News Article: Any thoughts on Jiri Hudler...??

[lamp9post]

I'd really give some thought to adding Hudler.

If we are planning on competing this season, Hudler would be a better top-6 option than Ghetto, Hudon, Carr, or whoever else we hope can win the spot. I wouldn't mind the following top 6:

Pacioretty - Pleks - Gallagher
Hudler - Galchenyuk - Radulov

You split up the 30 goal scorers across two lines, give Galchenyuk some good, veteran playmakers in Hudler and Radulov, and give the tough minutes to Plek's line.

 

[MXD]

1) He's bigger, won't get knocked off the puck anytime there's the slightest hint of contact and won't be pinned to the boards like a 80's Samantha Fox poster a la DD.

2) The question was is he a better 3rd line centre than DD. The answer is absolutely yes. DD is too small to play against what is normally larger, more physical play. He's a play maker and made his career feeding to the puck to Patches (a top 5 NHL goal scorer) at any cost. He won't have that advantage on the 3rd line. He's also not capable of playing any other position as he's too small to play wing without getting crushed, he's not very good defensively and he can't physically play against larger more physical players. He's also shown he's not as good a goal scorer as Vermette who's put up more goals consistently than DD.

3) As I said in my initial post, I don't see the relevance of comparing him to any other player than DD as that's the spot he'd be taking. Even if he was weaker than they are on defense, he's disproportionately better on offence than they are. So any shortcomings would be offset with the offense and size he brings over those players. Ultimately they are very different players than Vermette, not to mention he can step in to play in the top 6 in case of injury whereas Mitchell and Danault cannot.



Still only looking at 1 year out of a career where he's had far better numbers. Do you judge the entirety of a players career by his last year alone? Does one bad year mean a player can't recover and he'll only get worse? Never taking into account personal issues, desire, motivation etc etc etc.

Those are the type of questions analytics don't cover and can't express. That's why I think you can look to analytics as a useful tool but never as a sum total of how to assess a player. There are plenty of examples of players who had fantastic analytics one year and bombed the next and the same for the "eye test" which is why they should be used in conjunction with each other.

That's a very long post to say, basically " I selectively use everything ".

 

[Sterling Archer]

That's a very long post to say, basically " I selectively use everything ".

Or don't use just one metric to make broad based assumption on a player. Remeber Gilbert's superlative analytics before we signed him?

Just saying, too many posters hang their hat and base their opinion on some smart looking graphs. There's a lot more to it than that.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Still only looking at 1 year out of a career where he's had far better numbers. Do you judge the entirety of a players career by his last year alone? Does one bad year mean a player can't recover and he'll only get worse? Never taking into account personal issues, desire, motivation etc etc etc.

Those are the type of questions analytics don't cover and can't express. That's why I think you can look to analytics as a useful tool but never as a sum total of how to assess a player. There are plenty of examples of players who had fantastic analytics one year and bombed the next and the same for the "eye test" which is why they should be used in conjunction with each other.

Not that I'm judging Vermette specially vs DD as I haven't been following Vermette's career, nor have I paid attention to him last year or the last couple of years...but...
Is it really only 1 year? Hasn't he been declining for several years now? Looking only at stats, (yes, I know you really have to actually watch him to tell but...), it seems he hasn't substantially changed from the prior year. So, assuming (a big assumption I know), I'm correct, than wouldn't that mean the analysis is probably more correct than wrong? I.e. a declining Vermette, just isn't that effective anymore even in comparison to DD?

And, holy crap, did you just reference Samantha Fox? How many of us even knows her? Heck, I only really knew her because she was 'big' for my brothers generation.

 

[Soltantgris]

1) He's bigger, won't get knocked off the puck anytime there's the slightest hint of contact and won't be pinned to the boards like a 80's Samantha Fox poster a la DD.

2) The question was is he a better 3rd line centre than DD. The answer is absolutely yes. DD is too small to play against what is normally larger, more physical play. He's a play maker and made his career feeding to the puck to Patches (a top 5 NHL goal scorer) at any cost. He won't have that advantage on the 3rd line. He's also not capable of playing any other position as he's too small to play wing without getting crushed, he's not very good defensively and he can't physically play against larger more physical players. He's also shown he's not as good a goal scorer as Vermette who's put up more goals consistently than DD.

3) As I said in my initial post, I don't see the relevance of comparing him to any other player than DD as that's the spot he'd be taking. Even if he was weaker than they are on defense, he's disproportionately better on offence than they are. So any shortcomings would be offset with the offense and size he brings over those players. Ultimately they are very different players than Vermette, not to mention he can step in to play in the top 6 in case of injury whereas Mitchell and Danault cannot.



Still only looking at 1 year out of a career where he's had far better numbers. Do you judge the entirety of a players career by his last year alone? Does one bad year mean a player can't recover and he'll only get worse? Never taking into account personal issues, desire, motivation etc etc etc.

Those are the type of questions analytics don't cover and can't express. That's why I think you can look to analytics as a useful tool but never as a sum total of how to assess a player. There are plenty of examples of players who had fantastic analytics one year and bombed the next and the same for the "eye test" which is why they should be used in conjunction with each other.

Well, DD just got his worst year too. And when analytic + eyes test (arizona fan overall reaction) agree, I guess we can assume there is some truth no ?

 

[TheLastShift]

With all due respect, I don't understand why anyone wants Vermette. No, he is not an upgrade on anything anymore. Yes, as recently as two years ago he may have been, but he is done.

It's like the people still clinging to hope that a guy like Mike Richards will re-discover his form. Vermette is now a poor man's Torrey Mitchell.

Did I really just read this haha.... He's done? I don't think so. He can play on many teams 3rd or 4th line, obviously not a top 6 but he is far from done. Give the guy a little credit, saying he's done is insanely ignorant... so is comparing him to Torrey Mitchell.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Not that I'm judging Vermette specially vs DD as I haven't been following Vermette's career, nor have I paid attention to him last year or the last couple of years...but...
Is it really only 1 year? Hasn't he been declining for several years now? Looking only at stats, (yes, I know you really have to actually watch him to tell but...), it seems he hasn't substantially changed from the prior year. So, assuming (a big assumption I know), I'm correct, than wouldn't that mean the analysis is probably more correct than wrong? I.e. a declining Vermette, just isn't that effective anymore even in comparison to DD?

And, holy crap, did you just reference Samantha Fox? How many of us even knows her? Heck, I only really knew her because she was 'big' for my brothers generation.

I'm not under any delussion that Vermette is trending upward in his career. As a 3rd line centre who could move to the top 6 in a pinch, I'd say he's a better choice. Even with his abysmal year, he still got 38 points versus DD's 29. Outside of his stint in Chicago, he's put up consistently good numbers through his career and is good for 15-20 goals. He has better size, scores more goals and outscored DD last year as well. He also played with Domi and Duclair who are good young players but definatly not Patches who is a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL. When he was pulled off with Max, his numbers plummeted into basement and his career high in goals is 16 while averaging close to 11 goals a year.

So even in a down year he's still out performing DD despite the analytics and just 1 year ago, Chicago thought he was worth a 1st round pick. Montreal's been said to have been shopping DD for awhile now and can't get anything for him.

I guess I aged myself with the Samantha Fox comment.

Well, DD just got his worst year too. And when analytic + eyes test (arizona fan overall reaction) agree, I guess we can assume there is some truth no ?

Both off their worst years and Vermette still had 11 more points than DD.

I've been watching DD for the past few years and it's very obvious he's not a 1st line or top 6 player and last year showed he has trouble playing against bigger, rougher competition. He can't play top 6 and he's too small to play bottom 6 and can only play at centre, where's he supposed to play? He also makes $3.5 MILLION per season, not that it affects his on ice play, but does go to show he's eating up cap unecessarily.

Vermette > DD
Vermette at $1Mish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD at $3.5M

 

[Le Barron de HF]

I'm not under any delussion that Vermette is trending upward in his career. As a 3rd line centre who could move to the top 6 in a pinch, I'd say he's a better choice. Even with his abysmal year, he still got 38 points versus DD's 29. Outside of his stint in Chicago, he's put up consistently good numbers through his career and is good for 15-20 goals. He has better size, scores more goals and outscored DD last year as well. He also played with Domi and Duclair who are good young players but definatly not Patches who is a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL. When he was pulled off with Max, his numbers plummeted into basement and his career high in goals is 16 while averaging close to 11 goals a year.

So even in a down year he's still out performing DD despite the analytics and just 1 year ago, Chicago thought he was worth a 1st round pick. Montreal's been said to have been shopping DD for awhile now and can't get anything for him.

I guess I aged myself with the Samantha Fox comment.


Both off their worst years and Vermette still had 11 more points than DD.

I've been watching DD for the past few years and it's very obvious he's not a 1st line or top 6 player and last year showed he has trouble playing against bigger, rougher competition. He can't play top 6 and he's too small to play bottom 6 and can only play at centre, where's he supposed to play? He also makes $3.5 MILLION per season, not that it affects his on ice play, but does go to show he's eating up cap unecessarily.

Vermette > DD
Vermette at $1Mish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD at $3.5M

The pro scouting for the Hawks has been nothing to write about in the last few years honestly: Daley for Scuderi, Vermette for 1st + Dahlbeck, Timonen for a 2nd + 3rd, Runblad for 2nd, Handzus for a 4th. People trash our pro scouting but oof.

 

[Sterling Archer]

The pro scouting for the Hawks has been nothing to write about in the last few years honestly: Daley for Scuderi, Vermette for 1st + Dahlbeck, Timonen for a 2nd + 3rd, Runblad for 2nd, Handzus for a 4th. People trash our pro scouting but oof.

On a side note, isn't Gauthier a proscout for the Hawks??

 

[Le Barron de HF]

On a side note, isn't Gauthier a proscout for the Hawks??

He's the director of player personnel according to Wikipedia.

 

[Soltantgris]

I'm not under any delussion that Vermette is trending upward in his career. As a 3rd line centre who could move to the top 6 in a pinch, I'd say he's a better choice. Even with his abysmal year, he still got 38 points versus DD's 29. Outside of his stint in Chicago, he's put up consistently good numbers through his career and is good for 15-20 goals. He has better size, scores more goals and outscored DD last year as well. He also played with Domi and Duclair who are good young players but definatly not Patches who is a top 5 goal scorer in the NHL. When he was pulled off with Max, his numbers plummeted into basement and his career high in goals is 16 while averaging close to 11 goals a year.

So even in a down year he's still out performing DD despite the analytics and just 1 year ago, Chicago thought he was worth a 1st round pick. Montreal's been said to have been shopping DD for awhile now and can't get anything for him.

I guess I aged myself with the Samantha Fox comment.


Both off their worst years and Vermette still had 11 more points than DD.

I've been watching DD for the past few years and it's very obvious he's not a 1st line or top 6 player and last year showed he has trouble playing against bigger, rougher competition. He can't play top 6 and he's too small to play bottom 6 and can only play at centre, where's he supposed to play? He also makes $3.5 MILLION per season, not that it affects his on ice play, but does go to show he's eating up cap unecessarily.

Vermette > DD
Vermette at $1Mish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DD at $3.5M

Vermette c't'une tapette.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Vermette c't'une tapette.

Interesting. Haven't heard such a homophobic comment in awhile.

So you do believe in intangibles afterall.

 

[Tim Raines]

Did I really just read this haha.... He's done? I don't think so. He can play on many teams 3rd or 4th line, obviously not a top 6 but he is far from done. Give the guy a little credit, saying he's done is insanely ignorant... so is comparing him to Torrey Mitchell.

Insanely ignorant? The guy is a 32-year-old on a 6-year decline who just got bought out by one of the league's weakest teams. I hardly think it's a stretch to suggest he's done being a useful player.

If he floats your boat as a depth guy, fine. But let's not pretend he still has much value. Nor is the Mitchell comparison that ridiculous. A bottom six centre who is decent on draws and can skate, but doesn't add much offence. Again, not a big stretch.

 

[De Montreal]

maybe giving a try out to Russell makes more sense... lefthanded dman we can move the puck well.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

I'd rather sign Shipachev in december than go for hudler or vermette

 

[Tim Raines]

I'd rather sign Shipachev in december than go for hudler or vermette

I'm definitely with you on that. Granted I've only watched him a few times at the Worlds and read the scouting reports, but I think he's a player that will help us a lot more.

 

[Koivu777]

Really would like to see Hudler given a tryout to play on the 2nd line. Also, Vermette would be an upgrade over Desharnais as 3rd line center.

One can only dream.....

 

[Whitesnake]

Great, so analytics only told us that based on last season, Vermette isn't worth it. Same analytics ALSO says that Desharnais, at 57%, should be a top 6 player. Somehow, the Vermette analysis will stand while people will totally forget about this Desharnais stat. So to people who do not want Vermette based on that analysis.....do you want Desharnais on a top 6 role? This analytical tells you he should!!!!

Just wondering....are those analytics people who solely and only believes in that analysis to prove a point, has done the exercice for every player in the NHL and it makes sense everytime? What was the analysis again that was telling us that Seabrook was much worst than an average d-man? And can there be other inconsistencies? Or it,s 99% right?

So Desharnais, our David Desharnais, is WAY MUCH BETTER and it's NOT EVEN CLOSE? Sad, I mean, I think analytics are important....but something like that just puts a big question mark on it....

 

[Tim Raines]

Whitesnake, for me, the Vermette thing isn't based on analytics. I agree with you that historically he has been a better player than DD, but he hasn't passed my eye test at all in the last couple years.

The fact he was getting healthy scratched in the 2015 playoffs is a big indicator. He just couldn't accomplish anything out there and things didn't improve this year. Every time I watched Phoenix, I just saw a fairly useless plug. And I did like Vermette enough back in his prime.

Analytics may bolster the case and that's fine. I just don't think we'd be getting the player some remember from 2011-2013.

 

[Soltantgris]

Great, so analytics only told us that based on last season, Vermette isn't worth it. Same analytics ALSO says that Desharnais, at 57%, should be a top 6 player. Somehow, the Vermette analysis will stand while people will totally forget about this Desharnais stat. So to people who do not want Vermette based on that analysis.....do you want Desharnais on a top 6 role? This analytical tells you he should!!!!

Just wondering....are those analytics people who solely and only believes in that analysis to prove a point, has done the exercice for every player in the NHL and it makes sense everytime? What was the analysis again that was telling us that Seabrook was much worst than an average d-man? And can there be other inconsistencies? Or it,s 99% right?

So Desharnais, our David Desharnais, is WAY MUCH BETTER and it's NOT EVEN CLOSE? Sad, I mean, I think analytics are important....but something like that just puts a big question mark on it....

Why are you pointing 1 stat ? I mean, there is plenty of stats out there - and on top of it, there is a lot of people watching games. Vermette is not anymore a good player. Not productive enought to be a top 6, not defensively good enought to be a good bottom 6 role player, no reason to use Desharnais as a comparable. Most people on this site don't want Desharnais on the team anymore anyway !

Love when people create both side of an argument to win some ghost point on 'da' internet lol

 

[Whitesnake]

Whitesnake, for me, the Vermette thing isn't based on analytics. I agree with you that historically he has been a better player than DD, but he hasn't passed my eye test at all in the last couple years.

The fact he was getting healthy scratched in the 2015 playoffs is a big indicator. He just couldn't accomplish anything out there and things didn't improve this year. Every time I watched Phoenix, I just saw a fairly useless plug. And I did like Vermette enough back in his prime.

Analytics may bolster the case and that's fine. I just don't think we'd be getting the player some remember from 2011-2013.

It's all good. Thing is, it's never about getting a top player, it's always about improving. And my eye test tells me that he would be better in a 3rd line C role than DD. But hey, analytics just told us that DD is even a top 6 player, so I guess we should be extending DD for another 4 years real soon.

Love when people create both side of an argument to win some ghost point on 'da' internet lol

You mean, like you regularly keep doing?

Why am I pointing at one stat? 'Cause it,s the resume of all the stats maybe?

 

[Soltantgris]

It's all good. Thing is, it's never about getting a top player, it's always about improving. And my eye test tells me that he would be better in a 3rd line C role than DD. But hey, analytics just told us that DD is even a top 6 player, so I guess we should be extending DD for another 4 years real soon.



You mean, like you regularly keep doing?

Why am I pointing at one stat? 'Cause it,s the resume of all the stats maybe?

Regularly ? I did it exactly one time here, ever! - and it was not corsi related. Was penality differential (vermette -19, worst of the entire NHL).

Don't lie.

 

[Brainiac]

Not if you're Pierre Houde. In that case it's 6 letters long.

JIERGÉ.

Good point. It's all about perspective then.

 

[hockey31]

I'd really give some thought to adding Hudler.

If we are planning on competing this season, Hudler would be a better top-6 option than Ghetto, Hudon, Carr, or whoever else we hope can win the spot. I wouldn't mind the following top 6:

Pacioretty - Pleks - Gallagher
Hudler - Galchenyuk - Radulov

You split up the 30 goal scorers across two lines, give Galchenyuk some good, veteran playmakers in Hudler and Radulov, and give the tough minutes to Plek's line.

Exactly the reason why I think Hudler is a much more valuable option than Vermette (who will fill another bottom 6 position).

I know a lot of people doesn't like Hudler but he proved that he can play on the top 6 and produce at this level. A cheap 1y deal would fill the remaining top 6 spot and by the same time push Shaw to the third line where he deserve to play.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Why are you pointing 1 stat ? I mean, there is plenty of stats out there - and on top of it, there is a lot of people watching games. Vermette is not anymore a good player. Not productive enought to be a top 6, not defensively good enought to be a good bottom 6 role player, no reason to use Desharnais as a comparable. Most people on this site don't want Desharnais on the team anymore anyway !

Love when people create both side of an argument to win some ghost point on 'da' internet lol

So your best arguement is...

Vermette c't'une tapette.

How's this stat line. Vemette 38 point season is catastophic. DD 29 point season and he's "better" than Vermette and half the size. How does this make any sense??

Vermette is definately not the player he was but even at his worse year, he's still 30% better and 100% larger than DD. Vermette over DD is a no brainer IMO.