseason and haven't seen success come from it. Toughness and secondary scoring were the major focuses at the expense of defensive abilities and versatility. We're seeing the losses, but no real gains.

Some people seem to be taking the position that the Leafs were a well oiled machine under Kyle that dumb knuckle dragging Treliving came in and ruined everything.

My retort to that is this team has always been flawed and Treliving’s offseason amounts to a bad duct tape job over something that needs a deeper retooling. Meanwhile other teams are passing us by. You’re not speaking to a Treliving fan. Doesn’t need to go back to Kyle.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Who is arguing Treliving did a good job on the free agency market when Simon Benoit is his best acquisition?

From a roster flaw perspective Leafs decline isn’t just down to Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves and Klingberg though. In addition to failing to do the job Bunting, Engvall, Holl and Kerfoot and Engvall did last season, you’re looking at Tavares being one year older and ten years worse. Samsonov was your 1A option turned waiver fodder. Brodie is basically no longer a Top 4 defenseman when he was slotted to be our top 2.

So there’s things Treliving is responsible for, and other factors that he really isn’t.

I would hope no one is saying he did a good job but enough people are saying he didn’t do a bad job when you consider the circumstances and the FA class. Ignoring the fact that there were better FAs for cheaper than the ones we got, that frames the context as if we are legally obligated to spend to the ceiling regardless of whether there’s anything good to spend it on.

We knew Brodie and Tavares looked bad last year already and neither Samsonov nor Woll have ever handled a starters workload, we know we let most of our PK unit walk, it’s not like these are shocking surprises that snuck up on us. Leaving some cap available for in-season adjustments, taking advantage of situations like Zadorov or Kane, deadline adds seems like the obvious move. Signing cheaper two way utility UFAs that are easier to flip than Bert or Klingberg at their cap hits seems like the obvious move. Leaving some space so you can recoup picks as a middleman retention provider if the season goes south seems wise.

If people want to argue that Tre got left the worst situation ever in the history of GMing, whatever go nuts, but the idea that he had no other options than the ones he chose is pretty funny.

 

[Stephen]

I would hope no one is saying he did a good job but enough people are saying he didn’t do a bad job when you consider the circumstances and the FA class. Ignoring the fact that there were better FAs for cheaper than the ones we got, that frames the context as if we are legally obligated to spend to the ceiling regardless of whether there’s anything good to spend it on.

We knew Brodie and Tavares looked bad last year already and neither Samsonov nor Woll have ever handled a starters workload, we know we let most of our PK unit walk, it’s not like these are shocking surprises that snuck up on us. Leaving some cap available for in-season adjustments, taking advantage of situations like Zadorov or Kane, deadline adds seems like the obvious move. Signing cheaper two way utility UFAs that are easier to flip than Bert or Klingberg at their cap hits seems like the obvious move. Leaving some space so you can recoup picks as a middleman retention provider if the season goes south seems wise.

If people want to argue that Tre got left the worst situation ever in the history of GMing, whatever go nuts, but the idea that he had no other options than the ones he chose is pretty funny.

Can we just saw the bicycle in half and say Treliving did a mediocre job parachuting into a delicate situation left by Kyle’s untimely departure and we can all go home unhappy?

 

[Niagara Bill]

The Leafs as a whole haven't won yet, but not because of goons. Heck, if we replaced the goons we've employed for better players, our chances would have been better.

Teams around us are not more competitive. There's nothing to support that. For every team around us that experienced improvement this season, there's two around us that experienced the opposite. We've just fallen back to a lesser, more crowded level. And while there are always external impacts outside of the GM, Treliving and the things he both did and didn't do this past offseason are responsible for a lot of the team's flaws. You're the one that brought up Treliving and Dubas, and the discussion that attempted to downplay the GM's impact on our results, so if you no longer want topics to be about that, tell yourself.

There is info to support that. Mitchy has won 1 series, PERIOD. and I never said goon. Maroon is not a goon, but has played and scored in key games. Reaves is a goon, Parros was a goon. Laroque was a goon, Semenko was a goon, Schultz was a goon.
Mitchy is so timid, without space and protection under present playoff rules he cannot win. He is Patrick Kane, bug Kane was given space by his team mates. CUP WIN.

This is the end, I will not respond to such lunacy. When you learn about winning hockey you will change.

 

[hullsy47]

There is info to support that. Mitchy has won 1 series, PERIOD. and I never said goon. Maroon is not a goon, but has played and scored in key games. Reaves is a goon, Parros was a goon. Laroque was a goon, Semenko was a goon, Schultz was a goon.
Mitchy is so timid, without space and protection under present playoff rules he cannot win. He is Patrick Kane, bug Kane was given space by his team mates. CUP WIN.

This is the end, I will not respond to such lunacy. When you learn about winning hockey you will change.

Basically the core 4 don't work

 

[Gallagbi]

Some people seem to be taking the position that the Leafs were a well oiled machine under Kyle that dumb knuckle dragging Treliving came in and ruined everything.

The Leafs were a better team last year and really for the past 3-4 years. I don't think anyone is saying they were perfect, but you see that were not as strong this year compared to years past, right?

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Vegas won on the backs of their core, good defense, hot goaltending, and timely scoring hot streaks from depth pieces.

What happens if you can't afford good defense or quality depth pieces because your core is overpaid and there's not enough to go around?

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs were a better team last year and really for the past 3-4 years. I don't think anyone is saying they were perfect, but you see that were not as strong this year compared to years past, right?

I think we call agree that the Leafs needed to build on the 2022 and 2023 teams to take the next level towards championship status and that the 2024 team has been a big step backwards.

On the ice, I don’t think it’s controversial to assign the biggest share of the blame to John Tavares decline, Ilya Samsonov’s crisis, TJ Brodie’s decline, John Klingberg’s complete breakdown, Tyler Bertuzzi being ineffective. Max Domi has underpeformed a bit, Ryan Reaves is useless, and probably a poor balance of special teams PK etc.

My diagnosis is this past summer has been a cheap renovation on a house showing some wear and tear. What we need to do now is strip it back a bit, be smart with the budget and make some bigger fixes.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Its a weird position to say the $14M in offseason signings have been poor, but it's not relevant to bring up the GM.
We gambled on a few things this offseason and haven't seen success come from it. Toughness and secondary scoring were the major focuses at the expense of defensive abilities and versatility. We're seeing the losses, but no real gains.

Funny how it's suddenly irrelevant to discuss GM performance, after years of every single thread turning into a GM debate.

Maroon is not a goon, but has played and scored in key games.

Maroon is a 4th liner who was dumped this past offseason. He can provide a 4th line impact, some entertainment, and pot the occasional goal, but contrary to your claim, he is clearly not "more valued in the playoffs than Mitchy." Marner is an elite player, his performance and success is not dictated by 4th liners, and every single hockey person in the world would take him over Maroon in the playoffs.

What happens if you can't afford good defense or quality depth pieces because your core is overpaid and there's not enough to go around?

Not really a concern for us, since we can afford good defense and quality depth pieces, like we had for years prior to this one.

From a roster flaw perspective Leafs decline isn’t just down to Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves and Klingberg though. In addition to failing to do the job Bunting, Engvall, Holl and Kerfoot and Engvall did last season, you’re looking at Tavares being one year older and ten years worse. Samsonov was your 1A option turned waiver fodder. Brodie is basically no longer a Top 4 defenseman when he was slotted to be our top 2.

We're on pace to get more goals and points from our core 4 than last year, so blaming Tavares being snakebitten doesn't really fly. Samsonov struggled through the first half, but overall, we've still received above league average goaltending this season. We've experienced much worse goaltending over the years. Brodie has struggled this year in a top pairing role, but that's been amplified by our defensive support being stripped. He'd probably be fine in a reduced top-4 role if we hadn't left a giant hole in it and our PK.

Our main roster flaws right now are scoring depth, PKing, defense, and goaltending. Treliving's hands are all over that, with both what he did and what he chose not to do last offseason.

 

[GoonieFace]

Funny how it's suddenly irrelevant to discuss GM performance, after years of every single thread turning into a GM debate.

Maroon is a 4th liner who was dumped this past offseason. He can provide a 4th line impact, some entertainment, and pot the occasional goal, but contrary to your claim, he is clearly not "more valued in the playoffs than Mitchy." Marner is an elite player, his performance and success is not dictated by 4th liners, and every single hockey person in the world would take him over Maroon in the playoffs.

Not really a concern for us, since we can afford good defense and quality depth pieces, like we had for years prior to this one.

We're on pace to get more goals and points from our core 4 than last year, so blaming Tavares being snakebitten doesn't really fly. Samsonov struggled through the first half, but overall, we've still received above league average goaltending this season. We've experienced much worse goaltending over the years. Brodie has struggled this year in a top pairing role, but that's been amplified by our defensive support being stripped. He'd probably be fine in a reduced top-4 role if we hadn't left a giant hole in it and our PK.

Our main roster flaws right now are scoring depth, PKing, defense, and goaltending. Treliving's hands are all over that, with both what he did and what he chose not to do last offseason.

Same defence as last year basically. And it’s been discussed ad nauseam about the amazing defensive forwards we lost (Kerfoot and no one else except deadline deals that played like 13 games)

Although he had some cap space this off-season, that is pretty much gone for next year, while trying to fill a lot of holes. But I forgot we have Steeves and Abcradabra to save the day.

No judgement on Tre until this offseason is over, than we can see if he messes it up. He was handed a turd, that much is obvious

 

[Stephen]

Funny how it's suddenly irrelevant to discuss GM performance, after years of every single thread turning into a GM debate.

I wouldn’t say it’s irrelevant but more circular and tiresome.

I would even support a Brad Treliving firing so we don’t have to hear about how Tre ruined Dubas’ program anymore.