Injury Report: Any news on Franzen? UPD: Franzen placed on IR

[Bench]

Exactly. How can a fan say with confidence what is or is not worth it to any particular player?

While that is true, it's also true that the likelihood of concussions increases with each subsequent concussion.

So for a player with Franzen's history, the odds are stacked against him more than the average player.

 

[f1seb]

While that is true, it's also true that the likelihood of concussions increases with each subsequent concussion.

So for a player with Franzen's history, the odds are stacked against him more than the average player.

Exactly true. Ask any nurologist about concussions and ask him how many is too many. The answer to that question is that 1 concussion in a lifetime is already too many to have. There is no such thing as a mild, or severe or light concussion. They are all severe and all are serious. If I had that many concussions and symptoms as Johan has had I probably would've hung it up a year or 2 ago. He still has more than half his life to live through and living it in a wheel chair drooling and be a vegetable is not worth any cost.

 

[odin1981]

Exactly true. Ask any nurologist about concussions and ask him how many is too many. The answer to that question is that 1 concussion in a lifetime is already too many to have. There is no such thing as a mild, or severe or light concussion. They are all severe and all are serious. If I had that many concussions and symptoms as Johan has had I probably would've hung it up a year or 2 ago. He still has more than half his life to live through and living it in a wheel chair drooling and be a vegetable is not worth any cost.

I have had 3 and I believe that is false though I will admit that the 3rd one surprised me in how I got it compared too the first two. It is pretty much a given that if you are a pro hockey or pro football player at least at some point in time you will suffer from one. Granted maybe not the kickers lol.

The concussions I have had where never major. I had 2 mid level ones and 1 low level one. People are just mainly weaklings now in this current society and have no stomach for physical hardship any longer. So they complain endlessly about **** now. If you play a physical sport or perform a job where physical activity occurs it is never outta the realm that a accident or purposeful situation can lead to injuries of which concussions are about.

Though with Franzen if the report by the Neuorologist over the summer was correct he should have been LTIR'd immediately. The report where he said after looking over either test results or his history record where he had 10 or more concussions. If anyone has that many verified concussions it is not safe in the slightest to continue the activity which brings them that.

I just am hopeful he doesn't try to come back and take a serious one that leads to a lifetime of bad effects from it. If he was still having headaches from the one in March over the summer the doc who cleared him for contact should have his license revoked. I am not in any way dramatizing this. If you knowingly clear someone for an at risk activity when they are still suffering from something you just failed your hippocratic oath and you suck at life and deserve to be inflicted with whatever effect that happens to your patient out of karmic retribution and gross negligence.

It ultimately comes down to the individual though if they want to "roll the dice" and take a shot at crapping out. And if everything was explained to them and they understand it and still want too oh well. However medically concussions are really lacking in research and most if not all the reports are very entry level in scope at this point in time. So ultimately it will take probably close to 1-2 decades of research before more in's and out's of the affliction are understood.

Obviously it is better to have none then 1 in this department but far too much is unknown in relation to research. And the effects of concussions are not readily known yet. Granted the people that have many multiple ones should be very easily understood to be not good for you health wise but it really factors into the unknown at the moment because there haven't been many studies at all about this.

Though with the footballs (american) player association contributing stuff and studies being undertaken now the should eventually have data. Also some of the hockey enforcers contributing there organs after they passed on as well. But it would really help the medical community if players of high risk physical sports (hockey, football, and rugby off the top of my head) would come forward into private testing for more to be known and understood.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

I have had 3 and I believe that is false though I will admit that the 3rd one surprised me in how I got it compared too the first two. It is pretty much a given that if you are a pro hockey or pro football player at least at some point in time you will suffer from one. Granted maybe not the kickers lol.

The concussions I have had where never major. I had 2 mid level ones and 1 low level one. People are just mainly weaklings now in this current society and have no stomach for physical hardship any longer. So they complain endlessly about **** now. If you play a physical sport or perform a job where physical activity occurs it is never outta the realm that a accident or purposeful situation can lead to injuries of which concussions are about.

Though with Franzen if the report by the Neuorologist over the summer was correct he should have been LTIR'd immediately. The report where he said after looking over either test results or his history record where he had 10 or more concussions. If anyone has that many verified concussions it is not safe in the slightest to continue the activity which brings them that.

I just am hopeful he doesn't try to come back and take a serious one that leads to a lifetime of bad effects from it. If he was still having headaches from the one in March over the summer the doc who cleared him for contact should have his license revoked. I am not in any way dramatizing this. If you knowingly clear someone for an at risk activity when they are still suffering from something you just failed your hippocratic oath and you suck at life and deserve to be inflicted with whatever effect that happens to your patient out of karmic retribution and gross negligence.

It ultimately comes down to the individual though if they want to "roll the dice" and take a shot at crapping out. And if everything was explained to them and they understand it and still want too oh well. However medically concussions are really lacking in research and most if not all the reports are very entry level in scope at this point in time. So ultimately it will take probably close to 1-2 decades of research before more in's and out's of the affliction are understood.

Obviously it is better to have none then 1 in this department but far too much is unknown in relation to research. And the effects of concussions are not readily known yet. Granted the people that have many multiple ones should be very easily understood to be not good for you health wise but it really factors into the unknown at the moment because there haven't been many studies at all about this.

Though with the footballs (american) player association contributing stuff and studies being undertaken now the should eventually have data. Also some of the hockey enforcers contributing there organs after they passed on as well. But it would really help the medical community if players of high risk physical sports (hockey, football, and rugby off the top of my head) would come forward into private testing for more to be known and understood.

Couldn't agree more on this. There is enough evidence with the CTE findings on hockey players (Boogard and others) and football (Junior Seau and others) to make intelligent decisions and take appropriate action at this point.

If Franzen is having concussion issues, he should never touch the ice again... for his own good.

 

[needzmoarcleary]

Couldn't agree more on this. There is enough evidence with the CTE findings on hockey players (Boogard and others) and football (Junior Seau and others) to make intelligent decisions and take appropriate action at this point.

If Franzen is having concussion issues, he should never touch the ice again... for his own good.

yes I agree as well. I had 5 diagnosed concussions while playing hockey when I was in highschool (played AAA then varisty for my highschool) and probably a few more undiagnosed throughout my playing time. The whole Frazen thing really hits home to me I guess reading about him not being able to play with his kids and whatnot. Similar to the stuff I dealt with when I had all those head injuries. My parents thought I was just not caring about anything and had lost my drive and enthusiasm, when in reality was suffering from similar symptoms as him. Against my parents and doctors orders I tried to get cleared to play my Senior year, when asked if I had any head injuries I stumbled on the question and the doc goes if you've had more than 2 which judging by your medical records I can see you have, you can't and I wont allow you to play due to the risk of further injury. Kind of shocked he got cleared to play really with his history.

 

[Chip39]

If your doc is not a neurologist it's hard to take that as fact. And if he/she is there a lot of different opinions right now

 

[BinCookin]

yes I agree as well. I had 5 diagnosed concussions while playing hockey when I was in highschool (played AAA then varisty for my highschool) and probably a few more undiagnosed throughout my playing time. The whole Frazen thing really hits home to me I guess reading about him not being able to play with his kids and whatnot. Similar to the stuff I dealt with when I had all those head injuries. My parents thought I was just not caring about anything and had lost my drive and enthusiasm, when in reality was suffering from similar symptoms as him. Against my parents and doctors orders I tried to get cleared to play my Senior year, when asked if I had any head injuries I stumbled on the question and the doc goes if you've had more than 2 which judging by your medical records I can see you have, you can't and I wont allow you to play due to the risk of further injury. Kind of shocked he got cleared to play really with his history.

There is of course a grey area here for the Doctor.

Highschool sports vs someones livelyhood is slightly different.

MEDICALLY speaking Sidney Crosby had a severe concussion, and should probably never play hockey again.

Anyone with a severe concussion should probably never play hockey again. BUT...

We are talking about possible danger of FUTURE concussions with that diagnosis.

What the main point I think they make when they clear players.. is "are you healthy now".

If they get to healthy NOW. Then the doctor says "you are clear to play, but I highly advise you NOT to play again" Another injury like this could be bad.

Well if 1 concussion is too much, as a doctor I would advise ALL my hockey players to retire. But you just cant do things that way.

I will agree though, it seems Franzen was cleared to play THIS TIME, FAR FAR too early. Seems Franzen knew it, or maybe the doctor caught a symptom and reversed his decision to Franzen's dissapproval. Maybe in this case the Doctor is doing a good job to keep him off the ice AFTER he appeared to be healthy, and then reversed his decision with a few small symptoms. Maybe Franzen is livid about this. Maybe Franzen took himself out.

Who knows. Either way its all debatable. But i would say if you have had 4-5-6 concussions. The odds that you should NOT be cleared by a doctor are getting up to dangerous levels. (medically 1 BAD concussion might be worse than 3-4-5 of them) Medically Crosby might be more at risk than Skinner or Franzen. But who really knows deep down. Both Skinner and Crosby are supposedly symptom free right now. So they are cleared to play. FUTURE risks might be quite bad with either OR neither of them! You just never know.

 

[Satrebil]

If Franzen is having concussion issues, he should never touch the ice again... for his own good.

How can you say this? This is HIS livelihood.

 

[Yemack]

How can you say this - this is HIS livelihood.

it is precisely the reason it is his livelihood that he ... or someone in charge of him, should have been more careful. Sure 'never touching the ice again' is bit extreme but why was he trying to rush, trying to make it in to training camp, while clearly suffering from the issue occasionally.

of course, we all wish for the best scenario. So did I. And I admire the courage from Franzen. it must have not been easy decision. But deep down, I knew the chance of him finishing the season healthy was improbable. Even if the other players weren't going to be targeting his head, (who knows), just the nature of hockey as a violent contact sports and 82 game schedule plus if we make playoff... just not a great environment to try to come back in a hurry if you are clearly suffering from multiple concussion symptoms and next one could be the last.

 

[Shaman464]

How can you say this? This is HIS livelihood.

I have very little sympathy for this argument. He has made millions playing a game. I am researching a rare and deadly childhood cancer and barely scrape by. If he goes on LTIR until his contract is up he will retire a rich man.

He shouldn't be allowed to play until he has shown 90 days of intense exercise/rest cycles without post-concussion symptoms. Until then let him enjoy his loads of money, loving family, and star status.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

How can you say this? This is HIS livelihood.

i think its called being a human being

empathy and sympathy are two of those traits

i want franzen to have a healthy next 50 years with his family not skate around the Joe as a 15 minute a night 3rd liner for the next two

 

[The Zermanator]

How can you say this? This is HIS livelihood.

It's not his livelihood, he gets paid even on LTIR. His health is the issue, short term and long term. No sense harming the 40+ years of life after hockey just to squeeze a few more, increasingly dangerous, years from hockey.

 

[TheOtherOne]

I am researching a rare and deadly childhood cancer and barely scrape by.

High five, fellow grad student

 

[TheOtherOne]

I find it completely bizarre that we're debating this at such length.

Step back and realize that we're talking about playing a dangerous, physical game for money and fun.

Yes, if you have had a concussion, doctors can and should and probably do advise you not to play again. But if you're a grown man who is well-informed and understands the risks you can take that advice however you want.

In fact, if you are the healthiest person on the planet, and you ask a medical professional "should I play a game that involves ice skating at the highest human speeds possible, throwing myself into other people, and swinging wooden sticks as hard as we can to make a chunk of hard rubber fly at 100mph at eye level?"

Frankly anyone should advise against that. It's just a stupid, stupid idea. Just like jumping out of a plane for no reason is a stupid idea. Skiing is a stupid idea. Cliff diving is a stupid idea. Skateboarding is a stupid idea.

Medically, in terms of risk, if you are concerned about your long-term health and well-being, everybody should be advised against all of these things. There is no good reason to do any of them.

But we're all grown adults who can assess our own risks and make our own stupid decisions, and we want to have fun, so we say **** it.

If Franzen was well-informed about the risks, and he still said **** it, I say power to the Mule.

Yes, it will be sad if he ruins his life, but beyond that there is nothing to debate, and it should not change the fact that everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions.

 

[The Zermanator]

I find it completely bizarre that we're debating this at such length.

Step back and realize that we're talking about playing a dangerous, physical game for money and fun.

Yes, if you have had a concussion, doctors can and should and probably do advise you not to play again. But if you're a grown man who is well-informed and understands the risks you can take that advice however you want.

In fact, if you are the healthiest person on the planet, and you ask a medical professional "should I play a game that involves ice skating at the highest human speeds possible, throwing myself into other people, and swinging wooden sticks as hard as we can to make a chunk of hard rubber fly at 100mph at eye level?"

Frankly anyone should advise against that. It's just a stupid, stupid idea. Just like jumping out of a plane for no reason is a stupid idea. Skiing is a stupid idea. Cliff diving is a stupid idea. Skateboarding is a stupid idea.

Medically, in terms of risk, if you are concerned about your long-term health and well-being, everybody should be advised against all of these things. There is no good reason to do any of them.

But we're all grown adults who can assess our own risks and make our own stupid decisions, and we want to have fun, so we say **** it.

If Franzen was well-informed about the risks, and he still said **** it, I say power to the Mule.

Yes, it will be sad if he ruins his life, but beyond that there is nothing to debate, and it should not change the fact that everyone should be allowed to make their own decisions.

It's not that simple. If Franzen (or anyone else) is seriously re-injured, there are going to be liability issues for the league and other parties. Look at the class-action suits that have already been filed against the league over concussions.

The brain is not something to be taken lightly. If Franzen wants to play contrary to doctors' opinions that's his prerogative, whether the team or league allows him is another matter entirely. If Franzen cannot handle run of the mill NHL physicality then he shouldn't play. He wasn't hit particularly hard this season yet his symptoms have re-surfaced. Terrible idea for him to lace them up again.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Exactly true. Ask any nurologist about concussions and ask him how many is too many. The answer to that question is that 1 concussion in a lifetime is already too many to have. There is no such thing as a mild, or severe or light concussion. They are all severe and all are serious. If I had that many concussions and symptoms as Johan has had I probably would've hung it up a year or 2 ago. He still has more than half his life to live through and living it in a wheel chair drooling and be a vegetable is not worth any cost.

Hockey and the NHL have been around a very long time. I think it is safe to say concussions have to. How many players are in wheel chairs drooling on themselves? I am asking because I don't know the answer but also because I haven't heard of any. Could it be that there is a lot of exaggerated hyperbole over the issue in recent years? Could some of it be raised by player's unions in all the major sports as a negotiating tactic? Seems recently concussions are everywhere.

 

[TheOtherOne]

It's not that simple. If Franzen (or anyone else) is seriously re-injured, there are going to be liability issues for the league and other parties. Look at the class-action suits that have already been filed against the league over concussions.

The brain is not something to be taken lightly. If Franzen wants to play contrary to doctors' opinions that's his prerogative, whether the team or league allows him is another matter entirely. If Franzen cannot handle run of the mill NHL physicality then he shouldn't play. He wasn't hit particularly hard this season yet his symptoms have re-surfaced. Terrible idea for him to lace them up again.

If you want to discuss the legal issues that's a whole different story and I see no reason for the fans to worry about that nonsense.

 

[The Zermanator]

If you want to discuss the legal issues that's a whole different story and I see no reason for the fans to worry about that nonsense.

Whether the fans care or not is irrelevant, if it keeps the player off the ice then it impacts the fans.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Whether the fans care or not is irrelevant, if it keeps the player off the ice then it impacts the fans.

My whole point (that you quoted and responded to, presumably on purpose) was that it's pointless for the fans to debate whether or not a grown man should decide to risk his health to play a game.

You respond with "but but legal issues".

What is irrelevant now?

 

[sean3250]

It literally took Franzen 25 minutes of ice time for him to have recurring concussion symptoms. He is done. Even if he comes back, he's not gonna make it more than 5 games.

 

[The Zermanator]

My whole point (that you quoted and responded to, presumably on purpose) was that it's pointless for the fans to debate whether or not a grown man should decide to risk his health to play a game.

You respond with "but but legal issues".

What is irrelevant now?

Ok, let's get snippy then.

You said it should be Franzen's choice. Not true since there are medical protocols which have to be followed. And because of recent increased attention towards concussions and their long term effects there are legal ramifications for the NHL. Because of this, the NHL will likely become more cautious regarding concussions.

Therefore, the medical and legal considerations are both relevant when discussing Franzen returning and thus, the fans being able to watch him play.

And if you think this debate is pointless, why visit the Franzen injury report thread?

 

[TheOtherOne]

Oh my god are you even reading anything or are you just quoting my posts and then posting whatever random thing you think up?

This is as clear as I can make it:
The fans have NO BUSINESS telling Franzen whether or not the risk of injury is worth it.

The point I am making has nothing to do with medical protocols or legal ramifications.

If you are interested in telling Franzen he should stay off the ice, then you need to hunt down every extreme sports athlete in the world and whine to them about how they are liable to hurt themselves in a grandmothery tone, otherwise you're being hypocritical.

 

[Yemack]

Oh my god are you even reading anything or are you just quoting my posts and then posting whatever random thing you think up?

This is as clear as I can make it:
The fans have NO BUSINESS telling Franzen whether or not the risk of injury is worth it.

The point I am making has nothing to do with medical protocols or legal ramifications.

If you are interested in telling Franzen he should stay off the ice, then you need to hunt down every extreme sports athlete in the world and whine to them about how they are liable to hurt themselves in a grandmothery tone, otherwise you're being hypocritical.

there's a degree to risk further serious injury and the science and the law haven't really given us clear indication of what stance we should take on this particular issue. It is perfectly ok for us to discuss whether a guy who is one or maybe two hit to the head to a permanent retirement and significant cost in quality of life, should actually risk further when he's still suffering from the previous symptoms. I dont know why you flip out at people only looking at from your angle.

even then how do you know if some of us feel the same way about the other extreme sports athlete who making less than optimal decision regarding their injuries and risk suffering similar damage? I'm not some white knight trying to bring moral justice or whatever. The issue came up on a team that I follow passionately and I just voiced my opinion. Now I gotta go hunt down other athletes for this crusade? This is my personal opinon, but I viewed Franzen making out this season or next healthy as less than 25% (i'm being ridiculously generous). You can bet that if I'm a fan of an extreme sports that risk of serious brain injury is 75%, you will see me definitely complaining. Although I dont know why that kind sports would be allowed in first place. maybe it's time similar thing happen in hockey? food for thought

TheOtherOne, I respect you as a recognized poster here and I hear your side of opinion loud and clear, but with all due respect, it is you who have no business telling us we should be discussing.

 

[Retire91]

Oh my god are you even reading anything or are you just quoting my posts and then posting whatever random thing you think up?

This is as clear as I can make it:
The fans have NO BUSINESS telling Franzen whether or not the risk of injury is worth it.

The point I am making has nothing to do with medical protocols or legal ramifications.

If you are interested in telling Franzen he should stay off the ice, then you need to hunt down every extreme sports athlete in the world and whine to them about how they are liable to hurt themselves in a grandmothery tone, otherwise you're being hypocritical.

That's rediculous the fans have every right to have an oppinion on a matter invovling the team and players they are a fan of. Also people are hypocritical by nature you really should start accepting that.

The guy is obviously a wounded warrior for fans to not want him to go back into battle is pretty understandable. Sure it can happen to everyone. Sure everyone steping on the ice has at least a 1% chance of getting a concussion that day. But that is different then watching a guy that can't get through a game without symptoms. This has been played out before. The guy has two choices, call it a day. Or drag this out in a long frustrating and potentially harmful string of failed comebacks. Most people would rather not see the second option.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Okay let me back the **** up for a minute because I'm being completely misinterpreted.

The key is the first 5 words I used to start this whole conversation. "I find it completely bizarre".

I'm not trying to tell you guys what opinions you should have. I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just telling you what I think.

In a world filled with countless thrill seekers who constantly go out of their way to do stupid, completely pointless things for fun, I think it's bizarre that a huge fanbase endlessly debates whether or not Franzen is making the right decision by skating.

Most of these people will see a news clip of somebody doing a double backflip flying through the air above a steep icy slope and say "cool" without giving it a second thought.

Maybe Franzen is being an idiot. Maybe he is addicted to the thrill. It doesn't matter to me. I support his right to make whatever idiotic decisions he wants to, and I think legal or medical professionals getting in his way for any other reason than to make sure that he's well-informed of the risks are all wasting their time.